I don't think much of this, but here is an original news report:
YouTube - Nov. 9, 1989: The Berlin Wall Falls
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I don't think much of this, but here is an original news report:
YouTube - Nov. 9, 1989: The Berlin Wall Falls
Well it just seems like this event happened yesterday...........How time flies!
I know a lot of former West Germans who are still pissed off about the wall coming down though. :mid:
^ Yes, the Western Germans had to pay for it.
Here's another video - a history:
YouTube - Berlin Wall 1961 - 1989
I remember their fat arsed Chancellor (forgot his name) told the German people that Germany would only need two years to economically reccover from the reunification :rofl: :rofl:
was it Helmut Cole?
^ forgive the awful soundtrack in the background.
Here's another new one:
YouTube - The Rise and Fall of the Berlin Wall
No, and he didn't play for Arsenal or Tottenham.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdigit
Helmut Kohl . . . Kohl is another word for Kraut in German . . . Apt!
A momentous thing to have happened . . . from something that never should have occurred in the first place . . . Superpower games
Also called The Black Giant because he is not only wide but high as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by panama hat
Even though my father was born in a W. German British army camp. Cold war and communism and the nuclear threat seem so wholey different to the world today make it like ancient history. "A week is along time in politics" so 20 years is a fucking eon
Had it not been for the Brits and Americans, there would have been no Berlin wall. Under Harry Truman and Churchill, the Russians were forced to conceed to an East and West Germany, and thus the wall. Had not the Americans left many thousands of tanks in Germany at the end of the war, to deter the Russians, most if not all of Europe would have become part of the USSR. The German people finally saw that capitalism and not communism, was they way to better future and took to the streets.
I read a very interesting historical account of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBobThai
British General Montgomery and US General Patton were heading east towards Berlin very quickly. The German troops fell apart and were just fleeing back east. The Brits and Americans were moving east at full speed - until:
They ran out of gasoline. The had to basically halt, and wait to be supplied with more gasoline. Then it was a decision between Montgomery or Patton, which one of them would get the gasoline.
This allowed the Soviet Red Army to move as far west as they did.
That's not what I heard. There was an agreement on the splitting up of areas between the three allies Russia, US and UK. So they stopped to let Russia occupy their part mainly. In the meantime the US moved into Peenemünde to get the V2 and the scientists who had developed it. That was a bigger concern for them than reaching Berlin, that would be shared according to plan anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Plus the minor twist the US and UK let France in on the club of winners and gave them a part of their areas.
Had Stalin not opened the Eastern front the Britain would have been crushed. The USSR fought a bloody war and lost millions of lives to defeat the Nazis. Americas paltry European force was irelevant compared to Russia's struggle. The US did help win the war by supplying TNT and converting some civilian factories to supply Britain which was being choked under seige. The USSR won WW2 in battle while America took credit for the defeat of the Nazis. And then only allowed white soldiers to participate in the symbolic liberation of Paris (Rather ironic that they had been fighting a racial supremacist ideology and perhaps himts to the idea that if the Nazis had won they would be America's key anti Communist front in Europe...)Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyBobThai
That's the more historically correct version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers
The fall of the Berlin wall, what a happy moment was it. Being born in West Berlin and having half of my mother's family in the east part of the city, we went to Berlin on the 10th of november.
We paid dearly for the reunification but even though a lot of the east germans are ungrateful bastards I still think it is money well spent.
Thanks for the correction, both poster.Quote:
Originally Posted by FabianThat's the more historically correct version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers
The fall of the Berlin wall, what a happy moment was it. Being born in West Berlin and having half of my mother's family in the east part of the city, we went to Berlin on the 10th of november.
We paid dearly for the reunification but even though a lot of the east germans are ungrateful bastards I still think it is money well spent.
Fabian
I'm very curious (as an ignorant non-German).
Did East Germans accept the "Soviet System?"
What I mean is, German before 1945+ was anti-communist under Hitler, correct?
Then East German became "communized."
How did East German go from National Socialism to Communism, Soviet Style?
Because they were defeated? Or, they were actually apolitical?
Excuse my ignorance.
And when you say you were born in West Berlin but many of your family members were in the Eastern area, were you able to visit, say, for a few hours or a day?
Or, was it impossible.
Pardong the ignorance.
I have a friend to this day, who was born in west Berlin in 1953, still harbors ill feeling toward the American government to this day. Had it not been for the U.S. and Britian, he might have starved to death. We will never see eye to eye on this point.
Hi Milkman
Germany always had a strong left. Under the Nazis they had to go into hiding like any independent political force.
There were actually the Communists and the Social Democrats as strong groupings. When the Soviets formed the east German DDR they forcibly united the two groups into the SED, meaning Socialist Unity Party of Germany that ruled the DDR.
In free democratic elections this party could not have won any election. The way elections were run however the thrilling question about the outcome woud be if the SED would get 99,86% or 99,93% of the vote.
They had to build the wall eventually because they were losing all the educated and capable people going to the west. That drain would have caused the DDR to collapse.
To survive people in the DDR had to be apolitical and to get ahead and into leading positions they had to join the SED. Without that their children were often even denied higher education.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Before reunification the DDR like most of the Communist Block Countries were close to economical collapse. Unfortunately many in the East are not aware of that or deny it. Many elderly lost their jobs and say now "Well at least there was no unemployment then. So not everything was bad."
At the time of reunification there was a number of left wing politicians in the West who whould have liked to avoid reunification and rather start a new socialist experiment in the East. But the large majority of the people in the East did not want this.
And today even if there are many negative comments about the situation from almost anybody, very few would actually like to go back and change it all.
^ Thanks, Takeovers.
I was born in 1970 and took an interest in the entire concept of the Berlin Wall and the "Iron Curtain" growing up.
E. and W. Berlin was especially intriguing - and strange. West Berlin was like a little island, surround by East Germany.
Another ignorant question.
To go from West Berlin, through East Germany to West Berlin,
you took a train, right? So, there was a train track line available, and technically off-limits to the East German official and of course citizens, correct?
Flying into West Berlin was impossible correct (for a plane to land)?
Incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Thanks for the correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by panama hat
I did recall in school in Jr. High, my teacher saying there are 3 flight paths that were allowed from the West to reach Berlin.
But I wasn't sure.
If planse to land and take off, Berlin must have been bigger than my perception of how small it was.
I'll check the square Km of West Berlin, now.
Hi Milkman
The only uncontrolled route from and to Berlin were three air corridors which had been agreed between the war allies. Those corridors had exactly determined positions in direction and height and they were designed for propellor airplanes which made them very uncomfortable for people like me with travel sickness. Jets usually fly much higher in less turbulent air.
Berlin had three airports, one US, that's the famous Tempelhof Airport the worldwide first commercial airport right in the Center of the City. There was also Tegel (french) and Gatow (british).
There were also trains running and transit roads but those were subject to controls and could not be used by people ad odds with the DDR, like those who had fled from there.
The situation in Berlin was bizarre in some respects. A closed border very near in any direction. There was also a tunnel for commuter trains that ran from one part of West Berlin through the Center of East Berlin to another part of West Berlin without stopping and going through abandoned closed stations in the East part.
After the fall of the wall this tunnel provided the first good connection between the parts of the City. It took only days until those closed stations were recommissioned and opened to the public.
I assume these planes were smaller b/c of the propeller, but West Berlin must have been decent size, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers
Very interesting - and strange.Quote:
There were also trains running and transit roads but those were subject to controls and could not be used by people ad odds with the DDR, like those who had fled from there.
The situation in Berlin was bizarre in some respects. A closed border very near in any direction. There was also a tunnel for commuter trains that ran from one part of West Berlin through the Center of East Berlin to another part of West Berlin without stopping and going through abandoned closed stations in the East part.
After the fall of the wall this tunnel provided the first good connection between the parts of the City. It took only days until those closed stations were recommissioned and opened to the public.
Could you make a day trip to East Berlin to say, eat lunch or dinner w/ family in East Berlin, and then return that same day?
Or, was this forbideen, or only allowed on rare occasion, say once or twice per year?
Tempelhof could accomodate only medium sized airplanes and was closed last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Tegel was extended as a modern airport. Figures for 2007
13.345.188 Passengers
145.423 starts and landigs of commercial airplanes smaller than the 747
And all that in the middle of a densely populated area.
But in 2011 the new Berlin International Airport outside the City will hopefully be operational and then Tegel will be closed.
Quite decent. We were lucky enough to have a lot of forest, a few lakes and 2 rivers inside the City Limits. It was quite livable really with good recreational value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
For a long time after building the wall it was impossible except for occations like weddings and funerals in the family. Much later an agreement was reached. You could visit East Berlin for a day trip, but you had to get a permission in advance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
I did it only once with my wife. I think it was in the late 70s or early 80s. It was a strange place. On some official routes where parades were held and official state guests would pass the street was mainly in a good shape and at least the facades of the buildings were looking ok.
But if you got off those routes only 20m into a side street, you could still see damage from the fighting at the end of the war in many buildings. And nothing of that changed until reunification.
Takeovers,
Thanks for the answers.
The economy must have been limited.
What WAS, the economy. What did your family do to make a living, (if I may ask)?
I'm curious.
You remind me of that crazy ugly ole lady Thatcher !Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdigit
London, Nov. 5 (UPI) -- Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was strongly opposed to the reunification of East and West Germany, secret French files show.
The Times of London reported France revealed documents Thursday that describe Thatcher was particularly concerned at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall about how reunification would impact then-West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl.
"Kohl is capable of anything," Luc de La Barre de Nanteuil, then ambassador to Britain, quoted Thatcher of saying in March 1990.
"He has become a different man, he does not know himself any more, he sees himself as the master and begins to act like that."
The documents, unsealed by Elysee Palace in honor of the 20th anniversary of the 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall, also portray Thatcher, a staunch conservative nicknamed the Iron Lady, as a leader who possibly relied too much on her instincts.
"She wanted to be right and be right on all points, even when her worry did not suggest any solution. She was, as always, convinced that her instinct was right," Nanteuil said in the documents.
Fuvk me sideways, it took you how long to come back with that lame reply, a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by HermantheGermanYou remind me of that crazy ugly ole lady Thatcher !Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdigit
London, Nov. 5 (UPI) -- Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was strongly opposed to the reunification of East and West Germany, secret French files show.
The Times of London reported France revealed documents Thursday that describe Thatcher was particularly concerned at the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall about how reunification would impact then-West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl.
"Kohl is capable of anything," Luc de La Barre de Nanteuil, then ambassador to Britain, quoted Thatcher of saying in March 1990.
"He has become a different man, he does not know himself any more, he sees himself as the master and begins to act like that."
The documents, unsealed by Elysee Palace in honor of the 20th anniversary of the 1989 fall of the Berlin Wall, also portray Thatcher, a staunch conservative nicknamed the Iron Lady, as a leader who possibly relied too much on her instincts.
"She wanted to be right and be right on all points, even when her worry did not suggest any solution. She was, as always, convinced that her instinct was right," Nanteuil said in the documents.
What the happened to the legendary Yerman efficiency?
He does have a point with that old witch, Thatcher, though . . . I keep scanning the obits to see if the hag has died yet
Well, she has invented the Soft Ice. That is something to be remembered for.Quote:
Originally Posted by panama hat
Takeovers has already answered most of your questions but I would like to add a few points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
Some east germans accepted socialism, some opposed, of course not too openly. The division went right through my family, not only the wall but politically too.
We have always been able to visit our relatives in west and east Berlin as my parents moved with me to Hamburg when I was 2 and west germans were never restricted unlike west berliners. We could visit the east as often as we wanted and did a few times. The only problem was the long waiting time at the border.
Most of the times we went by car. It was always a scarry experience to drive through eastern Germany on the way to Berlin.
The train was very slow. By plane was most convenient, just a 30 minute trip from Hamburg. I remember it were jet planes by PanAm. Lufthansa was not allowed to use the corridor, only planes from companies of the allies.
Thanks, Fabian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
Why was driving through East German to Berlin, "scary?"
It was like entering a prison when you passed the border control. There always was the feeling you might not get out. Irrational, but many people felt that way. I drove through countless times. The feeling got less severe with time but was still there. I always felt relieved when I was through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
^ Thanks. Yes, East Germany seemed to be a very controlled society.
The Stasi (Secret Police) apparently had spied on 1/6 of the population. 18%.
And yes, a regular citizen/family being held in East Germany would attract, what attention?
Perhaps, it would.
I wonder if it ever happened?
I think she is still going but I remember reading in the Torygraph that Thatcher's doctor had told her it was time to stop making political statements/ speaches/writings etc as her mind had declined into some form of dementia that must have been at least 5 years ago... I think her mental problems started in the 80s by the time she was unseated by J.Major she was a raving bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by panama hat
And they spied on the west. I was working for Deutsche Telekom which was an interesting entitiy for them. Once a coworker of mine passed the border control. When they handed his passport back to him they congratulated him on his recent promotion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milkman
:rofl:
Exactly. You could feel the lack of freedom. And in West Berlin I always felt a bit imprisoned too. Everything looked like in the west but you knew there was a wall around this tiny (west Berlin was just little bit mroe than half the size of Hamburg) island of freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeovers