Gavin Menzies & Controversial Studies

1434 Gavin Menzies | 1421 | Chinese Voyages | Renaissance history |medieval history | maritime exploration |Chinese Exploration | Admiral Zheng He | Chinese Junks 1421 the year china discovered America | Chinese discovered America | China 1421 | 1421 website | 1434 website The myth of Menzies' "1421 " exposed Curious to wonder if TD members are familiar with this gentlemen's work and research. Long years of controversy, putting the world systems history on it's ear and insisting they sit up from their comfortable convention. If you're not familiar with his two best-selling tomes, worth while for a different spin on historiography.

Yes, we talked about his stuff in a thread about a year ago.

I enjoyed the book and believe anything I read, so I'm sold. :)

Even though I understand that this subject matter has been covered to some point, sometime ago, I would like to add to the topic....

^ Add away, then. :)

One of many brief reviews of Mr. Menzies and his theories... Is Gavin Menzies Right or Wrong?

As a youth, I was introduced to this subject matter of the golden period of Chinese maritime explorations. Amazingly enough, such controversies didn't make such marks until Menzies examined different possibilities through his work, even though there has been {for centuries} a wealth of material, evidence, books, etc regarding this Chinese era - in Chinese, Arabic, Malay, Tamil, et al. Naturally, this never makes European scholarly circles. The years proceeding Mr. Menzies work and on his heels came a bevy of well done tomes concerning themselves with this study. The more well excepted work comes from Louise Levathes and her "When China Ruled the Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Thone, 1405-1433" and Edward L. Dryer's more scholarly work, "Zheng He: China and theOceans in the Early Ming Dynasty, 1405-1433". Outside of popular rumor and repression, tonnes of Chinese material covering this circle is quite available, and never destroyed over the suspected subsequent years {Mao's revolutionary period}.

Though most surface reviews, essays, and reviews that are available through reasonably mainstream sources tend to find Menzies work on the negative side. If one really researches deeply, there is a wealth of such positive {scientific as well as academic circles} support and create maintainence towards this highly threatening historic content. I should note...threatening to the historic convention and historiographical establishment {especially the Eurocentric 'tribe'}. A one Anatole Andro and his subjective book, " The 1421 Heresy: An Investigation into the Ming Maritime Survey of the World" is a decent read. A number of original and second-hand translations from a number of Chinese authors have been translated into many languages today under the various titles/headings of: Ming {or Chinese} Surveys of the Seas {or World's Oceans}. To browse Robert Temple's work towards Chinese studies and discoveries, "The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery, and Invention". Joseph Needham, the well-known Sinotologist can be referenced for a longer study. His multi-volumed "Science & Civilization in China" is looked upon as a definitive and sustinct study of this period {among other historic periods}........remembering a comment that Gavin Menzies relayed on a radio program. He inquired to why historians are not curious.

Another "pseudohistoric" tome by Paul Chiasson. The island of seven cities : where the Chinese settled when they discovered America [WorldCat.org]

More refuting... Refutation to Gavin Menzies

Debunking Menzies. Debunking Gavin Menzies

Our very own White Lotus Press White Lotus Press :: has a valuable resource. " The Overall Survey of the Ocean's Shores", by Ma Huan and Ying-yai Sheng-lan {1433}, translated from the original Chinese text and edited by Feng Ch'eng Chun, White Lotus Press 1997

A couple more indoctrinated and condscending reviews..... The Chinese discovered America! - Salon.com and Language Log: 1421

A little more on Zheng He. Zheng He

Wiki Discussion. Talk:Zheng He - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Talk:Treasure ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Chinese scoharly POV from Dr. Su Ming-Yang...."Seven Epic Voyages of Zheng He in Ming China". 2004....can be found online by most booksellers.

With Laura Lee.... Laura Lee Show 1421 Chinese Expedition to America ...and with Sarah Passmore in Hong Kong on the Naked Lunch program Naked Lunch-Interview with Controversial author Gavin Menzies on his new book ....with the Telegraph-UK Gavin Menzies: mad as a snake - or a visionary? - Telegraph

Instead of providing endless links without comment, can you boil it down for me (yes, I'm a lazy cnut)? I sense that China was roaming the oceans contemporaneously with Europe and it has been kept all hush hush for some reason. Also, where's the proof that China made it as far as the North American continent?

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Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

Instead of providing endless links without comment, can you boil it down for me (yes, I'm a lazy cnut)? I sense that China was roaming the oceans contemporaneously with Europe and it has been kept all hush hush for some reason. Also, where's the proof that China made it as far as the North American continent?

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Read the books...there are many.

^Read my post. There is only one.

*Hint: First line.

They have found Chinese pottery and wrecks of junk style boats around California. The pottery was mistaken for early American Indian works and was preserved in the San Francisco museum.
A species of chicken was introduced from China to the Americas, and a species of corn was brought back to grow in China.
On the North Eastern coast the author claims there was a Chinese colony that built an observatory and light house.
All dating of these events or objects coincides with the voyages of Zheng He's fleets.

1421 the year china discovered America | Chinese discovered America | China 1421 | 1421 website | 1434 website
Main page.
1434 Evidence | How China discovered the world| Gavin Menzies Research |Voyages of discovery | Chinese Shipwrecks | Chinese Exploration | Chinese Renaissance |
Tabulation of all evidence claimed in his books.
Much of which is circumstantial but compelling.
1421 Evidence | Chinese Shipwrecks | Chinese Exploration | Chinese Renaissance | How China discovered the world| Gavin Menzies Research |Voyages of discovery
Evidence of all world encounters.
1421 Evidence | Chinese Shipwrecks | Chinese Exploration | Chinese Renaissance | How China discovered the world| Gavin Menzies Research |Voyages of discovery
1421 Evidence | Chinese Shipwrecks | Chinese Exploration | Chinese Renaissance | How China discovered the world| Gavin Menzies Research |Voyages of discovery
1421 Evidence | Chinese Shipwrecks | Chinese Exploration | Chinese Renaissance | How China discovered the world| Gavin Menzies Research |Voyages of discovery
North America

I haven't read his second book yet but it appears he is now claiming that the Zheng He fleet that landed in the Mediterranean kick started the Renaiscence.

Perhaps you are a lazy cvnt. Can't help you there and certainly can't please everyone. Chances are, you've no interest in historical content or stimulation of much sort. I might guess you were sired into a society that has conditioned you to imbibe information into nice little sanitized 60 minute sound bites and diversions where "they" can easily fabricate, modify, and censor for you - a quick fix tied with a pretty little bow. Very commonly accepted amongst the sophisticated as well as the lesser classes. If you're really not interested in such matters, why bother commenting. One of principle variations of why a dronish character is celebrated, is that it accomplishes a foundation for accepted conventional wisdom and the establishment set to promote their surface products...and most of us buy into this hook, line, and sinker. Almost akin to going along to get along. Social engineering is not a terribly difficult task {en mass}, in all honesty. The proposed influence and dictates just needs to repeat something over and over again or cosmetically bring attention redundantly until the item becomes real or true. Are you threatened or offended by such a thread? Stuck way back here in the TD archives....no harm really. Laziness might be one thing, but vacancies of critical thought or questioning of authoritarian staus quo could be unhealthy. Have a lovely day, my friend.....;)

Quite often, history forums can be a compentent and varied manner into deepening understanding and gather a diverse source material. One might check out the following history forums with search words: 'Gavin Menzies'; 'Zheng He'; 'China Treasure Ships'. I have found that http://www.chinahistoryforum.com has an array of opinion toward this subject matter. History Forum :: History Discussion :: Chat :: Message Board is quite a diverse history board. All Empires: Online History Community - Home on WebWiz is equal.

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Perhaps you are a lazy cvnt. Can't help you there and certainly can't please everyone. Chances are, you've no interest in historical content or stimulation of much sort. I might guess you were sired into a society that has conditioned you to imbibe information into nice little sanitized 60 minute sound bites and diversions where "they" can easily fabricate, modify, and censor for you - a quick fix tied with a pretty little bow. Very commonly accepted amongst the sophisticated as well as the lesser classes. If you're really not interested in such matters, why bother commenting. One of principle variations of why a dronish character is celebrated, is that it accomplishes a foundation for accepted conventional wisdom and the establishment set to promote their surface products...and most of us buy into this hook, line, and sinker. Almost akin to going along to get along. Social engineering is not a terribly difficult task {en mass}, in all honesty. The proposed influence and dictates just needs to repeat something over and over again or cosmetically bring attention redundantly until the item becomes real or true. Are you threatened or offended by such a thread? Stuck way back here in the TD archives....no harm really. Laziness might be one thing, but vacancies of critical thought or questioning of authoritarian staus quo could be unhealthy. Have a lovely day, my friend.....;)

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Bloody hell, Instead of writing all that, why didn't you just summarize it for him? would've taken the same effort.

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Perhaps you are a lazy cvnt

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Already fessed up.

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Chances are, you've no interest in historical content or stimulation of much sor

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I do like history, particularly alternative views (Howard Zinn). But you gave nothing in this thread except a long string of links w/o explanation. Why not put a bit more effort into your posts?

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

I might guess you were sired into a society that has conditioned you to blah, blah, blah...

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Keep on guessing, lazy bones.

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Laziness might be one thing, but vacancies of critical thought or questioning of authoritarian staus quo could be unhealthy.

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So where is your contribution of critical thought to these theories? Links don't count as contribution, btw.

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Originally Posted by Rural Surin

Have a lovely day, my friend.....

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Right back atcha.

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Originally Posted by Dug

Bloody hell, Instead of writing all that, why didn't you just summarize it for him? would've taken the same effort.

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Exactly. Though I suspect it takes more effort to be a windbag.

RS is great at posting links - but then again, who isn't?:rolleyes:

RS - if you took the trouble to gather you links in a single post (saves space/scrolling), and then write a little comment to each link to tell us why you think it is worth checking out - then perhaps someone would actually bother giving it a second look.

At the moment, I fear you are just wasting space and time (yours mostly).

I made a similar comment on your "RS links" thread - but I guess you were too busy cutting and pasting to notice.....:)

A distantly related study, is one of the Fusang explorations by Chinese Buddhists Monks in {or around} 499 CE. There is significant evidence that these ancient mariners reach and examined what is know the West coast of America {California and Oregon} and some assorted information that they might have jumped along the coast as far as Peru....wikipedia's entry Fusang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Charles G. Leland's 1875 classic Fusang Index ....and Dr. Paul Mandala's commentary and research on assorted items within Quests of the Dragon and Bird Clan: Fusang (Glossary) Of course, there is quite a diverse assortment of sources to be found out there....this is but a snapshot.

Interesting little tid-bit from Chinese scholars toward the topic of ancient Chinese in the Western Hemisphere..... ANCIENT CHINA & ANCIENT AMERICA

An interview with Menzies that exposes the lies and deceptions behind his book:

Four Corners - 31/07/2006: Program Transcript

Wikipedia also has a short piece of him that I think says it all:

Gavin Menzies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and HM courts lists him as a vexatious litigant, which means that he is forbidden from initiating civill cases without permision from UK courts:

Vexatious litigants

Ms. Charlotte Harris Kees has created a biography and research site for her late Father, Dr. Hendon Harris, Jr., whom documented the Chinese exploration of ancient America. The Asiatic Fathers of America - www.AsiaticFathers.com ...interesting site to browse. Ms. Harris offers an interesting and insightful site as well, examining the controversy over ancient map origins The Asiatic Fathers of America - www.AsiaticFathers.com

A skeptical article appears in The Ancient American {magazine}, vol 2, issue 8 - Did the Chinese Discover America? by David L. Harvey.

As there are quite numerous books, articles, documentation, and research material addressing these topics that have pre-dated Gavin Menzies and the circle that he created. Henriette Mertz has two offerings from the 1970's Pale ink; two ancient records of Chinese exploration in America. [WorldCat.org] and another tome Gods from the Far East : How the Chinese discovered America [WorldCat.org]

Chinese map of the world {1418} Chinese Map of the World

Anatole Andro, whom has conducted extensive research towards Chinese exploration of that time {including a critical book} produced a film/video in cooperation with Diogenes Research Pre-Columbian Chinese exploration of the world evidence presentation = Zhongguo ren xian Ouzhou ren ce liang shi jie zheng cheng. [WorldCat.org] ....and among the number of investigative books coming from Chinese scholars, include: Chinese discovery of America [WorldCat.org] and Ming-Yang's admired Seven epic voyages of Zheng He in Ming China, 1405-1433 : facts, fiction and fabrication [WorldCat.org] ......the underground classic of of Gwei-Djen Lu with Joseph Needham Trans-Pacific echoes and resonances : listening once again [WorldCat.org]