Alternative Energy

What are the alternatives for our reliance on oil?

I came across this article about Thailand, which is a net-importer of oil:

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Thailand Learns from Brazil’s Experience in Alternative Energy (04/10/2005) https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gifThe skyrocketing prices of oil worldwide have forced all countries to seek more efficient and low-cost sources of energy. As one of the net oil-importing countries, Thailand is giving a major boost to the use of alternative energy, particularly ethanol and other bio-fuels. It is also seeking to cooperate with other countries in developing alternative transportation fuels to reduce its heavy dependence on fossil fuels and oil imports.
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continued here: Thailand official news and information

Up to date:

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Use of alternative fuel this year has so far expanded to 3% of the country’s total energy consumption compared to only 0.5% recorded last year.
Siriporn Sailasutr (สิริพร ไสละสูตร), director-general of the Alternative Energy Development and Efficiency Department, said bio-mass, scraps of wood and thermal energy are being used as alternative to fuel whose prices are soaring such as oil.

Mrs. Siriporn said use of alternative fuel was expected to grow to 8% of the total energy consumption in 2011.

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ThaisNews

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Solar Energy for Mae Hong Son

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Solar Cells for Electricity Generation
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Control Room and Inverter Equipment
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Electricity is Stored in Batteries Before
Inverting into Alternating Current.

(Bangkoksite Digital Photos taken on Feb. 18, 2004)

Mae Hong Son Solar Energy Station
Mae Hong Son is a small city in the valleys and it is
quite technically difficult and probably uneconomic to
build transmission from the nearest grid. Power supplies
for Mae Hong Son are from some small hydroelectric
dams, diesel generation and recently from a new
solar energy station, built by the Electricity Generating
Authority of Thailand (EGAT).

This is the first solar enenrgy station for Mae Hong Son
and more stations are being built to ensure sufficient
power for the growing number of tourists, and for clean
environment.

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http://www.bangkoksite.com/MaeHongSon/SolarEnergy.htm

With record high oil prices sending fuel costs skyward and world stock markets plunging, Thailand is turning to its most abundant resource, its farmland, for potentially highly profitable production of fuel alternatives.

Biofuels, derived from sources such as sugarcane, cassava, and palm oil, have become a new growth industry in countries endowed with agricultural surpluses. As one of only five major net food exporters in the world, Thailand is in an extremely competitive position to become a regional biofuels production base.
Alternate Energy Industry in Thailand

Wind Power

Although Thailand’s installed wind power capacity is less than 500 kW, GE Energy sees high potential for this energy source due to technological advances in turbine size and efficiency. Technology is now available for low wind areas, such as Thailand, with wind speeds of four-to-five meters per second.
EGAT has used 150 kW wind turbines to generate power in Phuket since 1990.

Hydropower

Environmental groups advocate the establishment of mini- and micro-hydropower plants to minimize the negative repercussions from large-scale dams. The Energy for Environment Foundation estimates that Thailand’s installed mini- and micro-hydropower capacity is approximately 350 MW. Currently, the development of hydropower is limited to government agencies, such as EGAT, the Royal Irrigation Department or community-based projects.
http://www.business-in-asia.com/energy/strenthen_sustainability.htm

The problem with any of those 'alternatives' is that they still contribute to pollution problems and global warming. What happens when the climate changes and suddenly rain pattern variance prevents a good crop one year? Does the economy collapse due to having no fuel?

It seems we should get away from combustion and find something that doesnt' require combustion. Combustion is very inefficient and will always require plundering of someone's resources.

What about the fertilizer needed to grow the crops? Our modern food miracle is nearly 100% dependent on oil for the basis of all fertilizers.

We need to do research on solar and stored power. All we're doing when we burn something is release power from the sun that was stored in a carbon form. We really don't want to keep burning stuff and releasing all that carbon back into the environment.

Just this summer here the San Joaquin Valley in CA (which produces 50% of America's vegetables and fruits) is having a tough time due to the heat wave. What happens if a heat wave wipes out the crops needed to produce ethanol?

Can't rely completely on one source of energy alone, the aim here is to diversify and reduce reliance on imported oil.

But you're right, long term solutions require a different approach alltogether.
I think, living out in the sticks here myself, community micro-powerplants using local resources are a viable option, could even charge the batteries for electro-scooters from this.

Electro scooters are an alternative to motorbikes for local travel, and I believe with rising gas prices this will become more attractive. They cost less than conventional bikes to purchase, and battery capacity, i.e. travel radius isn't bad at all, about 30-50km before recharging.

bio-willie :)

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Originally Posted by stroller

Can't rely completely on one source of energy alone, the aim here is to diversify and reduce reliance on imported oil.

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I think we're assuming that if we get rid of the oil cartels then the alternative won't try to jack us. I think that's a bad mistake. If someone has the ability to control a resource I think replacing the oil cartel with an ethanol cartel won't solve much. That's why we need to find a source of energy that doesn't rely on someone owning the resource itself.

You know what gets me about the rechargeable vehicles? You always hear that the range is limited before the batteries need recharging. Why don't we make a car where the battery carriage is removable and instead of gas stations we have battery stations? Running low on electricty? No problem, stop off and change the battery. There's no excuse why a battery carriage couldn't be universal and within a few minutes a mechanic can remove yours and replaced it with a recharged unit. Then the station can spend the time charging the battery until recharged for the next customer.

We must get away from internal combusion. It's the only way to really solve the world's pollution and energy problems.

taking all the conceivable economic factors into account, how plausible would it be for the govt. to require that all songthaews and tuk-tuks have alternative energy engines within ten or 15 years?

Supposedly the BTS buses should be on alternative fuels within 2 years. Can't say that comes too soon as it should help control some of the soot problem in Bangkok. Blech.

That's possible:

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BMTA to decommission all non-air-conditioned buses

BANGKOK: -- The Bangkok Mass Transit Authority will stop providing non-air-conditioned bus services in seven to eight months, caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said Saturday.

Thaksin said he had ordered the BMTA to stop using diesel buses but turn to use buses powered by natural gas for vehicle (NGV).

The use of NGV buses would allow the BMTA to save money enough to buy new air-conditioned buses in instalments.

As a result, he asked the BMAT to turn all buses into NGV air-conditioned buses in seven or six months.

Thaksin said the money saved from the cost of diesel oil would also allow the BMTA to manage bus fares to not affect passengers.

"So, passengers can travel comfortably by paying minimum cost," Thaksin said.

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-- The Nation 2006-08-05

Are there any places where one can buy a small wind turbine or solar panels in Thailand?

i can't tell you where you can buy them (sorry) but i do know that there are solar powered water heaters for sale in thailand.

I was thinking about solar panels to generate elastictrickery for powering airconditioners.

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Originally Posted by surasak

That's why we need to find a source of energy that doesn't rely on someone owning the resource itself.

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America will never agree to a worldwide power source that is not controlled by them. Free energy has been available for decades and has been supressed

i'm not sure but i think i remember reading something on thai visa. sorry for being so vague, but i can't remember more specifically...it seems youthful excess is catching up with me.

^^

there was a documentary released in the states recently called "who killed the electric car?"

Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006)

the link is worth checking out for the photo of mel gibson looking especially crazy.

A mini-windturbine should generate enough electric to power a ceiling fan.

A domestic hydro-electric generator will provide the energy to run a water-pump.

These are essentials to invest in as a small-holder in the boonies.

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Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Are there any places where one can buy a small wind turbine or solar panels in Thailand?

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There are several on the promontory next to Laem Promthep, at the south of Phuket island. I think they are being tested, but they've been there for years. If I find out anything more about them I'll let you know.

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Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

I was thinking about solar panels to generate elastictrickery for powering airconditioners.

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There's a guy just started posting on TV that builds and designes wind turbines, he also runs a huge farm in Korat.solar I think would be a non-starter as they have fairly low output and are very expensive. I'll post a link but have'nt had a look over there yet.

This sounds interesting, but quite a long way off. These hydrogen-powered buses just produce a whisp of steam by way of emissions.

https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif

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Originally Posted by The Guardian

London is spearheading the drive to cut pollution by investing heavily in hydrogen-powered buses.

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Guardian Unlimited Technology | Technology | The lighter route to cleaner air

Here a link to the guy that does wind generators, scroll down past all the farming stuff :)

Farming In Isaan - Thailand Forum

The trouble with wind and solar electric generation are the storage batteries which are costly and not very eco-friendly. Wind and sun plants need to be plugged into the existing power grid.

The true innovation seems to lie with technology like this.
Trouble has been that the environmentalists in AK prefer electricity derived from diesel generators!

The hydrogen powered vehicles show a great deal of promise too. Technology exists now to safely store the hydrogen in a "hydride" which had been the major stumbling block for hydrogen power.
Generating hydrogen may also be the most practical way of storing energy from wind and solar electric plants. It take a significant amount of electricity to break the water molecule.

The technology exists now to dramatically conserve fossil fuels.

Even the current hybrid cars could be dramatically improved to double their efficiency by using small diesel engines instead of gasoline power.

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Originally Posted by RDN

There are several on the promontory next to Laem Promthep, at the south of Phuket island. . If I find out anything more about them I'll let you know

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Check out Simon43 from TV and PhuketInfo.
He has land on Phuket and is doing his own energy research.
He is not a Heath Robinson type either he is a real scientist, well he says so.

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Originally Posted by RandomChances

Here a link to the guy that does wind generators, scroll down past all the farming stuff :)

Farming In Isaan - Thailand Forum

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Thanks for that. The wind turbines are not cheap either. Hmmm... What about slave labour? :dev+ang:

Let them tread the mills...

Rong Kwang prisoners would be grateful for the exercise and change of scenery. There might even be the odd Yaba tab coming their way to speed things up a bit.

I know you can import them from china. I have also been looking for a thai source.

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Originally Posted by Patongharbourview

I know you can import them from china. I have also been looking for a thai source.

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Do you know how much a slave might cost?

^a Thai or a Chinese one...? Might be able to get you an Indian as well, if you're interested...

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Originally Posted by discus2000

^a Thai or a Chinese one...? Might be able to get you an Indian as well, if you're interested...

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A cute Thai one would be best, but I definitely don't want and Indian stinking the place out.

now now, no monkey comments :D

And I thought British imperialism brought civilisation to the Indians?
Seems Marmite would like to give them another wonderful chance to become human beings through education by slave labour.
Hmm... , I never could figure out why the British are so unpopular in their former colonies....

But seriously, people are a great source of 'alternative' energy, using one's own feet to walk or cycle, for example. Popular in places like Holland and Germany, but regarded as a sign of poverty in Thailand and the Philippines.
Recycling conserves enegy as well, it has become an obsession in Germany, in developing countries it is a matter of necessity, though there is much more potential, specially in Thailand with its packaging-at-nausea culture.

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Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

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Originally Posted by discus2000

^a Thai or a Chinese one...? Might be able to get you an Indian as well, if you're interested...

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A cute Thai one would be best, but I definitely don't want and Indian stinking the place out.

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she'd only produce heat and GoW would start looking in cutlery and duck farming :cool:

but on a more serious note, not to pissoff Herr Stroller, it seems that the TH goverment (or Agency?) has a monopoly and quotas on pv panels (electricity generating photovoltaic thingies)

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Originally Posted by stroller

Hmm... , I never could figure out why the British are so unpopular in their former colonies....

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Strangely, I could never work out why we are so popular.

Everytime I see a lightning strike I think "How can we harness that?"

30 million volts a strike.

Geothermal energy tests in outback Australia seem to have potential.

DoIR - Geological Survey of Western Australia - Discover Geology - Geothermal Energy

Solar Cell Breaks the 40% Efficiency Barrier
A photovoltaic (PV) cell achieved a milestone earlier this week with a conversion efficiency of 40.7 percent. Produced by Spectrolab, Inc. -- a wholly owned subsidiary of Boeing -- and funded in part by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), the breakthrough could lead to PV systems with an installed cost of $3 per watt and produce electricity at a cost of $0.08 to $0.10 cents per kilowatt-hour.
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"These results are particularly encouraging since they were achieved using a new class of metamorphic semiconductor materials, allowing much greater freedom in multijunction cell design for optimal conversion of the solar spectrum," said Dr. Richard R. King, principal investigator of the high efficiency solar cell research and development effort. "The excellent performance of these materials hints at still higher efficiency in future solar cells."

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Originally Posted by magpie

Everytime I see a lightning strike I think "How can we harness that?"

30 million volts a strike.

Geothermal energy tests in outback Australia seem to have potential.

DoIR - Geological Survey of Western Australia - Discover Geology - Geothermal Energy

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Might be Nature's way of taunting us with such remarkable wastage, but only a matter of time before we harness either that or some other more practical form of energy.

Berlin is getting ready for the next generation of public transport. As part of an EU-sponsored project, the German capital has added four hydrogen-fueled buses to its fleet
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"During the last 10 to 15 years, we have been experimenting with modern technology that will define transport for the future," says Klaus Wazlak, spokesman for the Berlin Transportation Company (BVG). "As far as hydrogen is concerned, we can look to the future with great optimism."
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Despite its optimism, the European Union is realistic about the prospects of a hydrogen economy. "It is a bit far away," Tarradellas says. "I don't see it happening tomorrow."

Wagner agrees. "The future," he speculates, "will be a mix of natural gas, hydrogen, synthetic fuel and conventional fossil fuels."
Heralding The Hydrogen Economy: Berlin's Brave New World of Public Transport - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

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Originally Posted by stroller

Berlin is getting ready for the next generation of public transport. As part of an EU-sponsored project, the German capital has added four hydrogen-fueled buses to its fleet
...
"During the last 10 to 15 years, we have been experimenting with modern technology that will define transport for the future," says Klaus Wazlak, spokesman for the Berlin Transportation Company (BVG). "As far as hydrogen is concerned, we can look to the future with great optimism."
...
Despite its optimism, the European Union is realistic about the prospects of a hydrogen economy. "It is a bit far away," Tarradellas says. "I don't see it happening tomorrow."

Wagner agrees. "The future," he speculates, "will be a mix of natural gas, hydrogen, synthetic fuel and conventional fossil fuels."
Heralding The Hydrogen Economy: Berlin's Brave New World of Public Transport - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

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US $63,000,000 invested so far. These f*cking EU bureaucrats think money grows on trees.

Scrap the "project" now. If private enterprise isn't doing it, why waste tax-payers money on it?

(Answer: because they can.)

They have plenty of sunlight...

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Australia thinks big on solar power

Amid fears that increased energy usage could cause blackouts, the Australian government has set upon Solar energy as its saviour...

https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
Satellite technology: The plant
in Victoria, Australia, will be the
world’s largest concentrated solar
photovoltaic power station

Australia is to build the world’s biggest solar power plant after the Hong Kong-based CLP power generating group announced on Monday that it would invest $270m in the project.

The 154MW scheme, located in the south-eastern state of Victoria, would have nearly twice the capacity of the biggest existing solar power plant, in California’s Mojave desert. The Mojave system, however, links nine power plants together for a total capacity of 354MW.

The technology, originally developed to power satellites, multiplies the power of the sun 500 times. The dish has 112 curved mirrors that track the sun throughout the day.

Australia thinks big on solar power - Buying and investing in property abroad in Australia

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Found an interesting study at MIT about the possibilities of geothermal:

"Hot Rocks" for Home Energy

January 31, 2007

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Geothermal power, a renewable energy source that has been largely ignored in the United States, can supply a significant share of the country’s future energy needs, according to a new Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) study. The study notes that by investing some $1 billion over 15 years—less than the cost of building a single clean-coal power plant—geothermal energy could power about 25 million U.S. homes by 2050.

“We’ve determined that heat mining can be economical in the short term," said Jefferson Tester, a professor of chemical engineering at MIT and the head of the 18-member panel that prepared the report. The 400-page assessment, sponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy, is considered the broadest review of geothermal energy in 30 years. It is based on a global analysis of existing geothermal systems, an assessment of U.S. geothermal resources, and continuing improvements in the technologies of deep drilling and reservoir stimulation.


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Most commercial production of geothermal energy in the United States today occurs in isolated reaches of the West, where higher-grade heat sources lie closest to the surface. But the report notes that subsurface “hot rocks�? (areas of the Earth’s hard rock crust that store thermal energy) are present across the nation, offering the potential for more widespread use of the renewable resource. By drilling wells into hot rock regions and connecting them to water, geothermal developers could generate large amounts of steam that could be used to power electric generators on the surface.

Because geothermal power is derived from the Earth’s heat and from steam, the environmental impacts of geothermal development are considerably lower than those from conventional coal-fired and nuclear power plants, the report notes. Geothermal also offers an uninterrupted power supply, unlike renewable energy sources like solar and wind that are affected by weather and time of day. The downsides of geothermal, according to the study, include large water requirements, particularly in arid regions, and higher seismic risk because the easiest places to access the hot rocks are near fault lines.

https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
Figure 1.1 Schematic of a conceptual two-well Enhanced Geothermal
System in hot rock in a low-permeability crystalline basement formation.

Overall, however, the report’s authors believe that large geothermal stores could contribute significantly to U.S. energy needs, providing a viable alternative to fossil fuel use. “Geothermal energy could play an important role in our national energy picture as a non-carbon-based energy source,�? said panel member M. Nafi Toksöz, a professor of geophysics at MIT. Among the recommendations outlined in the study are conducting more detailed and site-specific assessments of the U.S. geothermal resource and making a multiyear federal commitment to demonstrate the concept in the field at commercial scale.

WorldChanging: Tools, Models and Ideas for Building a Bright Green Future: "Hot Rocks" for Home Energy

MIT releases major report on geothermal energy

I thought this thread was more up to date, but anyway, this news article fits right in here.


Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people - BBC News


Moroccan solar plant to bring energy to a million people

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A giant plant using energy from the Sun to power a Moroccan city at night will open next month.

The solar thermal plant at Ouarzazate will harness the Sun's warmth to melt salt, which will hold its heat to power a steam turbine in the evening.

The first phase will generate for three hours after dark; the last stage aims to supply power 20 hours a day.

It is part of Morocco's pledge to get 42% of its electricity from renewables by 2020. The UN has praised Morocco for the level of its ambition.

The UK, a much richer country, is aiming for 30% by the same date.

The Saudi-built Ouarzazate solar thermal plant will be one of the world's biggest when it is complete. The mirrors will cover the same area as the country's capital, Rabat.

Futuristic complex
Paddy Padmanathan of Saudi-owned ACWA Power, which is running the thermal project, said: "Whether you are an engineer or not, any passer-by is simply stunned by it.

"You have 35 soccer fields of huge parabolic mirrors pointed to the sky which are moveable so they will track the Sun throughout the day."

The developers say phase one of the futuristic complex will bring energy to a million people.

The complex stands on the edge of a gritty, flat, rust-red desert, with the snow-clad Atlas mountains towering to the North.

It is part of a vision from Morocco's King Mohammed VI to turn his country into a renewable energy powerhouse.

https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2015/11/1162.jpg
Melted salt inside this tank holds heat into the evening

The country has been 98% dependent on imported fossil fuels, but the king was persuaded of the vast capacity of Atlantic wind, mountain hydro power and scorching Saharan sun.

The king's plans are being enacted by environment minister Hakima el Haite. She told me: "We are convinced that climate change is an opportunity for our country."

As part of its national commitment to the Paris climate conference, Morocco has pledged to decrease CO2 emissions 32% below business-as-usual by 2030, conditional on aid to reach the renewables target.

Currently Morocco imports electricity from Spain, but engineers hope that will not last long.

Paddy Padmanathan predicted: "If Morocco is able to generate electricity at seven, eight cents per kilowatt - very possible - it will have thousands of megawatts excess.

"It's obvious this country should be able to export into Europe and it will. And it will not need to do anything at all… it needs to do is just sit there because Europe will start to need it."