Thread: Contact lost with Malaysia Plane.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/malaysiaairsar2014

no map appears on that link.

Originally Posted by taxexile

Tomnod

no map appears on that link.

I kinda get the feeling they are getting swamped with more traffic than they expected.

"Could not open connection to database server".

Originally Posted by bangkokbonecollector

New theory, co pilot murdered his colleague, took the aircraft off its course and headed the opposite direction like a kid running away in panic. Ultimately decided to commit suicide with all on board. Just saying

My missus says "may be magic can really happen and they did just disappear".

can't they fly 'under the radar '?

^^^

Why Can't The Malaysian Air Boeing 777 Be Found?


The anguish for relatives of passengers could not be greater. Not knowing the fate of their loved ones. Fearing the worst and yet holding out for hope. All because the aircraft has not been found. And why in this day of GPS and all manner of tracking can’t it be located immediately, let alone days later?
The truth is that there are many areas in the world that are not covered by radar. And many more that are covered only by a single radar station. Oceans and seas have particularly sketchy radar coverage because there is no place to put the radar. Space-based radars are not available for civilian aircraft. Navigation systems on the aircraft know where the aircraft is located –via GPS – but do not broadcast that information back to ground stations.
In terms of finding the aircraft, if it crashed in the middle of the South China Sea, any emergency transmitters on board would emit frequencies that travel well through the air but not very well through water. The black boxes emit a sound signal that travels well under water but the distance the sound travels is also limited when you consider the vastness of the South China Sea.
There are technologies available –some of which are space-based – that have been considered for a number of years but have not been implemented that would address this problem. This accident may drive a re-newed interest in use of that technology which I would certainly welcome.




Why Can't The Malaysian Air Boeing 777 Be Found? - Forbes

Navigation systems on the aircraft know where the aircraft is located – via GPS – but do not broadcast that information back to ground stations.

I always think it's ludicrous that they can't spit out a GPS co-ordinate several times a minute via ACARS. It's such a minute amount of data.

can't they fly 'under the radar '?

under commercial radar yes, but i doubt if they could evade military radar.

Here's some questions and answers from a Malaysian forum

Q: Why hasn’t the plane, or wreckage been found?
There are many reasons for this, and the most grim scenario is that the plane suffered a high-altitude catastrophic disaster, either a mechanical failure or a strong explosion. This would have caused the debris to have been spread over a wide area and swept out by the currents before the search and rescue (SAR) efforts were started.
Another possible reason is that the plane deviated from its flight path and ended up hundreds of miles away from the current search area.
Q: What was the last known point of contact?
120 nautical miles east off Kota Bahru, 40 minutes into the flight at 1.30am.
Q: Did the flight enter Vietnam air space and if it did, did it establish contact with the Vietnamese Air Control?
[Not known]
Q: Is it normal for a plane to disappear from radar and go silent, and nobody is sent out to look for it immediately?
The problem with flight MH370 is that is it disappeared at a point where it was leaving Malaysian Airspace and entering Vietnamese air space. It is not known if the Vietnamese air force scrambled any jets to look for the plane when it disappeared.
Q: How does radar work and how could a plane suddenly disappear from radar at 35,000 ft
Radar works by sending out radio waves or microwaves, and when it hits an object, and the object bounces back a small amount of the energy back to the transmitter. Its how blind bats find their way around. By compiling back the waves, and calculating the time it took for the waves to come back, the distance, height speed and other details of an object can be extrapolated.
In the case of MH370, it mysteriously went off from radar at about 1.30am. The only two possibilities that seem could make the plane disappear from in an instant is if it disintegrated or if it went into a steep nosedive.
Q: Could somebody on the plane have jammed the radar?
No. There are a number of ways to jam or fool a radar, but its not something that can be done from within the plane. You would need to be at the radar base station to jam the radar, or you would need a decoy or special paint to hide the entire plane from a normal radar.
Q: I heard that the military radar is more powerful and could have found the flight. Is this true?
Yes, Military radars are much more powerful, but to date, they have not released any information to the public.
Q: Why are they searching at the Straits of Malacca?
We don’t know, and we’re quite surprised that nobody has asked the question to the DCA. It is quite impossible for the flight to have made a reverse flight over the Peninsular without being detected by any radar stations.
Q: If the plane made a reverse and headed back towards land, why are they not searching on land?
We have reason to believe that the land search has already been conducted and they did not find any clues to support the theory that the plane came down over land. Also, if it was on land, the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) as well as other beacons would have been picked up by rescue crafts. A low flying aircraft the size of a Boeing 777 would have woken up a lot of neighbours.
Q: Does the 777-200ER have an ACARS system on board? If yes, where is the data?
Yes it does, but we do not know if the MH370 had its system activated or if Malaysia Airlines had it set up to be used on its aircraft. ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) if activated automatically sends short messages to ground controllers, reporting the position and critical data like speed and altitude of the plane. In the event of a disaster, the ACARS system would have continued to relay data back to the ground controller until a point when it became disabled.
Q: Why don’t we send in the submarines, submarines are !##%#$# awesome!!
This seems to be the question that has been making its round across our forums for some days now. Why? Because our subs aren’t nuclear powered like the one used to help locate Air France flight AF447. Without nuclear power, the sub needs to return to base to refuel. Scouring the ocean floor when you don’t know where to look is another big problem. Even with sonar, its like using a torchlight to look for a needle on a dark carpet. The South China sea isn’t very deep, so its much easier (and faster) to just send divers down from rescue vessels.

Lowyat.NET | Malaysia's Largest Online Community

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I kinda get the feeling they are getting swamped with more traffic than they expected.

their plan to cash in via ad views may not have had all the cunning it required

Originally Posted by taxexile

i doubt if they could evade military radar.

Both Malaysia and Thailand have national air defense systems. Multiple long range (300 to 500 km) radars spread around the entire country. Located on mountain tops typically. All feeding into command and control centers.

All wonderful stuff but limited to seeing a plane which is above the horizon of the radar. If the plane is flying low may well be below the horizon so can't be detected.

Could well be what happened in this case.

Originally Posted by taxexile

MH370 detected above Malacca Straits at 2.40am


MalaysiakiniMalaysiakini – 3 hours ago
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Malaysian air force confirms signal of MH370 turning back on Saturday

The search for Malaysian Airlines MH307 plane has been expanded to Sumatran waters, north of Straits of Malacca, as military radar may have detected the missing plane in the vicinity of Pulau Perak.

A Berita Harian report today quoted the Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF) as saying the plane may have reversed course further than expected while on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

Air Force chief Rodzali Daud ( left ) is quoted as saying that based on military radar readings from its station in Butterworth, MH370 may have turned west after Kota Bahru and flew past the east coast and Kedah.

"The last time the plane was detected was near Pulau Perak, in the Straits of Malacca, at 2.40am," Berita Harian quotes Rodzali as saying.

This contradicts with earlier reports that the aircraft had disappeared from radar screens 120 nautical miles off Kota Bharu and over the South China Sea, at 1.30am on March 8.

The Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) had previously said the search for the Boeing 777-200ER aircraft, which is missing for the fourth day, had previously been focused around the waters between East Malaysia and Vietnam.

Berita Harian also said that military radar noted that the plane was flying about 1,000 metres lower than its original altitude of 10,000 metres after the about turn.
There are 227 passengers, including two infants, and 12 crew members on board the plane. Of these, 152 are Chinese nationals, 38 are Malaysians and the rest are from 12 other countries.

Meanwhile, Utusan Malaysia reported that 20,000 fishermen nationwide have been roped in to help in the search-and-rescue operation.

The newspaper quoted Agriculture and Agro-based Industries Minister Ismail Sabri Yaakob as saying that this would involve 1,788 fishing boats around the waters off Kelantan, Terengganu, Perlis, Perak and Penang.

The fishermen were roped in at the request of acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein, Ismail said.


MH370 detected above Malacca Straits at 2.40am




Why has it taken 4 days ?

Maybe they didnt want to make the info public, as to avoid people going to look for it and disturbing a possible crime scene .
If a scuba diving company found the wreckage first, they would be offering dive trips to it, before the authorities got there

^ It's all "may have" though, isn't it? That means they don't have a fucking clue.

Sorry "may not have a fucking clue".

wonder why it has taken them 4 days to come to the conclusion that it could be west of malaysia, when they have been saying all the time that the last record of the plane was east, near the vietnamese coast.

got to feel sorry for the relatives sweating it out whilst the malaysian authorities seem to be holding back a lot of information.

Originally Posted by taxexile

got to feel sorry for the relatives sweating it out whilst the malaysian authorities seem to be holding back a lot of information.

Must be hell for them. Doubt they are holding back info.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

"may not have a fucking clue"

Most likely.

MAS are in financial difficulties, have been for a while. If the blame for this crash or disappearance can be laid on their doorstep it could be the end of the airline.

and in a culture of face saving and blame shifting, i have no doubt that they are manipulating the information to their advantage, however slight that advantage might be.

The story, if true, about the pilots entertaining passengers on the flight deck is quite relevant i think. It goes against all airline regulations and throws doubt onto MAS claims about the expertise and professionalism of the pilots and the standards of crew discipline.

Likewise the backtracking of statements about the false passport holders, they were black, they were balotelli, they were asian and now they are iranian. The amateur nature of their press conferences is something of a joke.

the most serious statement to come out of it all was the one warning the fortune tellers and witches to behave according to islamic law.

i read about this an thought bullshit,
but than watching this video??

Woman raises questions about cockpit behaviour - YouTube
ok Malaysian mention a "personal" problem with staff or crew, Perhaps he knew this was coming out an knew he would lose his job so....

A Malaysian Police officer holds photos of two suspects believed to be the two passengers with stolen passports on the missing flight

^ They both have the same legs !!!

Originally Posted by Fluke

^ They both have the same legs !!!

Yeah... Bizzare they would do this???

The plane turned around to fly to Australia as some of the passengers wanted to claim asylum there, knowing that to return them to their country of origin their lives would be in danger and so be allowed to stay.
A fight ensued as two Iranian passengers traveling with stolen passports wanted to go to Germany.
(just another idea thrown into the mix)

Originally Posted by taxexile

under commercial radar yes, but i doubt if they could evade military radar.

Originally Posted by Norton

Both Malaysia and Thailand have national air defense systems. Multiple long range (300 to 500 km) radars spread around the entire country. Located on mountain tops typically. All feeding into command and control centers. All wonderful stuff but limited to seeing a plane which is above the horizon of the radar. If the plane is flying low may well be below the horizon so can't be detected. Could well be what happened in this case.

Everything still relies on someone looking at the screen, interpreting what they see and then reporting anything out of the ordinary. They probably won't be too concerned with looking at every return unless they are told something is wrong by civil ATC.

The radar returns will be recorded and so once they have been told something is amiss they have gone back to these and analysed them. Probably Butterworth has found an unidentified blip off the West coast and although initially it was ruled out, the lack of debris has made them take another look. They need to be cagey about ranges due to military radar and know more about this than they are willing to divulge.

Flight24 uses the GPS satellite returns to monitor aircraft positions. Civil will be using IFF secondary Radar to get information. The turn back could have been out of range of primary Radar and the GPS and IFF could have failed, deliberately or otherwise. It would be a major embarrassment for the Malaysian military if this was the case.

asylum seekers that can afford to holiday in Pattaya.. fly to Malaysia and pay the airfare all the way to Frankfurt..

I wonder what terrible existence they were fleeing

Technology of limited use in search for missing 777

By: Greg Waldron
Singapore
Source:
01:58 10 Mar 2014


Amid conflicting reports about whether the wreckage of the missing Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 has been spotted, an expert in airborne search and rescue at sea highlights the challenging task facing the aerial armada searching for the aircraft.
“Search and rescue (SAR) is an incredibly hard mission, made more so when the datum (last location of the aircraft) is unclear,” says a source familiar with maritime patrol activities.
Initially, the airborne search would likely have used an expanding square or spiral search from the starting point, taking into account winds and currents that could "skew" the pattern of debris.
“The vague initial datum makes that area even larger, and time only expands it further,” he says.
The 777, registered 9M-MRO, lost contact with the Subang Air Traffic Control centre at around 01:30 local time on 8 March. Its last reported position was over an area of sea between Malaysia and Vietnam.
A perplexing element of the aircraft’s disappearance is the lack of a distress call or transponder signals. Flightglobal asked Malaysia Airlines about signals from the 777’s Aircraft Communications and Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), but the carrier declined to comment citing “pending investigations” by Malaysia’s Department of Civil Aviation.
The search, which is entering its third day, involves over 30 aircraft and over 40 ships.
The expert says that the current SAR mission is similar to hunting for anti-shipping mines.
“Radar is a wide area search tool,” he says. “In this type of event, debris would typically be relatively small and floating low to the surface, making it very hard to "paint" with the radar. Additionally, floating debris has no Doppler speed relative to the surrounding ocean, so it would typically be filtered out by radar software intended to de-clutter the radar display. Turning off that feature would create a massive amount of clutter and sporadic returns, not adding much value.”
Electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors are also of dubious help. This long after the crash – if, indeed, MH370 went down in the sea – most of the debris would be the same temperature of the water, making it undetectable by IR.
And while the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand are smaller bodies of water than the South Atlantic, where Air France flight AF447 crashed in 2009, it is still a vast area – and presents unique challenges.
A vast fleet of small fishing boats ply the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand. Most of these do not carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponder, which is common on larger vessels. These fishing boats make for small, slow moving contacts.
“Every one of these will appear as a target that the MPA crew would need to identify and rule out as potential large debris,” says the expert..
“The best sensor for SAR remains the human eye, which is why maritime patrol aircraft are all designed with the ability to fly low and slow to detect survivors or small debris.”



Technology of limited use in search for missing 777 - 3/10/2014 - Flight Global

Video by David Learmount Aviation expert (right hand side of page);

Aircraft News Channel | Flightglobal.com

Interesting what he says about ACRAS which may back up something taxexile was saying earlier (cost cutting perhaps?).