Looks as if the new boy on the block is hell bent on subsidizing bad business practices. This is becoming a common trend throughout the world. And such backward thinking will always be in fashion. The people suffer.....
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Looks as if the new boy on the block is hell bent on subsidizing bad business practices. This is becoming a common trend throughout the world. And such backward thinking will always be in fashion. The people suffer.....
This sucks. As does the AIG bail-out -- apparently, the co just spent another $300k (quietly) for its exec pow wow in Phoenix. Wait for the other industries to jump on the band wagon. Airlines come immediately to mind.
Well, if were just talking about America. Add the stock market bail-out, the countinuous subsidizing of corps in general, airlines, military contractors, insurance and creditor bail-outs, banks, incredible agricultural subsidies....the list is never ending. This is not just a American phenomena {even though they are the best at it}, this is universally accepted and understood - GOVT MAINTENENCE OF PRIVATE BUSINESS. Govt should not be in business. I know this sounds extremely idealistic. The "market" is engulfed by illusion. There isn't any wealth......Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Not the stock market, the banks. I don't understand your thoughts on govt maintenance in the US, before this debacle. I see alot of policies made by almost every govt to protect their local industries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rural Surin
America doesn't have "local" industry. Service and consumption.
What don't you understand about government overlording and suppression of business? The government is in every aspect of your "free" existence....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet GorgonNot the stock market, the banks. I don't understand your thoughts on govt maintenance in the US, before this debacle. I see alot of policies made by almost every govt to protect their local industries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rural Surin
Interesting how the tub thumping rightist Bush administration has in reality proved to be Socialist.
Huh? I meant local as in domestic industries. Do you consider the auto, steel, aerospace, defense mfg sectors among others as service sectors? Methinks not. They are also strongholds of the stranglehold unions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rural Surin
any of the 'big 3' go belly up & 2.5 million lose their job. (management will still get their bonus for f'n it all up)
a carpenter friend just left my house (the new sky light will be so nice).. he said the tourist slow down in Vegas resulted in a major mall project being stopped .. 2500 union carpenters out of work overnight.
he's $28. union carpenter & scrambling to make car payments & rent .. showed up a my front door lookin' / beggin'.. he was ready / available to do a project we had talked about last year.
I'm bad ..
for my last HOME renovation I used a union dry wall worker when they were on strike (= scab) .. that guy could do amazing things with metal framing (commercial style)+ he knew dry wall tricks that were truly amazing .. arched door way w/ rounded cornors in seemingly minutes
I saw that guy a home depot recently .. he's doing meanial labor side jobs .. no union work
a HIGHLY skilled union worker with no work available.
Join a non-union shop then.
The UAW finally agreed to lower starting wages last year. But check this out: auto union workers were making more than $78 an hour PLUS benefits. C'mon. That is ludicrous. $78 an hour just for a newbie to assemble a fekin car nobody wants to buy?
``I've got a saw-mill worker in my district who's making $15 an hour,'' Representative Spencer Bachus, an Alabama Republican, said during a House committee hearing today, according to a transcript. ``And we're taking his money, and we're paying it to a company that's paying $75 an hour.''
The criticism comes a year after the union agreed to lower pay and end pensions for new hires at GM, Ford and Chrysler. (What about the other guys?)
Under the contracts, hourly pay and benefits for new hires were cut to about $26 from about $78. The 2007 accords also call for creating a union-managed trust that will take over responsibility for retiree health care obligations starting in 2010.
...The union's lobbyist in Washington, said the labor costs ``aren't out of line'' with those in U.S. factories owned by Asian and European automakers.
``We're not the problem,'' Reuther said. (BS)
`Gold-Plated Benefits'
GM said last week it may run out of money by the end of the year and won't have enough by mid-2009. (Chapter 11 is the way to go, IMO; I think it can dump the UAW then)
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the aid she envisions for automakers would come with conditions, including restrictions on executive compensation, ``a prohibition on golden parachutes'' and ``rigorous independent oversight.'' (Ya, and what about cutbacks on UNION wages, Nancy?)
The automakers want $25 billion in new government loans to address liquidity issues, including operating costs, plant investments and research costs, GM's chief lobbyist, said in a Nov. 10 letter to Congress. Separately, the UAW wants $25 billion to cover the costs of the union-run retiree health care funds. (WTF?)
The UAW is being criticized ``because they were successful,'' ...``They really did have gold-plated benefits. A lot of workers didn't come close to that.'' (Yep.)
One example, he said, was the ``jobs banks'' that enabled UAW members to receive 95 percent of their take-home pay while laid off. The 2007 contracts put new limits on the jobs banks.
Union officials say they have already sacrificed to try to benefit the automakers.
``We have been in a concessionary mode for some time and we're still in it, like it or not, because of the economics of the globe,'' UAW's Green said. ``We want to see America's auto industry survive for America, not just for us.''
The union's membership has shrunk as GM, Ford and Chrysler cut back on production jobs, falling 14 percent last year to 464,901, or less than a third of its 1979 peak of 1.5 million.
The union has had trouble winning over the public, Clark University's Chaison said.
``To some degree, 10 to 20 years ago, auto workers were idolized as the aristocrats of labor,'' he said. ``Now they're viewed as spoiled. They won the battle but lost the war.'' And good riddance to them.
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide
The US car industry is hobbled by an expensive unionised labourforce and huge financial commitments to retirees pensions and health care.
Because of this, the profit margin on their cars, is wafer thin.
They can't compete with the likes of Toyota and Honda on new models, price and quality.
Any Brit that was around in the seventies will remember the demise of the UK's car and motorbike industries, for the same reasons that are being played out in the USA.
I believe the intervention in the financial markets was the correct move to make, but, I don't believe bailing out the US car makes sense.
It's going down anyway, in the long run.
^ Agree, SirB. Unless the dinosaurs reinvent themselves, shed the union burden and streamline, they will be dust. I am interested if the big three file for Chapter 11, if they can get rid of the unions. Will research United Airlines for that. The UAW is strong tho, and I wouldn't doubt that they are helping to drive Pelosi into doing the bailout.
Quite aside from parcels of hard currency under the table, condition the people into accepting you and your practices, and when it goes wrong you can ask to be bailed out in order to continue serving the people so the gov can get more taxes. Laughable, but it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
The likes of Toyota, Honda & Benz also have a unionised workforce, and massive pension schemes. Toyota and Honda manufacture quite succesfully in the US too. The buck stops with poor management, I reckon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Burr
Recall how the government bailed out the railroads for $19 B in the 70s? They took 5 separate companies and formed Conrail. Might they do the same with US auto makers/airlines?
Check out this site for other bailouts.
Bailout Aftermaths - ProPublica
I'm opposed to them all.
Let the yank tanks sink, :smile:
The whole concept of bail outs is ridiculous. When it comes to business, I am a Darwinist. Survival of the fittest! Enterprises that have products or services that appeal to the consumer will be profitable and thrive, those that don't need to be relegated to the tar pits along with other species who couldn't adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texpat
I am also totally opposed to bailing out consumers who have irresponsibly found themselves in debt beyond their ability to pay said debts.
A government that coddles it's businesses or citizens by bailing them out will only reap what they sow. Further irresponsible behavior!
It's much like paying college tuition.
The guy who scrimps and saves for his kid's education, eating soup and sandwiches and foregoing the weeklong fishing trips, is rewarded with proportionately higher pricetag than the schmuck who proudly exhibits his empty savings accounts and quietly conceals his BMW and vacation house in Tahoe.
It's just wrong.
The Us car industry has always produced inefficient, poorly designed and badly built cars, its a management problem that they have never got to grips with.
Nothing wrong with US manufactures in general but the Auto industry has for the last 30 yrs lagged behind the rest of the world and now its so far behind they are being lapped.
Its way too late to play catch up now, the Government should see it for what it is, a sunset industry thats best left to others to handle.
Any money that goes into it now is just being pissed up against the wall.
^ Not only mgmt, Norts. The unions sucked them for alot, too.
Slightly off-topic but just watched Top Gear and they were quite impressed with the new range of muscle cars from the Big 3 US manufacturers.
So how ironic is that; they're all in financial strife and they finally manage to start making cars that could be appreciated by the European market. :)
Didn't we do this thread three months ago?
At $59 a bbl, ain't no way Yanks en mass will drive that shitty Euro crap you call cars. :)
Really? They're quite partial to Japanese cars though aren't they; part of the reason US manufacturers are struggling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Texpat
Yep but I only get sucked when I allow it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Its all a management problem, the unions only got away with whatever weak management let them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Ford had a chance for long term survival when they had Jaq Nasser (Jaq the knife) at the helm, he dealt properly with the Firestone issue, he made some tough calls on product direction, down sizing and quality improvement, but he pissed off the Ford family because they didn't agree, erroneously in this case so he was ditched.
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2008/11/459.jpg
A Honda Jazz just ain't gonna cut it.
https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
Toyota Prius up for it? Not a chance.
https://teakdoor.com/images/smilies1/You_Rock_Emoticon.gif
How many horses does a VW have?
https://teakdoor.com/images/imported/2008/11/460.jpg
Thanks, but no thanks.
Agree with you there. That was back when the big three were kings, flush with cash and could could do no wrong. Now the unions are squabbling amongst themselves, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpanIts all a management problem, the unions only got away with whatever weak management let them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Anyone know if the cos. can cut the unions if they file for Chapter 11? For sure renegotiations on wages and benefits.
rThese greedy fcuks are getting $78 an hour..... nothing more than greedy scum. Offer those jobs to the public at $25 and you got a line up. If they are worth $78 then they should have no problem finding another job for $78. Also, since they are suppose to be worth $78 an hour they should easily be able to find many many $50 - $60 an hour jobs. You show me something worth $78 that sells for $50 - $60 and I'll show you a supply problem. Can you imagine a computer factory staffed with these shitballs??? Out of business first day. Fact is, these slobs can't even find a $15 job. The $78 is the result of many years of union extortion. Their main skill is being in a union and complaining about management.... not valuable. Non-union shops want nothing to do with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
I don't support any of them, I buy cheap used my cars.
Sorry if I offended any union members, truth hurts.
^ Now, now, Jim, the $78 an hour deal was only for NEW hires.
Hey, why better yourself? Drop out of high school, grease the union, and hey, $78 an hour PLUS healthcare and pension plan! Gotta love the UAW.
^ Even worse than I thought. Free markets require supply and demand work hand in hand. I know many tax paying welders and machinists making $20 - 30 an hour, equally or more skilled than UAW workers, with mush less benefits and no job security in a downturn. Management main fault is not bankrupting the auto companies sooner.
This is from last year, but maybe you have the latest news, Sabang.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabang
LOS ANGELES: The United Auto Workers, which has yet to organize a U.S. plant built by an Asian carmaker, was to have held over the weekend its second event this year aimed at convincing Toyota employees in Kentucky that they need union representation.
UAW Stepping Up Drive to Organize Toyota's U.S. Plant Workers - International Herald Tribune
GEORGETOWN, Ky. -- Dissident workers at the Toyota plant here gather at the Best Western Georgetown on Wednesdays between shifts to shape a battle plan. The workers are angry at conditions at this flagship Toyota site, where the best-selling Camry is built.
The United Auto Workers has launched a big new push to organize the plant, trying to capitalize on fears of lower pay, outsourcing of jobs and on Toyota's treatment of injured workers. The stakes for the UAW intensified this month as a private-equity firm agreed to buy Chrysler, raising fears that the union will be unable to block cuts in jobs and benefits at a privately owned automaker.
The UAW has never succeeded in organizing a foreign auto assembly plant in the US, but Toyota's emergence as the world's largest automaker has added urgency to this effort.
In Kentucky, Toyota Faces Union Rumblings - washingtonpost.com
I am no big fan of the UAW, and I would agree they are part of the reason the big three have ended up where they are today. But the wages cited in this thread seem really high to me – so I did a bit of looking around, and this is what I found.
Anything close to the $70+ dollars an hour generally include legacy costs associated with retired employees. And while that number has value as it relates to the companies ability to compete in the marketplace it does not accurately reflect the income of the average autoworker.
Beat the Press Archive | The American Prospect
Here are some links to sites that have actual wages and they tend to be between $25-$40 per hour – plus benefits. This is still much hirer than the average manufacturing worker in the US.
New Contract Protects Wages, Provides Four Lump Sums - UAW/Chrysler Hourly Contract 2007
TheStar.com | Business | Ford workers accept deal to freeze wages
Here is a link that shows the cost of TOTAL compensation as they compare to the Japanese automakers, and university professors with PHD’s. As can easily be seen here it is going to be pretty hard for them to survive when they pay around 50% more in total compensation then their Japanese competitors.
CARPE DIEM: Transformational UAW Deal? Accept Professors' Pay
Now this link included info on wages, but also give a break-down of the total cost of labor per vehicle. Problem is I doubt the chart is accurate of the total cost of labor, but even if the cost is off by 100%, the cost of labor is still a rather small portion of the total cost of the vehicle.
Wages and labor costs - UAW Bargaining 2007
I used to live in an area that had a number of GM and GM related employees (Dephi and such). Their base salary is hardly indicative of the average pay, as most of them qualified for some form a shirt, or job related premium, and they pulled down oodles of cash for working overtime, weekend, and holiday shifts. I know a number of them that have taken advantage of the buy-outs and early retirement packages that have been offered by the big three. Some I think we get stuck holding the bag (early retirement folks) ‘cause I doubt the long-term ability of the big three to pay (both the specified retirement pay as well as the health benefits and such). On the other hand I know of some that took buy-outs that saw the writing on the wall, took what they could get, and started fresh somewhere else.
I have several relatives that have worked or are currently working in union jobs. And I think there is a place in the US for unions, and IMHO they are the main reason that the US ended up with a significant middle class sector in the first place. So I thank them for what they did in the past, and I wish them the best in the future. But by and large the unions themselves have become monsters that are not looking out for the best interest of anyone except the union.
One relative in particular that was regularly involved in contract negotiations and used to bemoan how easily the workers he represented would fold for a cash bonus now, as apposed to wage increases that would build to much more over the long haul. Poor guy was a wreck every time contract time rolled around, trying to figure out how to get them to not cave for the bonus.
The advantage Toyota has is the UAW cannot shut them down with a strike. Toyota can switch to importing cars during a strike which makes an even playing field .... workers get unemployment, Toyota imports ... and the strike goes on ... and the strike goes on... Eventually they both say F this and go back to work making cars.
I'll never understand the massive trade imbalance the US puts up with decade after decade. It was $820B in 2006, $770B in '05 ...
We've stopped making almost everything. We're labeled as a glutenous consumer society. When the shit hits the fan and we stop snapping up everything that Japan and Germany and China makes, they fall flat on their faces faster than we do, and then they whine that we're not supporting their manufacturing ... :)
The service society America has become will bite us in the ass. It's unhealthy to be so one-dimensional.
The sharp decline of the dollar vis-a-vis many currencies simultaneously this time last year meant those imported goods got real expensive in a hurry. The gluttons stopped buying and the world started creaking to a standstill.
I agree with Milton Friedman that trading pieces of green paper for cars and ships and computers and jetskis is a great idea if those dead presidents never make it back to America -- but we're losing leverage that would be maintained if we'd make more shit at home.
In that sense I think it's a bad thing if US auto makers die. But I'm not excited about bailing anyone out.
As far as I know the UAW has yet to penetrate Toyota with the exception of the NUMMI plant which I believe was Toyota’s first venture into the US, and is a joint operation with GM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Needless to say with the problems at GM things don’t look real good out in NUMMI right now:
NUMMI employees in Fremont may face layoffs - 11/07/08 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com
With things going as poorly as they are for the big three, I don't think the UAW has much going for it to promote how good they are for the long term good of the employees in their attempts to convince current non-union shops to join them on their way down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
Hey Tex, this is a great moment!Quote:
Originally Posted by Texpat
You are coming round to my point of view on the US (and UK) economy...
:)
Yes, I'll admit, I never expected things to get like this. :(
What goes well with crow?
Would you like the pie hot or cold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Texpat
:)
Anyway, on a serious note, my 'big one' that I predicted in June is now on the horizon of the mainstream media:
https://teakdoor.com/us-domestic-issu...tml#post833794