Kosovo independence

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The Case for Independence

In 1998 and 1999, Serbia waged a barbaric campaign of ethnic cleansing against ethnic Albanians that left more than 10,000 people dead. It was only the U.S.-British-led NATO intervention that prevented thousands more from being slaughtered by Slobodan Milosevic's dictatorship, and 16,000 Allied troops remain in the province today.

More than 90 percent of Kosovo's 2.1 million residents are ethnic Albanians; Serbs make up a tiny minority. There is no realistic alternative to independence for the province, a political reality that both Serbia and Russia must accept. As former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher warned in a speech in 1999, "[I]t would be both cruel and stupid to expect the Albanian Kosovans now to return to live under any form of Serbian rule."

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The current violence in Belgrade seems to underscore the Thatcher comment.
What's wrong with these people?
Is it America's fault again?:rolleyes:
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Belgrade's US Embassy Set on Fire

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The U.S. embassy in Belgrade burns after masked attackers broke into the building and set an office on fire at the end of a massive protest against Western-backed Kosovo independence, in the Serbian capital, Thursday, Feb. 21, 2008. More than 150,000 Serbs gathered at the rally vowing to retake the territory which is viewed as Serbia's religious and national heartland. (AP Photo) (AP)

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Serbs gather in front of the National Assembly building during a rally against Kosovo's independence in Belgrade, Serbia, Thursday, Feb. 21, 2008. At least 150,000 Serbs gathered in central Belgrade on Thursday in a massive protest against Kosovo's declaration of independence, raising fears of street violence. (AP Photo/Vladimir Gogic) (Vladimir Gogic - AP)

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The Associated Press
Thursday, February 21, 2008; 5:06 PM

BELGRADE, Serbia -- Serb rioters broke into the U.S. Embassy and set fire to an office Thursday, and police clashed with protesters outside after a large demonstration against Kosovo's declaration of independence.

washingtonpost.com

the danish 2200 o clock news says there are big bemonstraitions in belgrade by the serbs they ewen have set the us embasady on fire

I just heard some reports how the Belgrade government provided free transportation for the demonstrators and Belgrade police stepped back while vandals broke into the US embassy. Dumb focks!

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I just heard some reports how the Belgrade government provided free transportation for the demonstrators and Belgrade police stepped back while vandals broke into the US embassy. Dumb focks!

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can cofirm that dk telewision say the same

STANCE ON RECOGNITION

For: Germany, Italy, France, UK, Austria, US, Turkey, Albania, Afghanistan

Against: Russia, Spain, Romania, Slovakia, Cyprus

BBC NEWS | Europe | Recognition for new Kosovo grows

This isn't as clear cut as the numbers make out. A few hundred years ago, prior to the invasion by the turks, Kosovo was the centre of Serbia.

^ Indeed, there are several ancient Serbian monasteries scattered throughout Kosovo, and the Serbs call it their 'ancient heartland'.
But demographics change, populations shift, and after the criminal Serbian ethnic cleansing of ethnic Albanians they can hardly expect this 90% Albanian region to embrace them again as part of greater Serbia. They'll have to live with it, it's their own doing anyway- but this will be a long simmering feud.

NBC News
Feb. 21, 2008


BELGRADE, Serbia - A charred body was found inside the U.S. Embassy Thursday after Serb rioters protesting Kosovo's declaration of independence set fire to offices there.

It was unknown whose body was in the burned office. "It was found at the part of the building set on fire by the protesters," embassy spokeswoman Rian Harris said. She said all embassy staffers were accounted for; Belgrade's Pink TV said the body appeared to be that of a rioter.

The State Department issued a travel alert for Americans in Serbia.

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the body appeared to be that of a rioter

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Poetic justice. Happy to see the brokered settlement and all the hard work of western nations to end the violence a decade ago has resulted in ... um ...

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

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In 1998 and 1999, Serbia waged a barbaric campaign of ethnic cleansing against ethnic Albanians that left more than 10,000 people dead.... More than 90 percent of Kosovo's 2.1 million residents are ethnic Albanians; Serbs make up a tiny minority...

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The current violence in Belgrade seems to underscore the Thatcher comment. What's wrong with these people? Is it America's fault again?:rolleyes:

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Perhaps the Christian Serbs are a tiny minority in Kosovo because their churches have been burned and they've been violently forced out. If you actually studied the conflict in Kosovo, you would realize that the "genocide" estimates have shrunk from "200,000" disappeared (from Clinton's press secretary) down to 10,000 (your quote) and finally around 2-3,000 bodies from both sides of a 10-year civil war. Before the US bombing campaign, several hundred thousand Albanian Kosovars actually fled into Serbia to avoid the carnage. Clinton's claim of a genocide in Kosovo was as big of a hoax as Bush's WMD in Iraq. As a result, we now have a new Muslim narco-state in the Balkans. Nice? I'd also be pissed off if I were a Serb. Do some serious reading on this Kosovo 'genocide' and then see if you're still willing to quote the same misinformation.

Genocide in Kosovo?

The population of Kosovo is composed of 90% albanian migrants. There is no reason to daclare Kosovo independancy coz it belong to Serbia for ages.

Kosovars (albanese) are criminals, rapers, proxenetes, mafiosis, drug traffikers whot have illegaly obtained an independant state now. Another great GWB's achievemento who doesn't know nor understand nothing about history.

Ethnic cleansing in Kosovo:
The roots of Kosovo fascism
Kosovo During World War II, 1941-1945 - Genocide in Kosovo: The Skenderbeg SS Division | Carl Savich | Columns | Serbianna.com
Kosovo and the Holocaust: Falsifying History | Carl Savich | Columns | Serbianna.com

And I can find more links about other nazi kosovar divisions, coz it was not the only one.

Such nice people: The Drug Trade Is Entrenched in NATO Politics

They really deserve an independant state. :rolleyes:

Serbs are also highly regarded in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

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Originally Posted by mackayae

Serbs are also highly regarded in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

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Again, a bit of historical background might alter your impression that the Serbs are the bad boys of the Balkans. In WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state that embarked on a genocide that killed approximately 500,000 Serbs. You might be able to understand Serbian resentment after this bit of history:

Ustaše - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Wallalai

Such nice people: The Drug Trade Is Entrenched in NATO Politics

They really deserve an independent state. :rolleyes:

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Excellent article. One side-effect of the recent US interventions in Afghanistan and Kosovo is that they have become major players in the world heroin trade, as growers and distributors respectively. Another issue that should disturb people in the West are the ties between Al Qaeda and the Kosovo Liberation Army.

CFP: Bush Adminstration Unites with Al Qaeda in Kosovo

We have 100000 kosovars "refugees" in Switzerland and the heroines's price has never been so cheap. Any kind of drug is easily available. The crime rate has rised quicklier than ever, many gangrapes from people as young as 13, and recently a 23 years swiss guy beated to death by 3 ex-yugoslavians (21 to 23) croatians though, not only thais can do it. Many people are afraid to go out at night now and it's mostly due to these people.

These people are a threat to the european stability. And the nations who has approved the kosovo independance should be ashamed.

Hmmm... guess there's two sides to this story... but the Serbs' reputation hasn't recovered since Srebenicia. Perhaps the US also needs at least one example of helping a Muslim state to exist, to counter criticism of its support of Israel.

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Originally Posted by Hootad Binky

Hmmm... guess there's two sides to this story... but the Serbs' reputation hasn't recovered since Srebenicia. Perhaps the US also needs at least one example of helping a Muslim state to exist, to counter criticism of its support of Israel.

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Initially I thought the same thing, that the war was a publicity stunt. But then the USA built Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, with a 7-mile perimeter, it's largest military base built since WWII. This is simply a continuation of the turf war with Russia that was once called the Cold War. You certainly didn't hear Israel complain about the USA in Kosovo, since these Muslims weren't in their backyard.

To attribute the legitimacy or illegitimacy of an Independence struggle solely to a peoples ethnicity, religion or criminal element seems to me a non sequitur. I don't deny there were atrocities carried out against Serbs as well, neither that Kosovars (and Albanians and Romanians) are known for being well represented in criminal activities in other countries.

Some bullet points from Wiki:-

Almost two years later, on September 26, 1991, the parliament organized an unofficial referendum which was observed by international organizations but was not recognized internationally. With an 87% turnout, 99% voted for Kosovo to be independent..

During the conflict roughly a million ethnic Albanians fled or were forcefully driven from Kosovo, several thousand were killed (the numbers and the ethnic distribution of the casualties are uncertain and highly disputed). An estimated 10,000-12,000 ethnic Albanians and 3,000 Serbs are believed to have been killed during the conflict, and some 3,000 people are still missing.
Some of the worst massacres against civilian Albanians occurred after NATO started the bombing of Yugoslavia

Around 120,000-150,000 Serbs remain in Kosovo, but are subject to ongoing harassment and discrimination.

The economy is hindered by Kosovo's still-unresolved international status, which has made it difficult to attract investment and loans. The province's economic weakness has produced a thriving black economy in which smuggled petrol, cigarettes and cement are major commodities. The prevalence of official corruption and the pervasive influence of organised crime gangs has caused serious concern internationally. The United Nations has made the fight against corruption and organised crime a high priority, pledging a "zero tolerance" approach.

Kosovo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

In WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state that embarked on a genocide that killed approximately 500,000 Serbs. You might be able to understand Serbian resentment after this bit of history:

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And that should give a right to the Serbs for ethnic cleansing like they did in the 90s ?

Almost as bad the Israelis who keep using the Shoa as a pretense to "expand" their territory and kill more Palestinians,

The only reason for Kosovo to be independant is to stop the Serbs from doing it again, it's a security measure, even though Romanians and Albanians are scums

The Croatian Stasi were a bad bunch. But, out of the ashes of Yugoslavia, it is Croatia and Slovenia which have emerged as functioning states thus far.

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The Role of Muslim SS divisions in Yugoslavia's Holocaust

Nice people in this balkanic region.

And why USA want an independant Kosovo.

A Discreet Deal in the Pipeline

Without any oil interest USA would even not knowing that people live there.

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

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Originally Posted by mackayae

Serbs are also highly regarded in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

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Again, a bit of historical background might alter your impression that the Serbs are the bad boys of the Balkans. In WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state that embarked on a genocide that killed approximately 500,000 Serbs. You might be able to understand Serbian resentment after this bit of history:

Ustaše - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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You are jumping to conclusions when you state that is my impression. I have no impressions on any of the groups involved. Thank you for your help anyway. If you reread the original statement you will notice it is about Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Slovenians, not my impression. I do not presume to judge any of the groups. My only hope is the violence will end.

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Originally Posted by mackayae

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

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Originally Posted by mackayae

Serbs are also highly regarded in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.

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Again, a bit of historical background might alter your impression that the Serbs are the bad boys of the Balkans. In WWII, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state that embarked on a genocide that killed approximately 500,000 Serbs. You might be able to understand Serbian resentment after this bit of history:

Ustaše - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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You are jumping to conclusions when you state that is my impression. I have no impressions on any of the groups involved. Thank you for your help anyway. If you reread the original statement you will notice it is about Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Slovenians, not my impression. I do not presume to judge any of the groups. My only hope is the violence will end.

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Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I believe that the Balkans is similar to the Middle East, a never-ending tapestry of ethnic conflict. The Serbs are not saints here by any means. My only complaint is that the West has bombed and then vilified the Serbs while glorifying the Albanians, who have behaved at least as badly and probably worse. This has all been done for self-serving political purposes such a military bases and oil pipelines. I hope for peace there, too.

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Originally Posted by Butterfly

even though Romanians and Albanians are scums

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Getting out the broad brush and painting again are we Butterhole?

At the risk of overstating my displeasure with Europe's new Muslim narco-state, here's some fairly damning evidence against Kosovo's first Prime Minister Hashim Thaci. He's apparently got a long history as a drug trafficking warlord. Certainly no George Washington this guy.

Kosovo: The US and the EU support a Political Process linked to Organized Crime

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

Do some serious reading on this Kosovo 'genocide' and then see if you're still willing to quote the same misinformation.

Genocide in Kosovo?

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Yes there seems to be a effort out there to whitewash Serbian atrocities

I figured the USA would catch the blame sooner than later:)

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KOSOVSKA MITROVICA, Kosovo - Serbia's hard-line leaders on Saturday called the U.S. "the main culprit" in the violence that has broken out since Kosovo declared independence.

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

Do some serious reading on this Kosovo 'genocide' and then see if you're still willing to quote the same misinformation.
Genocide in Kosovo?

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Yes there seems to be a effort out there to whitewash Serbian atrocities

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Come on man, is that the best you can do? A 'refutation' of Project Censored that cites the recovery of 45 and 23 bodies in 'mass' graves? This is a far cry from the 200,000 disappeared Kosovars that Clinton's press secretary Jamie Rubin suggested. Of course, the author of your link does what every other pro-Albanian writer does when fact-challenged on this topic: he cites the massacre of Srebrenica, which was years earlier in a different war (Bosnia), not Kosovo. As someone who seems fairly hawkish about the global 'war on terror', doesn't it bother you that Muslim narco-traffickers with ties to Bin Laden now have their own country in Europe? Does the term 'blowback' mean anything to you?

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

Muslim narco-traffickers with ties to Bin Laden now have their own country in Europe?

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I wasn't aware of this. Care to illuminate us further with something other than anecdotes?

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Originally Posted by Mr Earl

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Originally Posted by floorpotato

Muslim narco-traffickers with ties to Bin Laden now have their own country in Europe?

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I wasn't aware of this. Care to illuminate us further with something other than anecdotes?

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Both Wallalai and I have left numerous links in this thread. Hardly anecdotes.

Regarding Al Qaeda in Kosovo, the Wall Street Journal Europe published a story in 2001 called 'Al Qaeda's Balkan Links', I believe that the below link provides the original text:

The Centre for Peace in the Balkans

Perhaps the most detailed and damning article on the drug trade involves the current Kosovo Prime Minister:

Kosovo: The US and the EU support a Political Process linked to Organized Crime

It would be interesting to read your opinion on the specifics of these two articles.

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Originally Posted by sabang

To attribute the legitimacy or illegitimacy of an Independence struggle solely to a peoples ethnicity, religion or criminal element seems to me a non sequitur.

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The countries opposing Kosovo's claim of independence all have good reason to do so. Each are states which have significant separatist factions. Putin's statement that the UN or countries supporting Kosovo's independence declaration are making a big mistake IMO has some validity. There are very few nations that have a completely homogeneous or single ethnic population. In many of these nations there are groups/regions who could claim they have been disenfranchised or subjected to any number of atrocities committed by the "ruling" ethnic group in their nations government. History is rife with just such conditions which resulted in bloody civil wars. The current government of Kosovo finding itself in the unique position of being occupied and under the protection of the UN has taken this golden opportunity to declare its independence with little fear of military reprisal from the Serbian military. Whilst there is little question Kosovo has suffered under Serbian governance, if regions of any other country are emboldened by the recognition of the world community to Kosovo's declaration there will be many who will make the same move. A few examples of the many regions that can make claims of disenfranchisement and government repression are the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey and those provinces just down the road in southern Thailand. What then will be the response of the world community and the governing nation? It doesn't take a crystal ball to forecast the global geopolitical chaos that will ensue!

^ Good post, valid points. I would only argue in return that the Serbs- by setting off this ethnic cleansing in the first place, which was then reciprocated (albeit to a lesser degree) by Kosovars, Croats, Bosnian Muslims and so on- have brought this upon themselves. Sure, the Kosovar separists seized an opportunity presented them in the first place by Serbian brutality- wouldn't you?

Commonsensically, I can see no way Kosovo could possibly be reintegrated with Serbia. There would be a better chance of integrating them with Albania

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Originally Posted by sabang

Sure, the Kosovar separists seized an opportunity presented them in the first place by Serbian brutality- wouldn't you?

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I sure would and rightly so. As I said Kosovo's reason for the declaration are entirely valid given what they have been subjected to from the Serbs. Not withstanding the responsibility of the world community to stand strong against any government that is committing atrocious human rights violations, the point of my post above is the risk inherent in military confrontation between countries for and against.

Any ethnic group that is oppressed deserves its own country. What I object to is the selectivity with which the USA embraced the Kosovar Albanians and the genocide hoax which was used to justify its policy. This is the equivalent of the USA bombing Thailand to free Pattani. Kosovo deserves to be exposed for militant Islamist activities and for the large amounts of heroin and human trafficking that passes through its borders. Morally, there is nothing special about Kosovo's case for independence. Their current leadership is as corrupt as Milosevic ever was and their heroin is flooding into Western cities.