The Gun Issue thread

[barbaro]

I've done a few searches and nothing comes up.

I am hoping all issues/topics/discussion about the guns, gun laws, gun "control" can be discussed here.

It's in US domestic because the Gun Issue seems very American-based at the moment, and will be in the future.

All of course are welcome to chime in.

Here is an article to start off.

Opinions on this?

--
Chicago Police Chief: Second Amendment Is A Danger To Public Safety

By: Dana Loesch

| February 17th, 2013



Chicago’s Chief of Police, who previously blamed ”government-sponsored racism” and Sarah Palin for Chicago’s gun violence, declared that the law-ful exercise of the Second Amendment was a threat to public safety.

Chicago’s embattled police superintendent dug himself deeper into a pit of controversy today by claiming that lawful firearm owners are agents of political corruption. Appearing on a Chicago Sunday morning talk show, superintendent Garry McCarthy expressed his conviction that firearm owners who lobby their elected representatives or who donate money to political campaigns are engaged in corruption that endangers public safety. McCarthy went on to express his belief that judges and legislators should rely on public opinion polls when interpreting our Constitution.


After totally dismissing the citizen’s right to redress grievances, McCarthy trained his constitutional wisdom on the 2nd Amendment. Despite recent court decisions to the contrary, McCarthy opined that the 2ndAmendment limits citizens to owning smooth-bore muskets. McCarthy went on to say that he believes that the 2nd Amendment supports mandatory liability insurance for firearm owners and the mandatory application of GPS tracking devices to civilian owned firearms.


“ Garry McCarthy ’s understanding of our Constitution barely qualifies him as a meter maid, never mind the chief of the nation’s third largest police department,” commented ISRA Executive Director Richard Pearson . “What on earth would possess McCarthy to assert that constitutional rights should be meted out based on public opinion polls? Let’s not forget that public opinion polls once opposed a woman’s right to vote while it would be a safe bet that, at one time, polls would have shown lynching as an acceptable form of justice. It has been said that our Constitution exists to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. McCarthy’s view of our Constitution is dangerous and unbecoming of a civil servant.”

Entire: Chicago Police Chief: Second Amendment Is A Danger To Public Safety | RedState

[Mid]

I've done a few searches and nothing comes up.

https://teakdoor.com/search.php?searchid=8484192

[sabang]

Well the first Bill has been unveiled, whatever that means-

Gun Control Bill With Bipartisan Support Unveiled In House


During a press event, the bill's sponsors -- Reps. Patrick Meehan (R-Pa.), Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.), Scott Rigell (R-Va.) and Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) -- said their legislation would create a single section of federal code to give law enforcement the ability to prosecute gun traffickers. It would also impose up to 20 years in jail for "straw purchasers," or those who buy guns for people prohibited from buying them on their own. Their measure is among the recommendations included in the gun violence package put forward last month by President Barack Obama.
Gun Control Bill With Bipartisan Support Unveiled In House


Does this mean the current gun control legislation in the pipeline will be done as series of discrete bills, rather than a combined thing like the AHC? I'm basically holding off commenting much in Issue's on this current 'gun legislation' thing until some concrete legislation is tabled. Right now it's mostly in the realm of the loonysphere, and will likely stay there until the proposed legislation hits Congress.

[barbaro]

Does this mean the current gun control legislation in the pipeline will be done as series of discrete bills, rather than a combined thing like the AHC? I'm basically holding off commenting much in Issue's on this current 'gun legislation' thing until some concrete legislation is tabled. Right now it's mostly in the realm of the loonysphere, and will likely stay there until the proposed legislation hits Congress.

It seems to be incremental and discreet, and incremental and not-discreet. Largely at the state level.

Oh, I guess this gun bill was a "mistake."

Misstep in gun bill could defeat the effort

One of the major gun-control efforts in Olympia this session calls for the sheriff to inspect the homes of assault-weapon owners. The bill’s backers say that was a mistake.



So these guys in the legislature sign bill without reading them? How irresponsible... (February 16, 2013, by ail) MORE

Perfectly reasonable gun-control is not something that the Democrats are capable of... (February 16, 2013, by Alaskabobc)


Please tell me, Gestapo, what exactly is an "assault-weapon"? (February 16, 2013, by Soarer)

Forget police drones flying over your house. How about police coming inside, once a year, to have a look around?
As Orwellian as that sounds, it isn’t hypothetical. The notion of police home inspections was introduced in a bill last week in Olympia.

Entire: Misstep in gun bill could defeat the effort | Local News | The Seattle Times

[barbaro]

Wounded Knee was not a battle but a massacre.

A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY TO THINK about:
December 29, 2012 marked the 122nd Anniversary of the murder of 297 Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee Creek on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. These 297 people, in their winter camp, were murdered by federal agents and members of the 7th Cavalry who had come to confiscate their firearms ...?for their own safety and protection?. The slaughter began after the majority of the Sioux had peacefully turned in their firearms. The Calvary began shooting, and managed to wipe out the entire camp. 200 of the 297 victims were women and children. About 40 members of the 7th Cavalry were killed, but over half of them were victims of fratricide from the Hotchkiss guns of their overzealous comrades-in-arms. Twenty members of the 7th Cavalry's death squad, were deemed ?National Heroes? and were awarded the Medal of Honor for their acts of [cowardice] heroism.

We hear very little of Wounded Knee today. It is usually not mentioned in our history classes or books. What little that does exist about Wounded Knee is normally a sanitized ?Official Government Explanation?. And there are several historically inaccurate depictions of the events leading up to the massacre, which appear in movie scripts and are not the least bit representative of the actual events that took place that day.

Wounded Knee was among the first federally backed gun confiscation attempts in United States history. It ended in the senseless murder of 297 people.

Before you jump on the emotionally charged bandwagon for gun-control, take a moment to reflect on the real purpose of the Second Amendment, the right of the people to take up arms in defense of themselves, their families, and property in the face of invading armies or an oppressive government. The argument that the Second Amendment only applies to hunting and target shooting is asinine. When the United States Constitution was drafted, ?hunting? was an everyday chore carried out by men and women to put meat on the table each night, and ?target shooting? was an unheard of concept. Musket balls were a precious commodity and were certainly not wasted on ?target shooting?. The Second Amendment was written by people who fled oppressive and tyrannical regimes in Europe, and it refers to the right of American citizens to be armed for defensive purposes, should such tyranny arise in the United States.

As time goes forward, the average citizen in the United States continually loses little chunks of personal freedom or ?liberty?. Far too many times, unjust gun control bills were passed and signed into law under the guise of ?for your safety? or ?for protection?. The Patriot Act signed into law by G.W. Bush, was expanded and continues under Barack Obama. It is just one of many examples of American citizens being stripped of their rights and privacy for ?safety?. Now, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is on the table, and will, most likely be attacked to facilitate the path for the removal of our firearms, all in the name of ?our safety?.

Before any American citizen blindly accepts whatever new firearms legislation that is about to be doled out, they should stop and think about something for just one minute-

Evil does exist in our world. It always has and always will. Throughout history evil people have committed evil acts. In the Bible one of the first stories is that of Cain killing Abel. We can not legislate ?evil? into extinction. Good people will abide by the law, and the criminal element will always find a way around it.

Evil exists all around us, but looking back at the historical record of the past 200 years, across the globe, where is ?evil? and ?malevolence? most often found? In the hands of those with the power, the governments. That greatest human tragedies on record and the largest loss of innocent human life can be attributed to governments. Who do the governments always target? ?Scapegoats? and ?enemies? within their own borders?but only after they have been disarmed to the point where they are no longer a threat. Ask any Native American, and they will tell you it was inferior technology and lack of arms that contributed to their demise. Ask any Armenian why it was so easy for the Turks to exterminate millions of them, and they will answer ?We were disarmed before it happened?. Ask any Jew what Hitler?s first step prior to the mass murders of the Holocaust was- confiscation of firearms from the people.

Wounded Knee is the prime example of why the Second Amendment exists, and why we should vehemently resist any attempts to infringe on our Rights to Bear Arms. Without the Second Amendment we will be totally stripped of any ability to defend ourselves and our families.

Another account

In the morning, Forsyth prepared to disarm his captives. To secure the field, his troops were disposed on all four sides of the Indian camp, and four rapid-fire Hotchkiss guns were set into place on a low hill overlooking the camp from the north. At about 8 o?clock, the Indian men came out of their tipis and sat in a semicircle in front of the troops. Forsyth issued orders that they should return to the lodges, 20 at a time, and bring out their guns. The first contingent obediently entered the tipis but, after some time, reappeared with only two weapons.

Troops around the warriors were moved up within 10 yards; others were detailed to go into the tipis and make a search. The soldiers went at their work with hard-handed zeal, scattering bedclothing, pawing through other property. Women inside the lodges protested loudly.

Outside, resentful uneasiness edged into hair-trigger tension. Then a medicine man called Yellow Bird began blowing on an eagle-bone whistle, exhorting them to resist. When the soldiers began to search the warriors themselves, the situation exploded. A young Indian pulled a gun out from under his robe and fired wildly. Instantly, the soldiers retaliated with a point-blank volley which cut down nearly half of the warriors. The rest of them drew concealed weapons and charged the soldiers.

Then the Hotchkiss guns on the hill opened up -- on the women and children who had come pouring out of the tipis. Soon many of the tipis were burning, ripped by the explosive shells. A stumbling mass of women and children and a few men bolted into a ravine that led away from the encampment. The soldiers followed them, firing as they went. The Hotchkiss guns were then re-emplaced to sweep the ravine and cut down anything that moved.

Big Foot died as he tried to rise from his sickbed. Others managed to run as far as two miles from the camp before dying of their wounds. Twenty-five white men were killed and 39 wounded. Since the besieged Indians had few guns and since the troops were firing from four sides at once, it seemed likely that the soldiers had caused many of their own casualties. The Indian dead numbered about 180. [Note: other reports place this number much higher.] For three days, they were left to lie where they had fallen while a winter blizzard swept over them. A burial party was sent to the scene on New Year?s Day, 1891. One by one the bodies, frozen in the grotesque agonies of death, were dragged from under the snow and heaved into a single pit. Four babies were discovered still alive, wrapped in their dead mothers? shawls. Most of the other children were dead. "It was a thing to melt the heart of a man if it was of stone," said a member of the burial party, "to see those little children, with their bodies shot to pieces, thrown naked into the pit."
Massacre at Wounded Knee Story and Index (Morgana's Observatory)

Audio and video with more info on Wounded Knee: http://knowledgeisking.ning.com/grou...0#.USOp8_LzPFw

[Camel Toe]

Anything else that happened 122 years ago we should be concerned about today? Do you think WWI will enjoy a vogue? Should we brace ourselves for another Poncho Villa raid?

[RickThai]

What is sad, is that in the USA, the politicians who scream so loudly for "gun control" (Democrats) also block attempts at any laws that increase the punishment for individuals who actually commit murders and other crimes involving guns.

Why? IMO, Democrats work hard at getting the minority vote, and most of the crimes involving murders and shooting are committed by minorities. That is a fact.

Although most, if not all, mass shootings in the US are done by white people, the fact is that percentage wise, the number of people killed in mass shootings, as opposed to everyday street shootings is statistically quite small.

That is not to demean the loss of life of the individuals killed in mass shootings, but the reality is that most murders committed in the US with guns, are done by people who do not legally own the guns.

Rather than increase the punishment for those people (who actually commit the crimes), the Democrats would rather "infringe" upon the rights of the 98% (decent people) who own guns for pleasure, target shooting, and self-defense.

Take all of the guns away from honest people, and criminals will have free reign.

Face it or not, the US is in a "wild west" state (the police know this already, that is why they are so quick on the draw), and disarming honest, law-abiding people, will only result in increased assaults, robberies, and rapes.

[hazz]

I believe a Mr H of germany positively encouraged gun ownership, which were later used to fight off an invasion by british, american and russian armies to little effect.

then I guess we will get the rinse and repeat claims

• that gun controlled UK is a more violent place than the US because the UK's assault rates are higher. That the UK counts all assaults where violence is used, threatened, whilst the US only counts the much less common aggravated assault where firearms or the victim required medical treatment. This litre trick the US uses to reduce their acassult crime rate is repeated for sexual offence rate caculations and consequently artificially reduced the overall crime rate. After all fiddling the stats is a very quick and cheap way to reduce crime
  
• that the gun crime rate has increased in the uk, ignoring the fact that even so the firearm murder rate is 3000% higher in the US
  
• the people will still kill with alternative weapons, despite this not being the case in the UK where the non firearm murder rate is very similar to that of the US
  
• We will hear that immediately after gun control measures were introduced in australia were was an increase in gun crime. nothing will be said about the subsequent 10-15 years because its been going down.
  
• Then we will get lots of made up quotes by Thomas Jefferson that he never made
  
• followed by a lot of quote mining of people like Ronald Reagan who often were quite into gun control.

however before that all happens, the thread will go to the dog house, where all of the other gun threads live. something that barbaro is very aware of

At the end of the day, the UK has very low gun crime rates thats because everyone is degunned.

• citizens are deguned so when they get angry all they can do is hit people, when they feel suicidal they don't have a gun handy to do the job and their kids don't get hold of them and start shooting people and themselves.
  
• criminals don't carry guns often because its just not worth the risk, possession alone is worth 4-5 years in jail and 2 people in the uk have just been given nearly 30 years each for firing their guns during a riot and not injuring or killing a single person. The great thing for the police is that a criminal carrying a gun is breaking the law, not a citizen executing his 2nd amendment rights... so there's no need to wait until they shoot soemone to arrest them.
  
• the police are routinely unarmed and still manage to police the UK with 70 police officers being shot and killed in the last 110 years. compared to 100-170 per year in the US.

[sabang]

the politicians who scream so loudly for "gun control" (Democrats)

There are many republican politicians screaming for this too, Michael Bloomberg being one prominent example. Most gun owners are 'screaming' (to borrow your invective) for this too- sensible gun owners have no problems with background checks, sensible gun owners don't want the loonies out on the streets (or in schools, cinemas and political rallies) with assault weapons and semi-auto pistols. Don't confuse gun owners with gun nuts- but that of course is exactly what the nuts want you to do. The gun nuts are a small, largely unhinged minority- many of whom are still fighting the civil war

In contrast, the gun nuts are screaming about fascism, the US government tooling up to invade it's own country (), video games, happy pills, you name it. I can tell which way my loonymeter is pointing.

[Norton]

Opposition to banning of "assault weapons" I can understand but believe it will make a difference in killing sprees even though far from eliminating them.

What I don't understand is the opposition to all gun purchases being subject to checks prior to sale. Exemption of checks if person to person (gun show) sale is a loophole which needs to be fixed.

[Jesus Jones]

https://teakdoor.com/issues/29060-gun...ry-lesson.html
https://teakdoor.com/us-domestic-issu...-in-peril.html

[sabang]

Take all of the guns away from honest people, and criminals will have free reign.

Whatever the merits of this pov, it has nothing to do with the current legislation. The US will remain by far the easiest first world nation in the world to get and carry a gun, even if all of the proposals are adopted- but even this does not appear to be the case. It looks like the assault weapons ban may not make it to Congress, rather be scrapped by the Senate in favor of regulating ammo clips only. This seems pretty pragmatic to me, because lets face it quite a few otherwise grown men in the US do have an outsized attachment to this wannabe military type paraphernalia- and pragmatists don't really care about that, they only care about the damage that can be wrought with these weapons in the wrong hands. When I see these proud recent photo collections of 'look at my weapons' on the net, it seems to be mostly assault rifles. Whoever these gun nuts are they are mostly not members of the hunting fraternity, who would cringe to be seen with such a weapon in the field.

[RickThai]

the politicians who scream so loudly for "gun control" (Democrats)

There are many republican politicians screaming for this too, Michael Bloomberg being one prominent example. Most gun owners are 'screaming' (to borrow your invective) for this too- sensible gun owners have no problems with background checks, sensible gun owners don't want the loonies out on the streets (or in schools, cinemas and political rallies) with assault weapons and semi-auto pistols. Don't confuse gun owners with gun nuts- but that of course is exactly what the nuts want you to do. The gun nuts are a small, largely unhinged minority- many of whom are still fighting the civil war

In contrast, the gun nuts are screaming about fascism, the US government tooling up to invade it's own country (), video games, happy pills, you name it. I can tell which way my loonymeter is pointing.

I beg to differ, but "sensible gun owners" are not all for background checks. Many states in the US already have background checks and all that does is add a delay and extra cost to the purchase of the guns. I forget the percentage of "denied" but it is fairly low, and sometimes returns false "denied" and WHAT IS MOST TELLING TO ME, is that the felons who have tried to purchase the weapons (illegally) ARE NOT CHARGED with a crime!

[RickThai]

I just watched a PBS show talking about Guns in America. This is a fairly recent show, produced after the SANDY HOOK shootings.

Although, I got the impression the show was anti-gun, pro gun-control overall, one of the statistics they talked about was in 2012, Chicago had 448 (or 484) murders committed in the city, and this was a city where it is 100% illegal to purchase a gun, or carry a gun! Unsurprisingly, something like 78% of the people murdered were black or hispanic. Although the show left out the race of the suspects, it doesn't take a genus to realize that in almost all cases the people were murdered by blacks and hispanics.

So maybe the best solution would be to make it illegal for blacks and hispanics to own guns? That would probably cut the gun-violence down by 80% or more.

[Camel Toe]

is that the felons who have tried to purchase the weapons (illegally) ARE NOT CHARGED with a crime!

Maybe that's because, 1, there are already 6 men crammed into a prison cell made for 4 .. 2, he has yet to shoot at anybody.

[RickThai]

is that the felons who have tried to purchase the weapons (illegally) ARE NOT CHARGED with a crime!

Maybe that's because, 1, there are already 6 men crammed into a prison cell made for 4 .. 2, he has yet to shoot at anybody.

Although I do think "felonies" are handed out too frequently (i.e. kicking your dog when it bites you, calling someone a racial slur "hate crime", etc), the fact is that most of the people in prison deserve to be in prison and if it is too crowded build more prisons (or else use swift capitol punishment for more crimes).

Passing more and more useless laws that are selectively enforced has only resulted in less respect for "rule of law" among the citizens (and illegal aliens).

Lack of respect for laws and people, coupled with selective enforcement (i.e. how many years did Wicked Willie Clinton get for his felony perjury?), is one of the main reasons so many people are getting shot and killed.

BTW most gun murders are not committed with "assault" weapons, because they are too bulky and too expensive. Most murders involving guns use handguns, because they are easy to steal and easy to conceal.

[sabang]

Senators near a deal on background checks for most private gun sales

A bipartisan group of senators is on the verge of a deal that would expand background checks to all private firearms sales with limited exemptions, but significant disagreements remain on the issue of keeping records of private gun sales, according to aides familiar with the talks.
Senators near a deal on background checks for most private gun sales - The Washington Post


They are apparently tackling the easiest bits first- background checks and interstate trafficking. Looks like these gun laws is real.

[Cujo]

I just watched a PBS show talking about Guns in America. This is a fairly recent show, produced after the SANDY HOOK shootings.

Although, I got the impression the show was anti-gun, pro gun-control overall, one of the statistics they talked about was in 2012, Chicago had 448 (or 484) murders committed in the city, and this was a city where it is 100% illegal to purchase a gun, or carry a gun! Unsurprisingly, something like 78% of the people murdered were black or hispanic. Although the show left out the race of the suspects, it doesn't take a genus to realize that in almost all cases the people were murdered by blacks and hispanics.

So maybe the best solution would be to make it illegal for blacks and hispanics to own guns? That would probably cut the gun-violence down by 80% or more.

Looking at those figures it would.
It's a bit like profiling.
On the other hand, what racial group do the vast majority of MASS school shootings belong to?
Figure that out, then take guns away from that goup and that will solve the mas shootings at schools.

[Camel Toe]

the fact is that most of the people in prison deserve to be in prison and if it is too crowded build more prisons (or else use swift capitol punishment for more crimes).

The fact is prisons are big business. I don't think a guy who sells weed should share a cell with four guys who murdered their mothers.

As for race, as mentioned, it's White people who do the mass killings. If you want to attach race to criminals why stop there? Go after the rednecks, KKK, Skinheads, any White supremacist. Were I an inmate, as divided by race as the institution is, I'd hang out with Latinos first, Blacks second and Whites third, if I could but it isn't allowed.

Another thing. if you think race has so much to do with violence, what about a man who's half Black and half White .. is his probability for committing a crime half of what it is for a black Black man? It isn't about race per se. It's about being a minority and being discriminated all your fookin life. If the Black population grew enormously in numbers and as a political force, reached a point where the Whites were the ones with a low ceilings then it'd be the White who filled the prisons. Then we could say, damn, those filthy White people just never learn, all the violent crimes seem to be White on White. Or is there a gene that makes you want to shoot a gun?

[Boon Mee]

7TH CIRCUIT LETS POSNER RULING STAND

BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation today won a significant victory for concealed carry when the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals let stand a December ruling by a three-judge panel of the court that forces Illinois to adopt a concealed carry law, thus affirming that the right to bear arms exists outside the home.

The ruling came in Moore v. Madigan, a case filed by SAF. The December opinion that now stands was written by Judge Richard Posner, who gave the Illinois legislature 180 days to “craft a new gun law that will impose reasonable limitations, consistent with the public safety and the Second Amendment…on the carrying of guns in public.” That clock is ticking, noted SAF Executive Vice President Alan Gottlieb.

“Illinois lawmakers need to create some kind of licensing system or face the prospect of not having any regulations at all when Judge Posner’s deadline arrives,” Gottlieb said. “They need to act. They can no longer run and hide from this mandate.”

“We were delighted with Judge Posner’s ruling in December,” he continued, “and today’s decision by the entire circuit to allow his ruling to stand is a major victory, and not just for gun owners in Illinois. Judge Posner’s ruling affirmed that the right to keep and bear arms, itself, extends beyond the boundary of one’s front door.”

In December, Judge Posner wrote, “The right to ‘bear’ as distinct from the right to ‘keep’ arms is unlikely to refer to the home. To speak of ‘bearing’ arms within one’s home would at all times have been an awkward usage. A right to bear arms thus implies a right to carry a loaded gun outside the home.”

Judge Posner subsequently added, “To confine the right to be armed to the home is to divorce the Second Amendment from the right of self-defense described in Heller and McDonald.”

SAF Press Release :: 7TH CIRCUIT LETS POSNER RULING STAND; HUGE WIN FOR CCW, SAYS SAF

A victory for common sense that. Let's see where Chicago and places like take this ruling.

[Rainfall]

Take all of the guns away from honest people, and criminals will have free reign.

Do you imply that you belong to the honest people?

[barbaro]

7TH CIRCUIT LETS POSNER RULING STAND

BELLEVUE, WA – The Second Amendment Foundation today won a significant victory for concealed carry when the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals let stand a December ruling by a three-judge panel of the court that forces Illinois to adopt a concealed carry law, thus affirming that the right to bear arms exists outside the home.

A note on Bellevue, WA.

I've had 2 concealed weapons carry permits from Washington state.

I filled out the application, had my fingerprints taken and sent to FBI headquarters in Qauntico, VA.

CCW permits are very important.

And LOOK AT THE STATISTICS on Concealed Carry.

Number of crimes committed by CCW holders
Guns used in crimes by CCW holders

Extremely low.

It's about law-abiding citizens using their right to protect themselves.

CCWs are a good thing.

In my state, I would definitely not want to take a chance of robbing a man or a woman at an ATM or elsewhere because they may be carrying.

[Camel Toe]

Number of crimes committed by CCW holders
Guns used in crimes by CCW holders

Extremely low.

Really? I would never have guessed.

So here you have a person who is inclined to do what the law asks of him and he's less likely to commit a crime. Amazing!

[Boon Mee]

Number of crimes committed by CCW holders
Guns used in crimes by CCW holders

Extremely low.

Really? I would never have guessed.

So here you have a person who is inclined to do what the law asks of him and he's less likely to commit a crime. Amazing!

That's why background checks are a vitally important part of Gun Control.

[barbaro]

the fact is that most of the people in prison deserve to be in prison and if it is too crowded build more prisons (or else use swift capitol punishment for more crimes).

The fact is prisons are big business. I don't think a guy who sells weed should share a cell with four guys who murdered their mothers.

As for race, as mentioned, it's White people who do the mass killings. If you want to attach race to criminals why stop there? Go after the rednecks, KKK, Skinheads, any White supremacist. Were I an inmate, as divided by race as the institution is, I'd hang out with Latinos first, Blacks second and Whites third, if I could but it isn't allowed.

Another thing. if you think race has so much to do with violence, what about a man who's half Black and half White .. is his probability for committing a crime half of what it is for a black Black man? It isn't about race per se. It's about being a minority and being discriminated all your fookin life. If the Black population grew enormously in numbers and as a political force, reached a point where the Whites were the ones with a low ceilings then it'd be the White who filled the prisons. Then we could say, damn, those filthy White people just never learn, all the violent crimes seem to be White on White. Or is there a gene that makes you want to shoot a gun?

I may have missed it, but who said "race has much to do with violence?"