Thread: Contact lost with Malaysia Plane.

Originally Posted by Necron99

Unless it is a specialized satellite like the ones used by google earth, the visual capabilities are probably not that good becasue they don't have to be.

All the hi res pictures on google earth are aereal photos taken by planes. Even the best spysats are nowhere near that quality. Only those in low res covering much of the earth are satellite photos.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Five Power Defence Arrangements Integrated Area Defence System for Malaysia and Singapore

An organization that discusses Defense Strategies and cooperation between 5 nations.

Nothing to do with the manning and operation of the Malaysian Air Defense System aka MADGE.

MADGE is a small but still expensive version of US Air force Battle Control System.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispla...r-defense.aspx

Air-Vice Marshal Ludwig was promoted to his current rank in October 2010 for command of the Integrated Area Defence System at Butterworth, Malaysia from December 2010.


Not the FPDA, not much of a integrated defence system if you don't have access to radar.

Not sure why you are on about this. Malaysia has released it's radar info.
Butterworth isn;t any sort of multinational NORAD.
It's a planning and cooperation command. Apart from planning joint exercises the international component probably doesn't do much at all. The British commander for example is also the military attache to Singapore.

Originally Posted by Necron99

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Five Power Defence Arrangements Integrated Area Defence System for Malaysia and Singapore

An organization that discusses Defense Strategies and cooperation between 5 nations.

Nothing to do with the manning and operation of the Malaysian Air Defense System aka MADGE.

MADGE is a small but still expensive version of US Air force Battle Control System.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDispla...r-defense.aspx

Air-Vice Marshal Ludwig was promoted to his current rank in October 2010 for command of the Integrated Area Defence System at Butterworth, Malaysia from December 2010.


Not the FPDA, not much of a integrated defence system if you don't have access to radar.

Not sure why you are on about this. Malaysia has released it's radar info.
Butterworth isn;t any sort of multinational NORAD.
It's a planning and cooperation command. Apart from planning joint exercises the international component probably doesn't do much at all. The British commander for example is also the military attache to Singapore.

Because the radar is the critical.
1/ Malaysians have changed their story multiple times, once saying the radar fix was not MAL370.

2/ If there really is an integrated air defence system, it's not very integrated, or the other parties aren't talking.

3/ How often does an unidentified plane fly over this area, radar operators took little notice, perhaps a weekly event. Thai recon of the border.

One other thing, French satellite, did they move it there, or a permanent fixture, because that was a radar satellite. If it can pick up junk in an ocean should have no problem tracking a 777 in the air.

Found it!!!!

hazz, as posted earlier, the satellite is non directional, to get a direction you need a start point. That point is the at last radar fix.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

hazz, as posted earlier, the satellite is non directional, to get a direction you need a start point. That point is the at last radar fix.

Not entirely true. The satellite signlas gave them two arcs... going in opposite directions. It was then a matter of which one to eliminate. It had to be one or the other...and as it turned out it was the one going south, which is why all those people are milling around down there looking for the plane...

Originally Posted by koman

Originally Posted by jamescollister

hazz, as posted earlier, the satellite is non directional, to get a direction you need a start point. That point is the at last radar fix.

Not entirely true. The satellite signlas gave them two arcs... going in opposite directions. It was then a matter of which one to eliminate. It had to be one or the other...and as it turned out it was the one going south, which is why all those people are milling around down there looking for the plane...

Don't know where you read that one, the 2 arcs are commercial flight lanes. Pilot, if there was one and he was there, didn't have to fly in the official lane.

Really all depends on the last radar fix, if it was MAL 370 then looking south is right.

Read people writing about trains, explaining doppler shift ,but in this case it's different, you are not standing by the train line.
Here you have a microphone beside the train tracks, you are miles away with headphones, listening.
You hear the train coming, then going, doppler shift, you don't know which way the train came from or went to. .

No facts except the last ACARS data upload. Jim

^^ Earlier, someone (Takeovers) mentioned that they were using doppler shift of the received radio waves to calculate the positions. This is relatively straightforward when an object is moving towards, or away from you, but not so simple when it is moving almost perpendicular to you. Not sure how they managed to narrow it down to only two possible solutions but presumably it's because the angle off the perpendicular was calculated.
I don't see a requirement for a start position to work out the possible tracks.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Really all depends on the last radar fix, if it was MAL 370 then looking south is right.

Read people writing about trains, explaining doppler shift ,but in this case it's different, you are not standing by the train line.
Here you have a microphone beside the train tracks, you are miles away with headphones, listening.
You hear the train coming, then going, doppler shift, you don't know which way the train came from or went to. .

No facts except the last ACARS data upload. Jim

The radar has nothing to do with it Jim.
The two arcs are not commercial routes, but the first two paths calculated from the satellite data.
Doppler shift is real and exists regardless of how far away your are provided your instruments are accurate enough. They use it in astronomy ffs, stars are pretty far away no?
Spherical trigonometry was I believe the math used along with empirical data from other flights which they used to validate their math before nailing the final position.

^
The arcs produced had nothing to do with Doppler shift.... It was based on antenna angles and the use of spherical trigonometry calculations applied to highly directional signals transmitted to, and received from an orbiting satellite.

You are confusing radar imaging with satellite signals. The arcs were nothing to do with commercial flight lanes. They were tracks determined from the calculations applied to the satellite signals...or pings. We need a bone fide satellite engineer on TD to explain this....ex cops, bus drivers and used car salesmen just won't do the job properly......

Oops ....Necron beat me to it.....

You could ask the company that runs that satellite. They say it was the doppler effect, but are eager to be taught better by the world's foremost specialists.

Anyone care to post what Inmarsat actually said, not what the Malaysian PM or the daily truth said they said., that's hearsay.
Not top secret, how did they get the numbers, bad net here, like to see Inmarsat report.

Originally Posted by hazz

its hardly a surprise that the thai and malysian militaries dropped the ball

yes , it was a rollsroyce and not a mercedes

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Anyone care to post what Inmarsat actually said, not what the Malaysian PM or the daily truth said they said., that's hearsay.
Not top secret, how did they get the numbers, bad net here, like to see Inmarsat report.

It's been explained several times who are the official spokesmen.
All companies refer inquiries to MAL or the Malaysian government.

Don;t you think if they (MAL) were spurting bullshit and untruths Inmarsat would be refuting it?

Latest news: Chinese ships fishing bits out of ocean but nothing conclusive as regards MH370 as yet;

BBC News - Flight MH370: Chinese and Australian ships draw blank

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Originally Posted by Necron99

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Anyone care to post what Inmarsat actually said, not what the Malaysian PM or the daily truth said they said., that's hearsay.
Not top secret, how did they get the numbers, bad net here, like to see Inmarsat report.

It's been explained several times who are the official spokesmen.
All companies refer inquiries to MAL or the Malaysian government.

Don;t you think if they (MAL) were spurting bullshit and untruths Inmarsat would be refuting it?

Believe Inmarsat refused to attend a press conference with relatives and the British air accident people who checked the data are not accountable to MAL.
Rolls Royce did get up and say, not true, no 5 hours of data, some ones not being open.
As said, not top secret how they did the numbers, so why not tell. Jim

No, they didn't. They simply confirmed that what MAL said was supported. As did inmasat earlier.
Inmarsat isn't refuting anything, they are letting the legal and official spokesmen talk.....

Deal with it.

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Anyone care to post what Inmarsat actually said, not what the Malaysian PM or the daily truth said they said., that's hearsay.

You could always try their website:
Malaysian government publishes MH370 details from UK AAIB - Inmarsat

All passed to Malaysian Authorities through AAIB, as you would expect. Only curious thing is that the links on the above page don't lead anywhere (maybe just a glitch at the moment) and the AAIB web-site didn't have it's report to the Malaysians in full either.

Anyway, the page give you the method they used even if it doesn't go into the details.

There's a bit more info here and in the links referenced if you want some more details...
Physics Buzz: How Inmarsat Hacked Their Data to Find Flight MH370

Some good points made about the types and ability of satellites to capture images. However after a month the clearest pictures of we have been shown are pixelated to the point of useless.

I feel frustrated, those who have lost family and friends must find life very difficult.

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Anyone care to post what Inmarsat actually said, not what the Malaysian PM or the daily truth said they said., that's hearsay.

You could always try their website:
Malaysian government publishes MH370 details from UK AAIB - Inmarsat

All passed to Malaysian Authorities through AAIB, as you would expect. Only curious thing is that the links on the above page don't lead anywhere (maybe just a glitch at the moment) and the AAIB web-site didn't have it's report to the Malaysians in full either.

Anyway, the page give you the method they used even if it doesn't go into the details.

There's a bit more info here and in the links referenced if you want some more details...
Physics Buzz: How Inmarsat Hacked Their Data to Find Flight MH370

Good info, interesting read, will have to digest what it said tomorrow. Jim

Think I posted well back about fuel, can't be bothered to look.

CNN today.
search zone was the right place to look. What happened?
Investigators concluded this week that, during the flight's initial phase, the plane was traveling faster -- and therefore burning fuel faster -- than they had thought. They based that conclusion on radar and satellite data.
The plane would have had less fuel left for its flight over the Indian Ocean. Authorities have concluded it could not have traveled as far south as they had thought earlier.
They estimate the plane went down about 680 miles (1,100 kilometers) northeast of the previous search zone.