Endorsement or condemnation?

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'When John McCain was my captive'


By Andrew Harding
BBC News in Haiphong, Vietnam



Tran Trong Duyet - a sprightly retiree and amateur ballroom dancer - must rank as one of John McCain's more unlikely supporters.
Four decades ago, during the Vietnam war, Mr Duyet was in charge of the notorious Hoa Lo prison - the place where Mr McCain says he was brutally beaten and tortured during five-and-a-half years as an American prisoner of war.
"McCain is my friend," said 75-year-old Mr Duyet as he feeds the caged birds he now keeps in his garden in this coastal city.
"If I was American, I would vote for him."
Informal chats
Navy pilot John McCain was shot down during a bombing raid over the North Vietnamese capital, Hanoi, in 1967.
He ejected from his aircraft and parachuted into a city lake - only to be dragged out by an angry crowd, barely conscious, and with two broken arms and a broken leg.
From there he was taken to Hoa Lo prison, known to its American military inmates as the "Hanoi Hilton."

McCain has since described enduring months of solitary confinement and systematic torture which drove him to try to kill himself.
"I don't know how he'd react if he met me again," said Mr Duyet, flicking through old black and white photographs of himself and his American prisoners at Hua Lo.
"But I can confirm to you that we never tortured him. We never tortured any prisoners."
Mr Duyet reminisces instead about how he often summoned the future US presidential candidate to his private office for informal chats.
"We used to argue about the war - about whether it was right or wrong," he says.
"He is a very frank man - very conservative, and very loyal to his country and the American ideal.
"He had a very interesting accent and sometimes he taught me words in English and corrected my accent. I have followed his career since he left prison."
Rapprochement
So is Mr Duyet implying that that Senator McCain lied about his treatment at the Hanoi Hilton?
"He did not tell the truth," he says.
"But I can somehow sympathise with him. He lies to American voters in order to get their support for his presidential election."

But Mr Duyet's propaganda-perfect version of events is impossible to verify - and should be treated with caution in a country where the Communist authorities still keep a tight control over the media.
Relations between Vietnam and the United States have improved dramatically in recent years, following the normalisation of ties between the former enemies in 1995.
Mr McCain played a crucial role in bringing about that initial rapprochement - a fact which helps explain Mr Duyet's enthusiastic support for the McCain presidential campaign.
"I wish him success in the presidential election," he says.
"Of course the Americans started the war in Vietnam and killed so many people - but now we want to leave the past behind. "So now I consider John McCain my friend because he did much to mend relations between our two countries. And if he becomes president he will do more to improve those ties."

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | 'When John McCain was my captive'

Published: 2008/06/23 16:59:19 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Thanks for the article, JJ.

I don't think it's either an endorsement nor a condemnation.

He did state he'd vote for McCain but this is hypothetical and he refers to McCain as an acquaintence/friend but didn't mention policies. Therefore, it's just a casual story about someone who knew McCain. Nothing political about it at all.

Well Hamas endorsed Obama for a while, before they withdrew it. Now McCain gets this similarly backhanded compliment.

As for him not being tortured or even mistreated, several American POW's in the same jail back that up- they say he was treated with kid gloves, because of his propaganda value as an Admirals son.

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Originally Posted by jandajoy

"If I was American, I would vote for him."

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and then

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Originally Posted by jandajoy

"He did not tell the truth," he says. "But I can somehow sympathise with him. He lies to American voters in order to get their support for his presidential election."

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:(

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Originally Posted by jandajoy

Tran Trong Duyet - a sprightly retiree and amateur ballroom dancer - must rank as one of John McCain's more unlikely supporters.

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Nice news snippet and an interesting read but Mr. Duyet's "endorsement" will have no positive or negative influence in the race.

Outside of McCain continuously mentioning his captive days, I don't believe much if anything related to McCain's POW days will play in the campaign.

I'm not American but I'm interested in the race. Do you think the "Lying" comment could have any effect or is it just accepted that all polis lie?

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Originally Posted by sabang

they say he was treated with kid gloves, because of his propaganda value as an Admirals son.

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links to those claims ? that would expose McCain as a bit of liar, wouldn't it ? :)

John McCain's account of Viet Cong torture

EARLY in the morning I prepared for my 23rd bombing run over North Vietnam - and my first attack on the enemy capital, Hanoi, writes White House hopeful John McCain
Our target was the thermal power plant near a small lake almost at the centre of the city.

About 9000ft, as we turned inbound on the target, our warning lights flashed and the tone for enemy radar started sounding so loudly that I had to turn down the volume.
I could see huge clouds of smoke and dust erupt on the ground as surface-to-air missiles were fired at us. The closer we came to the target, the fiercer the defences.

I recognised the target sitting next to the small lake and dived in on it, just as the tone went off signalling that a missile was flying towards me.
I knew I should roll out and fly evasive manoeuvres - "jinking" in flyers' parlance - but I was just about to release my bombs and, had I started jinking, I would never have had the time, nor probably the nerve, to go back in once I had lost the missile.
So at 1000m, I released my bombs, then pulled back the stick to begin a steep climb to a safer altitude. In the instant before the plane reacted, a missile blew my right wing off.
I knew I was hit. My A-4 aircraft, travelling at about 900km/h, was spiralling violently to Earth. I reacted automatically the moment I took the hit, reached up and pulled the ejection seat handle.

I struck part of the aircraft, breaking my left arm, my right arm in three places and my right knee, and was briefly knocked unconscious.

Witnesses said my chute had barely opened before I plunged into the shallow water of Truc Bach Lake.
Wearing about 25kg of gear, I touched the bottom of the lake and kicked off with my good leg. I did not feel any pain as I broke the surface and I did not understand why I couldn't move my arms to pull the toggle on my life vest.

I sank to the bottom again.
When I broke the surface the second time, I managed to inflate my life vest by pulling the toggle with my teeth. Then I blacked out again.

When I came to the second time, I was being hauled ashore on bamboo poles. A crowd of several hundred Vietnamese gathered around me, stripping my clothes off, spitting on me and kicking and striking me.

When they had finished removing my gear and clothes, I felt a sharp pain in my right knee. I looked down and saw that my right foot was resting next to my left knee at a 90 degree angle.

I cried out: "My God, my leg!"
Someone smashed a rifle butt into my shoulder, breaking it. Someone else stuck a bayonet in my ankle and groin. A woman, who may have been a nurse, managed to dissuade the crowd from further harming me. She then applied bamboo splints to my leg and right arm.
It was with some relief that I noticed an army truck arrive on the scene. The soldiers placed me on a stretcher, loaded me into the truck and drove a few blocks to the French-built prison, Hoa Lo, which the PoWs had named the Hanoi Hilton.

As the massive steel doors clanked shut behind me, I felt a deeper dread than I have ever felt since.
The date was October 26, 1967. I was 31 and a lieutenant commander in the US Navy when I was shot down.

For two centuries, the men of my family were raised to go to war as officers in America's armed services.
I was the son and grandson of Navy officers and my father trusted that when I met with adversity, I would use the example he had set.
The soldiers took me into an empty cell, set me down on the floor still on the stretcher and placed a blanket over me. For the next few days, I drifted in and out of consciousness.
My interrogators accused me of being a war criminal and demanded military information. They knocked me around a little and I began to feel sharp pains in my fractured limbs.

I blacked out after the first few blows.
I thought if I could hold out, they would relent and take me to a hospital.
But on the fourth day, I realised my condition had become more serious. I was feverish and losing consciousness for longer periods.

I was lying in my vomit and other bodily wastes, and my knee had become grossly swollen and discoloured.
The medic, called Zorba, took my pulse.
"Are you going to take me to the hospital?" I asked.
"No," he replied. "It's too late."
Panic that death was approaching overtook me: the Vietnamese usually refused treatment to the seriously injured. Blessedly, I lapsed into unconsciousness.
I was awakened a short while later when the camp officer, a mean son of a bitch called Bug, rushed excitedly into my cell.
"Your father is a big admiral," he shouted. "Now we take you to the hospital."
God bless my father.
It was hard not to see how pleased they were to have captured an admiral's son and I knew my father's identity was directly related to my survival.
I was moved to a hospital in central Hanoi. Coming to a couple of days later, I found myself lying in a filthy room, lousy with mosquitoes and rats.

Every time it rained, mud and water would pool on the floor. No one had even bothered to wash the grime off me.
I began to recover my wits and my interrogators came to the hospital to resume their work. The beatings were of short duration because I let out a hair-raising scream when they occurred and my interrogators appeared concerned that hospital personnel might object.
Eventually I gave them my ship's name and squadron number. When asked to identify future targets, I recited the names of north Vietnamese cities that had already been bombed.
In early December, they operated on my leg, severing all the ligaments on one side of my knee, which has never fully recovered.

In late December, they decided to discharge me. I had a high fever and suffered from dysentery. I had lost about 25kg and weighed barely 45kg. I was still in a chest cast and my leg hurt like hell.
I was blindfolded, placed in the back of a truck and driven to a prison called The Plantation.

To my great relief I was placed in a cell with two other prisoners, Air Force majors "Bud" Day and Norris Overly. There has never been a doubt that Bud and Norris saved my life.
They later said their first impression of me, emaciated, bug-eyed and bright with fever, was of a man at the threshold of death.

They thought the Vietnamese expected me to die and had placed me in their care to escape the blame when I failed to recover.
Bud had been seriously injured when he ejected. After he was captured, he had attempted an escape and had almost reached an American airfield before he was recaptured.

His captors had looped rope around his shoulders, tightened it until his shoulders were almost touching, and then hung him by the arms from the rafter of the torture room, tearing his shoulders apart.

Left in this condition for hours, Bud never acceded to Vietnamese demands for military information. They had to break his already broken right arm a second time, and threaten to break the other, before Bud gave them anything at all.
Because of his injuries, Bud was unable to help with my physical care. Norris, a gentle, uncomplaining guy, cleaned me up, fed me and helped me on to the bucket that served as our toilet.
Thanks to them, I began to recover. Soon I was able to stand unaided and even manoeuvre around my cell on a pair of crutches.
In April 1968, Bud was relocated to another prison. Norris had been released under an "amnesty" and I would remain in solitary confinement for more than two years.
Though I could manage to hobble around on my crutches, I was in poor shape. I couldn't pick up or carry anything.

The dysentery caused me considerable discomfort: food and water would pass immediately through me, and sharp pains in my stomach made sleeping difficult.
It's an awful thing, solitary. It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment.

Having no one else to seek counsel from, you begin to doubt your judgment and courage.
The first few weeks are the hardest. The onset of despair is immediate, and it is a formidable foe. I reconstructed from memory books and movies I had enjoyed.
I tried to compose books and plays of my own, acting out sequences in the solitude of my cell.

I had to carefully guard against my fantasies becoming so consuming that they took me permanently to a place in my mind from which I might never return.
My cell was directly across the courtyard from the interrogation room. It had a wooden board for a bed and a naked light bulb dangling on a cord in the ceiling. The light was on 24 hours a day.
Adding to our discomfort was the building's tin roof, which must have increased the summer heat by five or more degrees.
In mid-June 1968, the camp commander, over an inviting spread of biscuits and cigarettes, asked me if I would like to go home.
I wanted to say yes: I was tired and sick and I was afraid.
But the Code of Conduct was explicit: "American prisoners cannot accept parole or amnesty or special favours."
I said I would think about it. I knew how my release would affect my father and my fellow prisoners, and I discovered later what the Vietnamese hoped to gain.
On July 4, my father had become Commander in Chief, Pacific. The Vietnamese intended to hail his arrival with a propaganda spectacle, releasing his son as a gesture of "goodwill".
For almost two months, nothing happened. Then the punishment sessions began. I was hauled into an empty room and kept there for four days. At intervals, the guards returned to administer beatings.
One guard held me while the others pounded away.
They cracked several of my ribs and broke a couple of teeth. Weakened by beatings and dysentery, with my right leg again almost useless, I found it impossible to stand.
On the third night I lay in my blood and waste, so tired and hurt that I could not move. Three guards lifted me to my feet and gave me the worst beating yet. They left me lying on the floor moaning from the stabbing pain in my re-fractured arm.

Despairing of any relief from pain and further torture, I tried to take my life. After several unsuccessful attempts, I managed to stand. Up-ending the waste bucket, I stepped on it, bracing myself against the wall with my good arm.

I looped my shirt through the shutters. As I looped it around my neck, a guard saw the shirt through the window, pulled me off the bucket and beat me.
Later, I made a second, feebler attempt at suicide. On the fourth day, I gave up. I signed a confession that "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pilot".

The guards ordered me to record my confession on tape. I refused, and was beaten until I consented.
Those were the worst two weeks of my life. I shook, as if my disgrace was a fever and no one would ever look on me again except in pity or contempt.
The Vietnamese never seemed to mind hurting us, but they usually took care not to put our lives in danger.

We strongly believed that some PoWs were tortured to death and most were seriously mistreated.
One man, Dick Stratton, had huge infected scars on his arms from rope torture. His thumbnails had been torn off and he had been burned with cigarettes.
However, the Vietnamese prized us as bargaining chips in peace negotiations and they usually did not intend to kill us when they used torture to force our co-operation.
By the end of 1969, routine beatings had almost stopped. We occasionally received extra rations. Our circumstances would never be as dire as they had been in those early years.

I was released and flown home at the end of the war, in March 1973. I had been incarcerated for 5 1/2 years.
We were told to have faith in God, country and one another. Most of us did. But the last of these - faith in one another - was our final defence, the ramparts our enemy could not cross. This was the faith I had embraced at the Naval Academy.

It was my father's and grandfather's faith. In prison, a filthy, crippled, broken man, all I had left of my dignity was the faith of my fathers. It was enough.
- Adapted and extracted from Faith of My Fathers, by John McCain

John McCain's account of Viet Cong torture | Herald Sun

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Originally Posted by jandajoy

I'm not American but I'm interested in the race. Do you think the "Lying" comment could have any effect or is it just accepted that all polis lie?

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I'm taking a hunch that it is not and won't be factor. (lie comment.)

It cannot be proven.

As for McCain, he changed position on many issues, and even forgotten what he said and what his position is/was, several times already.

If he does win, it could be buffoonery again for the USA. I am serious in this opinion.

Top Cop Says McCain Was Never Tortured
Former Vietnam vet with top secret clearance - Republican frontrunner is "a lying skunk"

A former Vietnam veteran with top secret clearance says he has personally spoken to numerous POW's who dispute John McCain's claim that he refused to provide information after he was captured and tortured in Hanoi, saying that in fact McCain's code-name was "Songbird" because of his willingness to tell all to avoid torture.
Jack McLamb served nine years in secret operations in Cambodia and other nations before going on to become one of the most highly decorated police officer's in Phoenix history, winning police officer of the year twice before taking a role as a hostage negotiator for the FBI.
"I know a lot of Vietnam veterans and a few POW's and all the POW's that I've talked to over the years say that John McCain is a lying skunk," McLamb told the Alex Jones Show.

Top Cop Says McCain Was Never Tortured

Thats just one, of many. :)

What is indisputable- because it is in writing, is that he did sign a document denouncing the US 'war of aggression' against Vietnam.
Also indisputable is that, before being shot down in VN, he had previously crashed 3 (or is it 4 :rolleyes: ) planes.

A worthy successor to dubya. SONGBIRD :rofl:

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Originally Posted by sabang

Top Cop Says McCain Was Never Tortured
Former Vietnam vet with top secret clearance - Republican frontrunner is "a lying skunk"

A former Vietnam veteran with top secret clearance says he has personally spoken to numerous POW's who dispute John McCain's claim that he refused to provide information after he was captured and tortured in Hanoi, saying that in fact McCain's code-name was "Songbird" because of his willingness to tell all to avoid torture.
Jack McLamb served nine years in secret operations in Cambodia and other nations before going on to become one of the most highly decorated police officer's in Phoenix history, winning police officer of the year twice before taking a role as a hostage negotiator for the FBI.
"I know a lot of Vietnam veterans and a few POW's and all the POW's that I've talked to over the years say that John McCain is a lying skunk," McLamb told the Alex Jones Show.

Top Cop Says McCain Was Never Tortured

Thats just one, of many. :)

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Thanks, Sab.

This reminds me of that swiftboating. Maybe some of this will stick with some people. Hard to say. It's an election year. I expect to see more and more of these things.

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Originally Posted by jandajoy

Do you think the "Lying" comment could have any effect or is it just accepted that all polis lie?

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McCain's POW experiences have been debated over several years time and time by both his supporters and critics. It always boils down to which "version" one wants to believe. With little or no solid written evidence, in the end it's McCain's word against others. In this case Mr. Duyet's assertion "He did not tell the truth".

If you have plenty of time, here are 628,000 opinions on McCain's conduct as a guest in the Hanoi Hilton. Enjoy.;)

mccain pow experience - Google Search

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Originally Posted by Milkman

buffoonery

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A very good word.

Jack McLamb, ahhh a great Alex Jones supporter? Sorry another conspiracy nutter that has no credibility. :bunny3:

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Originally Posted by Norton

If you have plenty of time, here are 628,000 opinions on McCain's conduct as a guest in the Hanoi Hilton. Enjoy.

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Thanks mate. My interest is waining ;)

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Originally Posted by britmaveric

Jack McLamb

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Vietnam Vet with top security clearance- typical Conspiracy theorist. :confused:
Frankly, it's Mccains word against many on this one.
If he was running as a Democrat, you would never hear the end of it.

Well frankly - only he and the torturers will ever know. One thing is certain he came back pretty fked up physically. (perm limp for starters)

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Originally Posted by sabang

Quote:

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Originally Posted by britmaveric

Jack McLamb

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Vietnam Vet with top security clearance- typical Conspiracy theorist. :confused:
Frankly, it's Mccains word against many on this one.
If he was running as a Democrat, you would never hear the end of it.

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I'm not even sure one can verify McLambs' credentials from what I googled - he's part of an extremist militia/white supremacy group. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by britmaveric

Well frankly - only he and the torturers will ever know. One thing is certain he came back pretty fked up physically. (perm limp for starters)

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It's a hoax, fabricated to help him win the White House. It'll disappear in Jan. :rolleyes:

^^ If so, all the more interesting, because he would not then vote Democrat.

The article reads on-

"He never was tortured - they were there in the camp with him and then when he came in....he immediately started spilling his guts about everything because he didn't want to get tortured," said McLamb, contradicting the official story that McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth.

"The Vietnamese Communists called him the Songbird, that's his code name, Songbird McCain, because he just came into the camp singing and telling them everything they wanted to know," said McLamb.

McLamb said the POW's told him that McCain had sustained two broken arms and a leg injury from not pulling his arms in when he bailed out of his A-4 Skyhawk that was shot down over the Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.

The POW's said that McCain made 32 propaganda videos for the communist North Vietnamese in which he denounced America for what they were doing in Vietnam.

"They have these sealed now, our government has these sealed, we can't get to it, they have it classified," said McLamb, adding that in truth "the POW's hate John McCain."

It is commonly accepted that McCain was treated better than other POW's and afforded medical care immediately after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.

Several Vietnam veterans groups do solely exist to expose McCain's abandonment of veteran's interests as well as his lies about being tortured, including Vietnam Veterans Against John McCain and U.S. Veteran Dispatch.

Doubts over McCain's alleged war hero status and his support to curtail efforts to look for missing POW's contributed to torpedoing his presidential campaign in 2000 and those same questions will undoubtedly surface again should the Senator win the Republican nomination."


Really, when you look at what the Republican right made of the Swiftboating affair with John Kerry- who actually saw armed combat, and won several bravery in action medals- it makes me wonder why the dem's are holding back on this one. Different breed of politics, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Norton

Outside of McCain continuously mentioning his captive days, I don't believe much if anything related to McCain's POW days will play in the campaign.

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I hear it a lot, but not from him. Seems everyone else wants to talk about it. He doesn't.

Unfortunately Kerry fabricated his combat experience that was the issue. :bunny3: He brought a typewriter with him in the field to start typing his own memoirs. ;)

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Originally Posted by Texpat

Seems everyone else wants to talk about it. He doesn't.

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Isn't that what aides and assistants are for. He talks and it's bragging. They talk and it can be covered if false.

Unable to verify, so what to believe? If he sang, he only did it when he first got in and in his condition who knows; how could he get info if he's stuck in a cell?
I wonder if McCain's ex-prison guard knows Jane Fonda?

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Originally Posted by Texpat

Seems everyone else wants to talk about it. He doesn't.

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Never a peep from the old boy to use it to political advantage.:rolleyes:


"Whether he's deflecting criticism over his health-care plan or mocking a tribute to the Woodstock music festival, Senator John McCain has a trump card: the Hanoi Hilton."

"When Elizabeth Edwards, wife of former Senator John Edwards, rebuked McCain's medical-care proposal and noted that he'd always enjoyed government health benefits, McCain responded that he knows what it's like to get inadequate care -- ``from another government.''

"while knocking a Hillary Clinton plan to help fund a museum celebrating Woodstock, McCain said he missed the 1969 festival because he was ``tied up at the time.''

"At a candidates' forum, he dismissed accusations that he was a carpetbagger with a well-timed ad lib: ``The place I lived the longest in my life was Hanoi.''

" Under fire as a senator for questionable dealings with an Arizona friend and supporter during the savings-and-loan scandal, McCain fumed: ``Even the Vietnamese didn't question my ethics.''

"in a response to questions from reporters about accusations from Democrats that he's changed his positions on Cuba over the years. ``My record is unchanged and consistent for 24 years,'' McCain said. ``A Cuban officer and enlisted men came to Hanoi and tortured my friends -- killed one of them. My position on Cuba has been exactly the same.''

"This time around, McCain and his strategists aren't holding back either. They've created posters and aired television advertisements showing him as prisoner, lying on his back, holding a cigarette."

Bloomberg.com: News

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Originally Posted by Texpat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by britmaveric

Well frankly - only he and the torturers will ever know. One thing is certain he came back pretty fked up physically. (perm limp for starters)

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It's a hoax, fabricated to help him win the White House. It'll disappear in Jan. :rolleyes:

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The limp and gimpy arm are no hoax. He broke his right arm in 3 places, broke his left arm, and leg. All done when he bailed out of his plane!

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Originally Posted by Norton

The limp and gimpy arm are no hoax. He broke his right arm in 3 places, broke his left arm, and leg. All done when he bailed out of his plane!

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In all honesty I have not looked much into McCain's time at the Hanoi Hilton. IMHO the fact that he was there for as long as he was is enough in and of itself.

But how do we know all these broken bones occured when he bailed out? - (maybe these breaks being the result of the jump is well documented but like I said I have not delved much into this topic) With injuries this extensive even McCain himself would be a poor judge of how and when they occured (if they all happened over a relative short period of time). And even if they did all come about as a result of the jump I doubt things were all wine and roses while he was being held captive. If someone wants to torture another person and minimize the chances of leaving proof of the torture newly broken bones would supply a ready made supply of pressure points that could easily be manipulated to give plenty of agony to the captive.

And from what I have seen/ read of the vetrans against McCain web pages some of those lads are so far right that Limbauch would be considered a liberal. One man of the guys (I think from the Veterans Against McCain site) threw a wine glass at the prime minister of Vietnam a few years ago. As I recall many of the same guys are behind the McCain sites are were behind the Kerry sites. These blokes seem to have a hard-on for McCain because McCain has been willing to put the Vietnam War behind hima and work towards normalizing relationships with communist countries like Vietnam and China.

That being said I don't really think his time there or to what extent he was (or was not) tortured really has much of an impact on if I will vote for the man come November or not.

Surely it's the lying and his credibility that count. If he has lied about his experiences (and I've no doubt they were terrible) and tried to get a political edge from them it's an absolute insult to those that were there.
IMHO if that's what he's done it's got to be some of the worst type of lying, fabrication or evasion of truth.

A few years ago I was in a pub in the UK and a guy started banging on about his time in Northern Ireland. The table went quiet and we let him blather on. He dug a hole for himself and was later admitted to hospital. He'd lied through his teeth. The guys at the table had been there and lost mates there too.

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Originally Posted by Bugs

In all honesty I have not looked much into McCain's time at the Hanoi Hilton. IMHO the fact that he was there for as long as he was is enough in and of itself.

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No question he was there a long time and I in no way am suggesting he didn't suffer as a result. I am also sure, he didn't get exactly 4 star medical treatment for the injuries he received in the crash and as a result he sustained further complications. As I stated in an earlier post, no one is sure what treatment he received as a POW.

As you appropriately point out, being an ex POW does not make anyone more or less qualified to hold the office of the President. Using it as a campaign tool is simply playing to the sympathetic and "neo patriot" elements within the electorate. I felt the same way when Kerry did it.