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  1. #5951
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    Do you prefer your men to be purebred Aryan, Herman?

  2. #5952
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    This guy sounds just a tad contrived
    Which guy/post are you referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Fine way to honor the agreement.
    There doesn't seem, to me, to be any general ceasefire mentioned.

    There appears to be this:
    Russia, Ukraine Sign UN-Mediated Grain Deal in Istanbul

    "Russia and Ukraine have agreed to ensure a safe passage of vessels shipping grain in the Black Sea and abstain from attacking them.


    "Both parties ... have agreed that, there should be no attacks on any of the vessels going from those ports out of territorial waters into the Black Sea and out by any party. So there will be a safe passage," the UN official said."

    https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/1401...Deal-in-Isanbl

    The WP says:Russia attacks Odessa port a day after signing grain deal, Ukraine says

    By Ellen Francis
    ,
    Kareem Fahim

    and
    Claire Parker


    Updated July 23, 2022 at 12:50 p.m. ED

    “The Russians told us they had absolutely nothing to do with this attack and they were examining the issue very closely and in detail,” he said in remarks to reporters in the city of Kayseri. “We are also disturbed by this.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...ukraine-grain/

    It would be useful to see the official documentation, in english, though.
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  3. #5953
    Thailand Expat
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    There doesn't seem, to me, to be any general ceasefire mentioned.
    The agreement is supposed to protect the port.

  4. #5954
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    There doesn't seem, to me, to be any general ceasefire mentioned.
    so you see the ongoing Russian bombardment of the port city an acceptable element of the bi-partisan deal to ensure grain exports are protected?

  5. #5955
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    Quote Originally Posted by malmomike77 View Post
    so you see the ongoing Russian bombardment of the port city an acceptable element of the bi-partisan deal to ensure grain exports are protected?

    It was not just the City, it was a direct assault at the port.

  6. #5956
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Which guy/post are you referring to?
    Sorry about that.

    Next time.

  7. #5957
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Duplicitous Russian c u n t s cannot be trusted. They are liars and scumbags.

  8. #5958
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    Are they as bad as the chinkies 'arry?

  9. #5959
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    The agreement is supposed to protect the port.
    The posting of the official agreements may verify your assumption. Until then all is speculation.

  10. #5960
    Viva Ukraine
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Are they as bad as the chinkies 'arry?
    Oh what a surprise, the defender of the indefensible rears its ugly head.

  11. #5961
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    The posting of the official agreements may verify your assumption. Until then all is speculation.
    It is published and includes port facilities.

  12. #5962
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Duplicitous Russian c u n t s cannot be trusted. They are liars and scumbags.
    The Russians didn't stick to any conventions during the First and Second World Wars. They haven't even signed it yet. Besides, had the Russians ever made a declaration of war? After all, they have waged about 300 wars against their neighbors since Tsar Peter. Zhukov writes z. B. about the attack he himself led on the Japanese in Manchuria in August 1939 of an undeclared war. The attack on Germany, Austria and Turkey in 1914 after covert mobilization was not preceded by a declaration of war.


    Never trust a Russian !

  13. #5963
    Thailand Expat russellsimpson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HermantheGerman View Post
    The Russians didn't stick to any conventions during the First and Second World Wars. They haven't even signed it yet. Besides, had the Russians ever made a declaration of war? After all, they have waged about 300 wars against their neighbors since Tsar Peter. Zhukov writes z. B. about the attack he himself led on the Japanese in Manchuria in August 1939 of an undeclared war. The attack on Germany, Austria and Turkey in 1914 after covert mobilization was not preceded by a declaration of war.


    Never trust a Russian !

    There are some good historical observations here but you have streched the truth in many otthers . Certainly many points for discussion.

    Austria at that point ( 1914 ) was a proxy for the Kaiser, perhaps much like Ukraine tody. Just sayin' eh.

  14. #5964
    Thailand Expat harrybarracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Are they as bad as the chinkies 'arry?
    I would say marginally worse as the chinkies haven't got round to bombing civilians yet.

  15. #5965
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    Quote Originally Posted by HermantheGerman View Post
    The Russians didn't stick to any conventions during the First and Second World Wars.
    This coming from a German - Surely he cannot be that thick.

    Let’s see how the Krauts measured up:

    For starters

    WW1
    Civilian massacres Belgium and Northern France 1014
    Use of the following gases on opposing troops:Mustard, Chlorine, Phosgene and Bromine,

    WW11

    Breaking of the Versailles treaty and Locarno Pact for starters
    Holocaust was a biggy
    La Paradis massacre (of British troops)
    Normandy massacre (of Canadian troops)
    etc

    the list would be endless.


    Well Herman are you that thick?

  16. #5966
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Whether you consider it propaganda, or valid, or not, I think it is important in any conflict situation to try and understand the other parties POV.
    What utter crap. Why do you think it is important to 'try to understand the other parties' when the stance is taken by the Politbüreau and consists of nothing but lies?



    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    Austria at that point ( 1914 ) was a proxy for the Kaiser, perhaps much like Ukraine tody. Just sayin' eh.
    Nope, not at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    This coming from a German - Surely he cannot be that thick.
    I don't see him saying that Germany did . . .

  17. #5967
    Chinese spy sabang's Avatar
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    ^ This is why, in spite of your family background, you would never have made it as a Diplomat PH.

  18. #5968
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman123 View Post
    This coming from a German - Surely he cannot be that thick.

    Let’s see how the Krauts measured up:

    For starters

    WW1
    Civilian massacres Belgium and Northern France 1014
    Use of the following gases on opposing troops:Mustard, Chlorine, Phosgene and Bromine,

    WW11

    Breaking of the Versailles treaty and Locarno Pact for starters
    Holocaust was a biggy
    La Paradis massacre (of British troops)
    Normandy massacre (of Canadian troops)
    etc

    the list would be endless.


    Well Herman are you that thick?

    If you are going to play stupid and start the blame game please add the U.K. . Now that list is really endless.

    But just as a reminder we are in the year 2022.
    The name of this thread is "How dangerous is Putler"
    ...and Russia is at War with Europe.

    Keep your childish emotions contained little boy.

  19. #5969
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    ^ This is why, in spite of your family background, you would never have made it as a Diplomat PH.


    Beating your backround would be the lowest margin here on TD

  20. #5970
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    Quote Originally Posted by russellsimpson View Post
    There are some good historical observations here but you have streched the truth in many otthers . Certainly many points for discussion.

    Austria at that point ( 1914 ) was a proxy for the Kaiser, perhaps much like Ukraine tody. Just sayin' eh.

    Dafuc?

    Austria was a sovereign country, actually just like Ukraine today.

  21. #5971
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    This is why
    What is 'why'? And you'd be disappointed if you knew how I started out. But seriously, I'm intrigued . . . why?

  22. #5972
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    Quote Originally Posted by HermantheGerman View Post
    If you are going to play stupid and start the blame game please add the U.K. . Now that list is really endless.

    But just as a reminder we are in the year 2022.
    .
    Then why did you reference the Russians behaviour in WW1 and WW11 see your post #5962

    You have clearly stated that we can’t trust the Russians.
    Any chance of a shortlist of who we can trust?

  23. #5973
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    It is published and includes port facilities.
    Great, in English, do you have a link to share?

  24. #5974
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    July 24, 2022 by M. K. BHADRAKUMAR

    Ukraine grain deal is a feel-good event. But road to peace is long and winding



    How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?-08_3col_3_russia-grains-jpg

    Combines work on a wheat field near the village of Talniki in Siberia (File photo). For the first time since the days of the tsars, Russia has emerged in recent years as the world’s largest wheat exporter

    "The agreements signed in Istanbul on Friday regarding the export of grain out of Ukraine and Russia catch the headlines as a major development from the angle of global food security, which it surely is. Between around 22 million tonnes of grain from last year’s harvest now trapped inside Ukraine due to the war, and an estimated 41 million tonnes from Russia’s 2022/23 wheat exports, around 60 million tonnes, are reaching the world grain market.

    A conservative estimate is that Russia’s 2022 wheat crop will reach 85 million tonnes and if the weather holds good, it may go up to 90 million tonnes, a record harvest. Suffice to say, Russia’s importance to the global wheat balance in the new season is likely to be unprecedented. Supplies from Russia will account for more than 20 percent of the 2022/23 global wheat trade, consolidating its position as the world’s number one wheat exporting country.

    Thus, two sets of agreements were signed in Istanbul, one relating to the modalities of transportation of the Ukrainian grain from three designated ports on the Black Sea — Odessa, Chornomorsk and Yuzhne — via a “grain corridor” to Turkey and a second one between Russia and the United Nations relating to the lifting of western sanctions on Russia’s exports of wheat and fertiliser.

    In reality, Russia is getting sanctions waiver from the West even as it is facilitating the operation of the “grain corridor” out of Ukrainian ports in the war zone. Is there a linkage between the two? The answer is “yes” and “no”. But the Russian blockade of Ukrainian ports followed the western restrictions on shipping and insurance for Russian ports was more than a coincidence.

    Therefore, this is a political victory for Russia — apart from substantial income out of the exports (roughly, $20 billion) and continued Russian presence in the important markets in Africa, the West Asian region, etc. which has strategic implications for Russian foreign policy in the medium and long term.

    Under the agreement, Ukrainian vessels would guide ships in and out of Ukraine’s heavily mined ports, and Russia would agree not to attack the area while shipments were moving. Turkey’s role will be to inspect ships leaving Ukrainian ports for smuggled arms. In effect, Turkey has emerged as a broker between Russia and Ukraine under UN supervision from a Joint Coordination Centre being set up in Istanbul for the implementation of the accord.

    The fact that Russia and Ukraine could strike a deal at all is important enough. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has welcomed the grain deal in Istanbul as “a positive step towards addressing the far-reaching impacts of Russia’s war… The international community must now hold Russia accountable for this deal.” The Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, on his part, said Moscow finds it “gratifying that Washington and Brussels have stopped obstructing the path toward an agreement on grain.”

    Things are adding up

    The big question is whether this development and the “feel-good” it created in a “win-win” spirit betwixt two warring nations would have any downstream impact. The indications are mostly discouraging but the dawn of peace often breaks unexpectedly.
    The military situation in Ukraine is somewhat static at the moment, although it can change abruptly. There have been no breakthroughs on the front lines since Russian forces seized the last two Ukrainian-held cities in the eastern province of Luhansk in late June and early July. The Russian operations in the Donetsk region have generally slowed down in the past fortnight but that could be attributed to the hilly terrain surrounding the key city of Slavyansk, which is of strategic importance. (The Ukrainian steppes begin to the west of Slavyansk.)

    Meanwhile, a new phase of the war has commenced with the deployment of the HIMARS (High Mobility Artillery Rocket System) supplied by Pentagon, which fires GPS-guided rockets at targets 80 kilometres away, a distance that puts it out of reach of most Russian artillery systems. Conceivably, it bolsters Ukraine’s strike capability. But then, HIMARS is neither a game changer nor a compensation for the vast depletion of Ukrainian fighting capabilities during these 5 months of fighting, which will take years to recoup.

    Kiev seems to believe that its gradually increasing supply of Western arms, such as HIMARS, will enable it to recapture lost territory. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky hailed Friday’s grain deal as unlocking around $10 billion worth of grain exports, but on the war as such, he said there could be no ceasefire unless lost territory was retaken.

    Zelensky said, “”Freezing the conflict with the Russian Federation means a pause that gives the Russian Federation a break for rest. They will not use this pause to change their geopolitics or to renounce their claims on the former Soviet republics.” The White House on Friday also announced $270 million in fresh support for Kiev, which includes four more HIMARS and up to 580 Phoenix Ghost drones, “produced specifically for Ukraine.”

    That said, the fact remains that the wheat deal is yet another instance of sanctions waiver by the European Union, where its own interests are also involved. In particular, shortage of fertiliser has become a hot button issue in Europe, which recently witnessed farmers’ protests.

    To be sure, things are adding up. The EU is increasingly hard-pressed to come up with credible sanction packages anymore. In the latest instance, after oil and gas and fertiliser, the EU blocked a proposal on Thursday to sanction a Russian metals company, which is a critical supplier of titanium to Airbus.

    The Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban probably articulated a thought that is gaining ground in the European mind when he said in a speech in Romania on Saturday that the EU needs a new strategy on the war in Ukraine, as the sanctions against Moscow have not worked. “A new strategy is needed which should focus peace talks and drafting a good peace proposal … instead of winning the war,” Orban said.

    Orban recalled that the Western strategy has been built on four pillars: the first that Ukraine would win a war against Russia with NATO weapons; second, that sanctions would weaken Russia and destabilise its leadership; third, that sanctions would hurt Russia more than Europe; and, fourth, that the world would line up in support of Europe.
    This strategy has failed, according to Orban, as governments in Europe are collapsing “like dominoes”, energy prices have surged and a new strategy was needed now. “We are sitting in a car that has a puncture in all four tires, it is absolutely clear that the war cannot be won in this way,” he said, adding that Ukraine will never win the war this way “quite simply because the Russian army has asymmetrical dominance.”

    Significantly, aside the plain-speak, the salience of Orban’s speech was his call for US-Russia talks. “Only Russian-US talks can put an end to the conflict because Russia wants security guarantees” only Washington can give, Orban said.
    Orban’s speech came just two days after an unannounced visit to Moscow by the Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto on Thursday, ostensibly on a mission to discuss with his counterpart FM Sergey Lavrov the possibility of securing more gas supplies from Russia. Interestingly, Szijjarto flew to Moscow from Washington.

    While in Washington, in an interview with the Washington Times, Szijjarto called for immediate talks to end the war in Ukraine, saying “all wars end up in negotiations” and the world should be focused on how to achieve peace by quickly bringing about a cessation of the nearly five-month-old conflict.
    Of course, Orban’s credentials to facilitate US-Russia talks are impeccable — and matchless. The known unknown here is whether there is sufficient interest among the warring parties to freeze the conflict at this point. Russia seems to insist that any peace talks at this stage would have to recognise its control over not only Donbass but the southern regions of Kherson and Zaporizhia as well. There is also talk of the special military operations going far beyond its originally set parameters. Indeed, the Kharkiv front has become kinetic.

    The Moscow press and TV have been reporting that preparations are under way to hold referendum in Kherson and Zaporizhia on their integration into Russia. On Wednesday, on the eve of the “feel-good” news regarding the grain deal, the White House spokesman John Kirby alleged that “Russia is beginning to roll out a version of what you could call an annexation playbook” and that there is “ample evidence in the intelligence and in the public domain” of Russia’s unfolding efforts, which include installing the ruble as the national currency in the areas it intends to annex, just as it did in Crimea.

    One way of deciphering Kirby’s rhetoric is that it could be an opening shot? But the paradox is that the longer the war continues, the bigger becomes Russia’s scale of demands and by autumn / winter, Russian demands may well include Kharkiv — and, quite possibly, the Odessa Region as well.

    ‘Why Biden Failed’

    On the other hand, the geopolitical reality is that Russia’s diplomatic space to manoeuvre is also expanding and possibly outstripping Washington. For instance, in the critical West Asian theatre which has historically been important for the western Cold War strategy against the former Soviet Union, President Biden tried to convince the nine Arab leaders he met in Jeddah last week that a reviving Cold War is coming to the Middle East and to sign up on the side of the US against Russia (and China), but “found no takers for his message, even when he added Iran to the equation,” to quote David Ottaway at the Wilson Center.

    The public silence of those Arab leaders when it came to Biden’s talk of a Cold War or even the US and Israeli confrontation with Iran over its accelerating nuclear program was deafening. Again, on Tuesday, the ringing endorsement of Russia’s war in Ukraine by Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei during his meeting with President Putin went further than the Kremlin’s all other allies in backing Moscow in the Ukraine crisis, signalling a much stronger alliance between Moscow and Tehran in the making.
    Meanwhile, in a dramatic display of the reach of Russia’s influence in West Asia, upon his return from Tehran, Putin had a phone conversation with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud “with an emphasis on the expansion of mutually beneficial trade and economic ties” where they “examined developments on the global oil market”; “focused on the importance of further coordination within OPEC+”; and were “pleased to note that the OPEC+ member countries consistently fulfil their obligations in order to maintain the necessary balance and stability in the global energy market.”

    Again, on Thursday, even as the Istanbul agreements on grain exports were signed, Putin signed a decree on the holding of the second Russia-Africa Summit and other events of the Russia-Africa format in Russia in 2023, while on Sunday, Lavrov set out on an Africa tour to follow up, starting with Egypt. No doubt, Russia’s grain supply chains with African countries across the continent being restored now, Lavrov will top up Moscow’s dynamic agenda with African continent with newer areas of cooperation with special attention to the situation around Ukraine.

    The contrast between the America’s and Russia’s creativity on the diplomatic plane couldn’t be sharper. Biden promised a foreign policy in the interests of America’s middle class. What happened to it? Hasn’t the Biden presidency lost the plot? The sooner the Ukraine peace talks begin, the better chance for the western card in the long and difficult negotiations ahead.
    Wisdom lies in seizing the “feel good” over the grain deal to open negotiations with Russia. Or else, 2022 might be the last year Ukraine would have exported its grain through its own ports on the Black Sea. The non-western world that has its priorities worked out on the development agenda and is struggling with recession and the pandemic has no interest in bandwagoning with the US’ new Cold War against Russia and China.

    Surely, there must be some other way to regain America’s leadership role globally? Washington is not realising how much it is in the US interests too to rethink the Ukraine strategy and Russia relations.

    What Biden’s recent tours abroad underscore is that “the damage done by decades of misguided US geopolitics cannot be undone,” while on the other hand, “the economic fallout from the war in Ukraine will push weakened institutions of governance to the point of collapse… (and) the pillars of the US’s own liberal regime are under attack.” These are excerpts from a searing piece titled Why Biden Failed authored by Adam Tooze, the well-known British historian who is a professor at Columbia University and Director of the European Institute.

    Prof. Tooze wrote last week: “Meanwhile, the economic fallout from the war in Ukraine will push weakened institutions of governance to the point of collapse. And as Washington seeks to cajole “democracies against autocracies” abroad, the pillars of the US’s own liberal regime are under attack. The overturning of Roe vs Wade enables the reactionary denial of reproductive rights across red-state America.

    “The (US) Supreme Court is also set on demolishing the legal bases for key environmental regulations… If Biden’s plan was to stabilise US democracy with progressive politics –- an updated New Deal for the 21st century –- the conclusion now is that his presidency has failed.”'

    https://www.indianpunchline.com/ukra...g-and-winding/

  25. #5975
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Here is one example of the agreements "published" by the:

    Interfax-Ukraine News Agency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    It is published and includes port facilities.
    One hopes your source has published a more precise version.

    Not an actual signed document, allegedly a copy "is available" to the Ukraine News Agency who published this:


    18:29 22.07.2022

    Ukraine, Turkey, Russia with UN assistance agree on 120-day-long grain export from Odesa, Chornomorsk, Pivdenny ports


    "Ukraine, Turkey and Russia with the assistance of UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres have agreed on the facilitation of safe shipping for export of grain, food and fertilizers (including ammonia) from the Odesa, Chornomorsk and Pivdenny sea ports during 120 days with the possibility of extension.

    The document (note: singular) was signed in Istanbul on Friday, July 22. Infrastructure Minister of Ukraine Oleksandr Kubrakov in the presence of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan signed the trilateral document, with Defense Minister of Turkey Hulusi Akar and UN Secretary-General, who also signed the second trilateral document with
    (note: a second document)Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

    The initiative is based on agreements of Parties of the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974, says the document, (note: singular) the copy of which is available to the Interfax-Ukraine News Agency.

    In particular, (leaving room for items not published, or agreed) the Parties agreed on the following:

    - all Parties will provide maximum assurances regarding a safe and secure environment for all vessels engaged in this initiative;

    - a Joint Coordination Center (JCC) will be set up in Istanbul under the auspices of the UN and including representatives of all Parties and the UN;

    - inspection teams will be set up in Turkey, consisting from all Parties and the UN, and their primary responsibility will be to check for the absence of unauthorized cargoes and personnel on board vessels inbound to or outbound from the Ukrainian ports.

    All activities in Ukrainian territorial waters will be under authority and responsibility of Ukraine, says the document.

    The Parties will not undertake any attacks against merchant vessels and other civilian vessels and port facilities engaged in this initiative.

    Should demining be required, a minesweeper of another country shall sweep the approaches to the Ukrainian ports, according to the document.

    Merchant vessels will be prior registered in the JCC and will be technically monitored for the duration of their passage through the maritime humanitarian corridor, (Outside Ukraine waters) agreed by all Parties.

    The JCC will develop and disseminate a detailed orientation operational and communications plan, including identification of safe harbors and medical relief options.

    To prevent any provocations and incidents, the movement of vessels transiting the maritime humanitarian corridor will be monitored by the Parties remotely.

    "No military ships, aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) may approach the maritime humanitarian corridor closer than a distance agreed by the JCC, without the authorization of the JCC, and after consultation with all Parties," says the document.

    This initiative will remain in effect for 120 days from the date of signature by all Parties and can be extended automatically for the same period, unless one of the Parties notifies the other of the intent to terminate the initiative, or to modify it.

    At the same time, as Ukraine has stressed numerous times, the signature of the agreement on export of Ukrainian grain does not mean that the security regime in the Black Sea (which annuls the clause "No military ships, aircraft, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) may approach the maritime humanitarian corridor, above) would be relaxed."

    Ukraine, Turkey, Russia with UN assistance agree on 120-day-long grain export from Odesa, Chornomorsk, Pivdenny ports

    Although the agreement is stated to start upon the parties signing them, both documents", Ukraine has stated that is parliament must approve and vote in favour.

    The "News Agency" has not separated the two documents, but has combined the two reports of the documents they have been "provided with", into one "statement".

    The "document" was signed by:The "document" was signed in Istanbul on Friday, July 22.

    Infrastructure Minister of Ukraine Oleksandr Kubrakov, in the presence of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, signed the trilateral document, with Defense Minister of Turkey Hulusi Akar and UN Secretary-General.

    The UN Secretary-General also signed the second, unamed, trilateral document with
    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu."

    Hardly a copy of the original signed unnamed agreements. IMO.

    The UN Secretary General, a signee, likewise has yet to publish this "agreement for the world."
    Last edited by OhOh; 25-07-2022 at 10:56 PM.

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