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  1. #251
    Thailand Expat HermantheGerman's Avatar
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    Ukraine: The Corporate Annexation. “For Cargill, Chevron, Monsanto, It’s a Gold Mine of Profits”


    As the US and EU apply sanctions on Russia over its annexation’ of Crimea, JP Sottile reveals the corporate annexation of Ukraine. For Cargill, Chevron, Monsanto, there’s a gold mine of profits to be made from agri-business and energy exploitation.
    The potential here for agriculture / agribusiness is amazing … production here could double … Ukraine’s agriculture could be a real gold mine.
    On 12th January 2014, a reported 50,000 “pro-Western” Ukrainians descended upon Kiev’s Independence Square to protest against the government of President Viktor Yanukovych.
    Stoked in part by an attack on opposition leader Yuriy Lutsenko, the protest marked the beginning of the end of Yanukovych’s four year-long government.
    That same day, the Financial Times reported a major deal for US agribusiness titan Cargill.
    Business confidence never faltered
    Despite the turmoil within Ukrainian politics after Yanukovych rejected a major trade deal with the European Union just seven weeks earlier, Cargill was confident enough about the future to fork over $200 million to buy a stake in Ukraine’s UkrLandFarming.
    According to the Financial Times, UkrLandFarming is the world’s eighth-largest land cultivator and second biggest egg producer. And those aren’t the only eggs in Cargill’s increasingly ample basket.
    On 13th December 2013, Cargill announced the purchase of a stake in a Black Sea grain terminal at Novorossiysk on Russia’s Black Sea coast.
    The port – to the east of Russia’s strategically and historically important Crimean naval base – gives them a major entry-point to Russian markets and adds them to the list of Big Ag companies investing in ports around the Black Sea, both in Russia and Ukraine.
    Cargill has been in Ukraine for over two decades, investing in grain elevators and acquiring a major Ukrainian animal feed company in 2011. And, based on its investment in UkrLandFarming, Cargill was decidedly confident amidst the post-EU deal chaos.
    It’s a stark juxtaposition to the alarm bells ringing out from the US media, bellicose politicians on Capitol Hill and perplexed policymakers in the White House.
    Instability – what instablility?
    It’s even starker when compared to the anxiety expressed by Morgan Williams, President and CEO of the US-Ukraine Business Council - which, according to its website, has been “Promoting US-Ukraine business relations since 1995.”
    Williams was interviewed by the International Business Times on March 13 and, despite Cargill’s demonstrated willingness to spend, he said, “The instability has forced businesses to just go about their daily business and not make future plans for investment, expansion and hiring more employees.”
    In fact, Williams, who does double-duty as Director of Government Affairs at the private equity firm SigmaBleyzer, claimed, “Business plans have been at a standstill.”
    Apparently, he wasn’t aware of Cargill’s investment, which is odd given the fact that he could’ve simply called Van A. Yeutter, Vice President for Corporate Affairs at Cargill, and asked him about his company’s quite active business plan.
    There is little doubt Williams has the phone number because Mr. Yuetter serves on the Executive Committee of the selfsame US-Ukraine Business Council. It’s quite a cozy investment club, too.
    According to his SigmaBleyzer profile, Williams “started his work regarding Ukraine in 1992″ and has since advised American agribusinesses “investing in the former Soviet Union.” As an experienced fixer for Big Ag, he must be fairly friendly with the folks on the Executive Committee.
    Big Ag luminaries – Monsanto, Eli Lilly, Dupont, John Deere …
    And what a committee it is – it’s a veritable who’s who of Big Ag. Among the luminaries working tirelessly and no doubt selflessly for a better, freer Ukraine are:
    • Melissa Agustin, Director, International Government Affairs & Trade for Monsanto
    • Brigitte Dias Ferreira, Counsel, International Affairs for John Deere
    • Steven Nadherny, Director, Institutional Relations for agriculture equipment-maker CNH Industrial
    • Jeff Rowe, Regional Director for DuPont Pioneer
    • John F. Steele, Director, International Affairs for Eli Lilly & Company
    And, of course, Cargill’s Van A. Yeutter. But Cargill isn’t alone in their warm feelings toward Ukraine. As Reuters reported in May 2013, Monsanto – the largest seed company in the world – plans to build a $140 million “non-GM (genetically modified) corn seed plant in Ukraine.”
    And right after the decision on the EU trade deal, Jesus Madrazo, Monsanto’s Vice President for Corporate Engagement, reaffirmed his company’s “commitment to Ukraine” and “the importance of creating a favorable environment that encourages innovation and fosters the continued development of agriculture.”
    Monsanto’s strategy includes a little “hearts and minds” public relations, too. On the heels of Mr. Madrazo’s reaffirmation, Monsanto announced ”a social development program titled ‘Grain Basket of the Future’ to help rural villagers in the country improve their quality of life.”
    The initiative will dole out grants of up to $25,000 to develop programs providing “educational opportunities, community empowerment, or small business development.”
    Immense economic importance
    The well-crafted moniker ‘Grain Basket of the Future’ is telling because, once upon a time, Ukraine was known as ‘the breadbasket’ of the Soviet Union. The CIA ranks Soviet-era Ukraine second only to Mother Russia as the “most economically important component of the former Soviet Union.”
    In many ways, the farmland of Ukraine was the backbone of the USSR. Its fertile black soil generated over a quarter of the USSR’s agriculture. It exported substantial quantities of food to other republics and its farms generated four times the output of the next-ranking republic.
    Although Ukraine’s agricultural output plummeted in the first decade after the break-up of the Soviet Union, the farming sector has been growing spectacularly in recent years.
    While Europe struggled to shake-off the Great Recession, Ukraine’s agriculture sector grew 13.7% in 2013.
    Ukraine’s agriculture economy is hot. Russia’s is not. Hampered by the effects of climate change and 25 million hectares of uncultivated agricultural land, Russia lags behind its former breadbasket.
    According to the Centre for Eastern Studies, Ukraine’s agricultural exports rose from $4.3 billion in 2005 to $17.9 billion in 2012 and, harkening the heyday of the USSR, farming currently accounts for 25% of its total exports. Ukraine is also the world’s third-largest exporter of wheat and of corn. And corn is not just food. It is also ethanol.
    Feeding Europe
    But people gotta eat – particularly in Europe. As Frank Holmes of US Global Investors assessed in 2011, Ukraine is poised to become Europe’s butcher. Meat is difficult to ship, but Ukraine is perfectly located to satiate Europe’s hunger.
    Just two days after Cargill bought into UkrLandFarming, Global Meat News reported a huge forecasted spike in “all kinds” of Ukrainian meat exports, with an increase of 8.1% overall and staggering 71.4% spike in pork exports.
    No wonder Eli Lilly is represented on the US-Ukraine Business Council’s Executive Committee. Its Elanco Animal Health unit is a major manufacturer of feed supplements.
    And it is also notable that Monsanto’s planned seed plant is non-GMO, perhaps anticipating an emerging GMO-unfriendly European market and Europe’s growing appetite for organic foods. When it comes to Big Ag’s profitable future in Europe, the stakes couldn’t be higher.
    A long string of Russian losses
    For Russia and its hampered farming economy, it’s another in a long string of losses to US encroachment – from NATO expansion into Eastern Europe to US military presence to its south and onto a major shale gas development deal recently signed by Chevron in Ukraine.
    So, why was Big Ag so bullish on Ukraine, even in the face of so much uncertainty and the predictable reaction by Russia?
    The answer is that the seeds of Ukraine’s turn from Russia have been sown for the last two decades by the persistent Cold War alliance between corporations and foreign policy. It’s a version of the ‘Deep State‘ that is usually associated with the oil and defense industries, but also exists in America’s other heavily subsidized industry – agriculture.
    Morgan Williams is at the nexus of Big Ag’s alliance with US foreign policy. To wit, SigmaBleyzer touts Mr. Williams’ work with ”various agencies of the US government, members of Congress, congressional committees, the Embassy of Ukraine to the US, international financial institutions, think tanks and other organizations on US-Ukraine business, trade, investment and economic development issues.”
    Freedom – for US business
    As President of the US-Ukraine Business Council, Williams has access to Council cohort – David Kramer, President of Freedom House. Officially a non-governmental organization, it has been linked with overt and covert ‘democracy’ efforts in places where the door isn’t open to American interests – aka US corporations.
    Freedom House, the National Endowment for Democracy and National Democratic Institute helped fund and support the Ukrainian ‘Orange Revolution’ in 2004. Freedom House is funded directly by the US Government, the National Endowment for Democracy and the US Department of State.
    David Kramer is a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs and, according to his Freedom House bio page, formerly a Senior Fellow at the Project for the New American Century.
    Nuland’s $5 billion for Ukrainian ‘democracy’
    That puts Kramer and, by one degree of separation, Big Ag fixer Morgan Williams in the company of PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan who, as coincidence would have it, is married to Victoria “F*ck the EU” Nuland, the current Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs.
    Interestingly enough, Ms. Nuland spoke to the US-Ukrainian Foundation last 13th December, extolling the virtues of the Euromaidan movement as the embodiment of “the principles and values that are the cornerstones for all free democracies.”
    Nuland also told the group that the United States had invested more than $5 billion in support of Ukraine’s “European aspirations” – meaning pulling Ukraine away from Russia. She made her remarks on a dais featuring a backdrop emblazoned with a Chevron logo.
    Also, her colleague and phone call buddy US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt helped Chevron cook up their 50-year shale gas deal right in Russia’s kitchen.
    Coca-Cola, Exxon-Mobil, Raytheon
    Although Chevron sponsored that event, it is not listed as a supporter of the Foundation. But the Foundation does list the Coca-Cola Company, ExxonMobil and Raytheon as major sponsors. And, to close the circle of influence, the US-Ukraine Business Council is also listed as a supporter.
    Which brings the story back to Big Ag’s fixer – Morgan Williams.
    Although he was glum about the current state of investment in Ukraine, he’s gotta wear shades when he looks into the future. He told the International Business Times:
    “The potential here for agriculture / agribusiness is amazing … production here could double. The world needs the food Ukraine could produce in the future. Ukraine’s agriculture could be a real gold mine.”
    Of course, his priority is to ensure that the bread of well-connected businesses gets lavishly buttered in Russia’s former breadbasket. And there is no better connected group of Ukraine-interested corporations than American agribusiness.
    Given the extent of US official involvement in Ukrainian politics – including the interesting fact that Ambassador Pyatt pledged US assistance to the new government in investigating and rooting-out corruption – Cargill’s seemingly risky investment strategy probably wasn’t that risky, after all.
    Ukraine: The Corporate Annexation. “For Cargill, Chevron, Monsanto, It’s a Gold Mine of Profits” | Global Research

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    It seems from the various reports that there are accusations of political subterfuge from both sides. i.e. underhand attempts to influence political outcomes. I do note that it seems that the US and the West is being held to a higher standard then the Russians in this matter.

    The allegations from either side may be true or not. Probably we will never know but it is beside the point.

    Political subterfuge to influence political outcomes in other territories is 'in the game'. Everybody knows this even though nobody will ever admit to doing it.

    What is definitely not 'in the game' is massing military forces on a border to support an illegal annexation of strategic parts of your neighbour's territory. Forcible annexation against the will of a neighbour is a relic of the centuries past. Russia has broken a taboo standing for many many decades in engaging in this action. That is why their behaviour is such a threat to the 21st century world order.
    Your view on this is understandable.

    But as you can notice from the people commenting, everyone is tired of this uni-polar Anglo American world order. People are realizing that votes in western democracies mean nothing. There is no difference between cowboy George Bush or Barak Obama. They both continue with the same basic policies. As with the French elections. The little American Nick Sarkozy gets voted out and a self described socialist in Holland gets voted in and Holland gets into the war antics within days of his election. He bows to America's demands, he breaks all of his political promises that he made to get in. This is the same in any election in any country outside of Iran or Russia. This consortium of powers funnels resources from poor countries to their own. They manipulate currencies around the world to get production out of indigenous populations of the poor countries, then they just tax the hell out of the indigenous populations of their own countries, to capture the over valued purchasing power that they granted to them through their manipulations.

    This is the uni polar American world we live in. Votes mean nothing.

    Any actions that go against the axis American world order is welcomed by most people that figured this out. People are willing to put up with Vladimir Putins antics, because he is the only level headed person that is standing up to the American axis.

  3. #253
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    I do note that it seems that the US and the West is being held to a higher standard then the Russians in this matter.
    'We' backed an illegal coup, they backed the secession of an autonomous republic, with a stupendous democratic majority in favor of same. Actions have consequences, and I find the disingenuous hysteria emanating from the US rather pathetic. Do they seriously think they can change it now? nope- they just make themselves appear weak and pathetic. Utterly pointless frankly, and well illustrated by McCain's senile spluttering.

    If, as appears to be the case, some in the US want a new Cold War, they stand to lose Europe as an ally, or at least weaken the alliance. That is pretty dumb.

  4. #254
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    The agreement signed just the other day was peppered with the term "illegal". Unfortunately the term has many meanings to the differing factions.

    The Ukrainian government spokesman has said, "we do not abide by the agreement and will continue the use of military forces to clense the country from illegal insurgents".

    The illegal coup Ukrainian acting government does not think itself illegal hence it will not leave the buildings and military bases it occupies.

    The eastern Ukrainians do not consider their occupation of the buildings illegal as they, the local governments, have held meetings and voted for the actions they have taken.

    Some individual citizens have stopped military force by standing in front of armed army vehicles, they do not feel they are acting illegally.

    Additionally the agreement signatories pleaded not to escalate the situation further.

    NATO has announced it will increase ships in the Baltic to "reassure" its member states. NATO has moved soldiers and military forces to countries on the eastern border of the Ukraine. The US has agreed to send non lethal supplies to the Ukrainian puppet government, for the use of it's troops and any CIA operatives in the country, we all know how the non lethal satellite radios can be used to tell the mercenaries what map co-ordinates the enemy is at. The US and the EU have indicated they will use financial warfare against the Russian people.

    Will the Russians similarly offer "reassurance" to the eastern Ukrainians, will they engage in financial warfare by asking for the Ukrainian gas bill to be paid in Euros or gold, will they supply the Eastern Ukrainians with requested non lethal military hardware? There is not much requirement for them to send ships anywhere as they are able to destroy any ship this side of Brazil from where they are.

    The Russians seem, to me, to have all the responses covered and have plans for the next chapter.

    Looper are you still with us or are you not?
    A tray full of GOLD is not worth a moment in time.

  5. #255
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    An illegal Ukrainian citizen/grandmother,

    she's a terra-rista, (standing her ground),

    stepping in front of an APC, and stopping a column, of like weapons of mass destruction, from "obeying orders" from some illegitimate politician or three/four letter organisation.
    Allegedly.

    Женщина оÑтановила танк (БМД) г.КраматорÑк 17.04 - YouTube

    Will this become the Tianamen Square/Burning Vietnamese girl image, that the word remembers? Maybe the Russians need a few platoons of grandmothers, rather than multi million US$ "stealth" bombers.
    Last edited by OhOh; 19-04-2014 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #256
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    ^
    ^^
    In the same way "Nato" is no more of an "alliance"than a steak is a member of the vegetable family, it seems that sadly these days EU stands for European branch of the United States of America.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    'We' backed an illegal coup, they backed the secession of an autonomous republic, with a stupendous democratic majority in favor of same. Actions have consequences, and I find the disingenuous hysteria emanating from the US rather pathetic. Do they seriously think they can change it now? nope- they just make themselves appear weak and pathetic. Utterly pointless frankly, and well illustrated by McCain's senile spluttering.
    I believe there is more to it than we see in the headlines, the US moves are pretty dumb and suicidal but they keep going into that direction, surely there must be some "hidden" important motives to go that far.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sabang
    'We' backed an illegal coup, they backed the secession of an autonomous republic, with a stupendous democratic majority in favor of same. Actions have consequences, and I find the disingenuous hysteria emanating from the US rather pathetic. Do they seriously think they can change it now? nope- they just make themselves appear weak and pathetic. Utterly pointless frankly, and well illustrated by McCain's senile spluttering.
    I believe there is more to it than we see in the headlines, the US moves are pretty dumb and suicidal but they keep going into that direction, surely there must be some "hidden" important motives to go that far.
    The Americans have to convince themselves that there is a reason to go this far. Putin wants to reassemble the Soveit Union. But Russia is more capitalist then the USA. A new Soveit Union borders wise, is not anything to be feared.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier View Post
    ^
    ^^
    In the same way "Nato" is no more of an "alliance"than a steak is a member of the vegetable family, it seems that sadly these days EU stands for European branch of the United States of America.
    And voting will never change it. Europeans can vote for the most anti American candidate out there and as soon as they get in, they will cower to the Americans. A unipolar world is more dangerous then anything else. The French used to be relied upon to play hardball with the Americans but they have been neutered.

  10. #260
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    Joe Biden said earlier this week "No nation has the right to simply grab land from another nation. We will never recognize Russia’s illegal occupation of Crimea." It left me puzzled, was he talking about Israel? I wanted to find the whole speech, watched it on TV yesterday or so. There were more phrases equivocal like this. So I put the sentence in Google's search box, clicked on about 30 links, and was even more puzzled! No matter whether the provider was American, Arab, Japanese, Canadian; CNN, MSNBC, Dailysabah, Praguepost or whatever, they all had the exact same wording for an article 1,000+ words long! That's creepy.
    Boon Mee: 'Israel is the 51st State. De facto - but none the less, essentially part & parcel of the USA.'

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall
    No matter whether the provider was American, Arab, Japanese, Canadian; CNN, MSNBC, Dailysabah, Praguepost or whatever, they all had the exact same wording for an article 1,000+ words long! That's creepy.
    SOP sadly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall
    Joe Biden said earlier this week "No nation has the right to simply grab land from another nation. We will never recognize Russia’s illegal occupation of Crimea."
    "But sending killer drones to execute people without trial anywhere on the planet is A OK so long as it's us"

    See how Biden and Kerry have dropped their soppy act's and become the rabid dogs of satan.

    The bare faced lying and double standards of the US is un-parralleled.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall
    It left me puzzled, was he talking about Israel?
    Can not be, because you forget that the VP USA openly declares all the time that at heart he is a zionist. Makes you ponder where his true loyalties lie perhaps?

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnastier
    The bare faced lying and double standards of the US is un-parralleled.

    Recent UK politicians would give give the US one's a head start and still be victorious.

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker
    There is no difference between cowboy George Bush or Barak Obama
    In this case yes there is, if Bush or someone equally committed was in office Putin would not have had the testicular fortitude to even attempt this. He fired the first shot across the bow of the Obama when he went into Georgia unimpeded and since no response of substance came of that action he is now emboldened to go further.

    I was discussing this with a Bulgarian waitress last night who has juts come over some months ago and she is quite concerned given the Russkie population in her country and the close proximity to Russia.

    While the Russians supposedly have a large populous in both countries, if they're uncomfortable or threatened they can LEAVE back to Russia, Russia can even evacuate and relocate them if they're concerned but they have no business annexing parts of the Ukraine under the current excuse being put forward or ANY excuse for that matter.

    I liken it to the large Hispanic community here in Florida complaining and asking Spain to come in and take back one of their colonies if it's not managed to their liking, good luck with that, but there in lies the major diff. Russia has the strength if not the legitimate reasoning to go through with their misguided actions. Go one step further and how many of you expats there feel your treatment by the Thai government sucks? Think your countries should come in and rescue you by annexation?

    His actions are dangerous and provocative to say the least, he's another Kim Jung Il only with the power to act out his fantastical delusions of being future world leader. I just knew he was lying in wait to begin this quest once Obama was elected, it was obvious, now he's putting it in play and has put the entire world in potential peril..

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall View Post
    Joe Biden said earlier this week "No nation has the right to simply grab land from another nation. We will never recognize Russia’s illegal occupation of Crimea." It left me puzzled, was he talking about Israel? I wanted to find the whole speech, watched it on TV yesterday or so. There were more phrases equivocal like this. So I put the sentence in Google's search box, clicked on about 30 links, and was even more puzzled! No matter whether the provider was American, Arab, Japanese, Canadian; CNN, MSNBC, Dailysabah, Praguepost or whatever, they all had the exact same wording for an article 1,000+ words long! That's creepy.
    No of course he wasn't, doesn't apply in the same context what-so-ever, he was speaking more about current times and not thousands of years of past history. The Israeli's have curtailed their land grabs over the last several years and even given selected locations back which, unlike Russia, their reasons are unique & more for their defense against an enemy that doesn't respect their right to even exist. Pathetic example of reaching on your part to attack Israel while justifying a much larger and dangerous injustice by Russia just to take another unwarranted poke at Israel.
    Last edited by FloridaBorn; 26-04-2014 at 11:36 PM.

  16. #266
    I don't know barbaro's Avatar
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    ^ In quotes,

    Rainfall,

    How did you introduce Israel into this thread?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker
    There is no difference between cowboy George Bush or Barak Obama
    In this case yes there is, if Bush or someone equally committed was in office Putin would not have had the testicular fortitude to even attempt this. He fired the first shot across the bow of the Obama when he went into Georgia unimpeded and since no response of substance came of that action he is now emboldened to go further.

    I was discussing this with a Bulgarian waitress last night who has juts come over some months ago and she is quite concerned given the Russkie population in her country and the close proximity to Russia.

    While the Russians supposedly have a large populous in both countries, if they're uncomfortable or threatened they can LEAVE back to Russia, Russia can even evacuate and relocate them if they're concerned but they have no business annexing parts of the Ukraine under the current excuse being put forward or ANY excuse for that matter.

    I liken it to the large Hispanic community here in Florida complaining and asking Spain to come in and take back one of their colonies if it's not managed to their liking, good luck with that, but there in lies the major diff. Russia has the strength if not the legitimate reasoning to go through with their misguided actions. Go one step further and how many of you expats there feel your treatment by the Thai government sucks? Think your countries should come in and rescue you by annexation?

    His actions are dangerous and provocative to say the least, he's another Kim Jung Il only with the power to act out his fantastical delusions of being future world leader. I just knew he was lying in wait to begin this quest once Obama was elected, it was obvious, now he's putting it in play and has put the entire world in potential peril..
    It is laughable that you put Vladimer Putin as equal to Kim Jong Un. Russia is as capitalist of a society as anywhere in the world. They have low taxes, the government carries little debt. Their economy produces real things. You are going to compare that with the hell hole of North Korea ?

    If you are going to recognize this right vs left facade in the US then you are also part of the problem. Sure, maybe Putin would have been more gun shy if he had Bush to deal with. But it does not change the fact that it's the uni polar American federalists versus everyone. I will put up with Putin if he's the only one with the balls to challenge the status quo.

  18. #268
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn
    He fired the first shot across the bow of the Obama when he went into Georgia unimpeded and since no response of substance came of that action he is now emboldened to go further.
    We know you like blaming Obama for everything but Bush was prez in 2008...

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    It is laughable that you put Vladimer Putin as equal to Kim Jong Un. Russia is as capitalist of a society as anywhere in the world. They have low taxes, the government carries little debt. Their economy produces real things. You are going to compare that with the hell hole of North Korea ?

    If you are going to recognize this right vs left facade in the US then you are also part of the problem. Sure, maybe Putin would have been more gun shy if he had Bush to deal with. But it does not change the fact that it's the uni polar American federalists versus everyone. I will put up with Putin if he's the only one with the balls to challenge the status quo.
    Don't be so harsh with him, he really doesn't know better. You seem to be a victim of the same propaganda poor Florida falls for. How do we know that NK is bad? From the same sources that tell us the US is free and democratic? Never been there myself, but if I compare images of Pyongyang which looks nice and orderly with Detroit, NK seems to be much wealthier than the US.

  20. #270
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    So, what do members here think will happen, if anything in Ukraine.

    Is Putin rogue?

    Or, just protecting from of Russia's interests?

  21. #271
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    ^ Don't bother giving a reasoned thoughtful answer it'll just get deleted..

    Another benign but poignant post deleted? How can anyone carry on a debate when so much of it is unreasonably redacted?

    BTW the poster I was discussing with was who alerted me VIA PM to inform me and complain about the deletion as he also saw it as a reasonable discussion, what's the point? I guess he had no problem with the debate?

    But I see plenty of attacking remarks are ok in response but that's ok and left alone, you fecker whoever you are? Mid? Ray Ferry?!! No wonder there has been virtually no response from opposite minded people in this thread it seems they probably all got tired of taking their time to respond just to get censured or attacked without being able to defend against their attackers.
    Last edited by FloridaBorn; 27-04-2014 at 12:25 PM.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker View Post
    It is laughable that you put Vladimer Putin as equal to Kim Jong Un. Russia is as capitalist of a society as anywhere in the world. They have low taxes, the government carries little debt. Their economy produces real things. You are going to compare that with the hell hole of North Korea ?

    If you are going to recognize this right vs left facade in the US then you are also part of the problem. Sure, maybe Putin would have been more gun shy if he had Bush to deal with. But it does not change the fact that it's the uni polar American federalists versus everyone. I will put up with Putin if he's the only one with the balls to challenge the status quo.
    Don't be so harsh with him, he really doesn't know better. You seem to be a victim of the same propaganda poor Florida falls for. How do we know that NK is bad? From the same sources that tell us the US is free and democratic? Never been there myself, but if I compare images of Pyongyang which looks nice and orderly with Detroit, NK seems to be much wealthier than the US.
    Oh FFS really? This post is about as informed as your post about the toddler who almost drowned in the small pond, basically mindless, just as that one was too.

  23. #273
    Thailand Expat OhOh's Avatar
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    Ukrainian Military Surround a Ukrainian City.

    "Russian RIA Novosti reports that it has received satellite photos, "which clearly show the accumulation of a large number of Ukrainian military equipment and weapons on the border with the Russian Federation and in the vicinity of Slavyasnk." RIA cites a source in the Russian Defense Ministry, who commented that the pictures show a military formation designed "to wipe out the city and all its inhabitants from the face of the earth."

    According to source, the group has more than 15,000 troops from the Ukraine army and national guard, about 160 tanks, 230 infantry fighting vehicles and APCs, and as much as 150 mortars, howitzers and multiple launch rocket systems ("Grad" and "Smerch").
    The source concludes that "This concentration of troops in one area is not compatible with the potential of self-defense forces, armed with only a small number of pistols and submachine guns.""

    more at Satellite Images Reveal Massing Of 15,000 Ukraine Troops, Hundreds Of Tanks Around Slavyansk | Zero Hedge

    One could look back at Falujia in Iraq and see that the "Coalition of the Willing" will have no problem in ordering the massacre the inhabitants. During the Libyan war a No fly zone was imposed and any movement by the countries military towardsm albeit hundreds of miles away, was enough for the “Coalition of the Willing”/NATO to decimate the countries military forces from the air. All in the name of protecting the people of Libya from it’s own government.

    Which of the warring parties is showing restraint?

  24. #274
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    Another crime by the Ukrainian unelected Government.

    Stopping the water supply to the Crimea - an illegal act of war, as defined by the Geneva Convention.


    "So what does a desperate Ukraine do, realizing that all of its leverage is gone, and that its western "allies" are about to let it hang? It used the nuclear option (not very nuclear but it really doesn't have much if any leverage), and stopped the flow of the bulk of water to now Russian Crimea. "




    "Ukraine had closed sluices of the North Crimean Canal, halting water supply from the Dnieper River to the peninsula, Ukraine's UNIAN news agency reported on Saturday.

    Crimea received 85% of fresh water through the canal, which was built in 1961-1971. It stretches from the Khakhovka Reservoir to Kerch."




    "As a general principle, in both internal and international armed

    conflict it is lawful to attack only military objectives. From this derives the rule stated in Article 54 of the first of the two 1977 Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions that “starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited.” Denying the civilian population water is just as illegal as denying them food. Article 54 states that “it is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population,” and includes not only foodstuffs, livestock, and the like, but “drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works.”


    Crimes of War – Water Supplies and Works, Destruction of



  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaBorn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawker
    There is no difference between cowboy George Bush or Barak Obama
    In this case yes there is, if Bush or someone equally committed was in office Putin would not have had the testicular fortitude to even attempt this. He fired the first shot across the bow of the Obama when he went into Georgia unimpeded and since no response of substance came of that action he is now emboldened to go further.

    I was discussing this with a Bulgarian waitress last night who has juts come over some months ago and she is quite concerned given the Russkie population in her country and the close proximity to Russia.

    While the Russians supposedly have a large populous in both countries, if they're uncomfortable or threatened they can LEAVE back to Russia, Russia can even evacuate and relocate them if they're concerned but they have no business annexing parts of the Ukraine under the current excuse being put forward or ANY excuse for that matter.

    I liken it to the large Hispanic community here in Florida complaining and asking Spain to come in and take back one of their colonies if it's not managed to their liking, good luck with that, but there in lies the major diff. Russia has the strength if not the legitimate reasoning to go through with their misguided actions. Go one step further and how many of you expats there feel your treatment by the Thai government sucks? Think your countries should come in and rescue you by annexation?

    His actions are dangerous and provocative to say the least, he's another Kim Jung Il only with the power to act out his fantastical delusions of being future world leader. I just knew he was lying in wait to begin this quest once Obama was elected, it was obvious, now he's putting it in play and has put the entire world in potential peril..
    typical American retard poor thought analysis, laughable

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