Bar back\Bartending - part-time, courses, aprenticeship for foreign student?

Hello everyone!

I've been advised to ask my question here at ajarn forum (if it is prohibited to refer to other web sites - sorry, I will cut this part).

Well, I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management. About two month ago I realized my passion for the bartending, cocktail mixology and bar operations. I tried to find a part-time in the first place but then, everyone knows (except for me, of course, cause I didn't researched on this thing when came to Thailand ten month ago) that it requires work permit, which is impossible to get with Student Visa. I also found two bartending courses (one in Bangkok and another at Phuket), however the prices are too expensive, for me, lol.

So, at the previous forum some people told me that here are some bar owners and my question for them - I am really dynamic, enthusiastic, hard-working and fast-learning person. My main goal for now is to get an experience and I don't think about the money (okay, I am not naive, it is always good to raise some cash but for now it is not what I am aiming for). I would be really happy to get a chance to work in a fine bar as a bar back, bar waiter or, if you don't seeking for now for something outstanding - even bartending with very low pay or even without it at all. I already have some experience in producing the drinks and worked as a bartender and waiter for a bit of time, have product and equipment knowledge. I am easily engaging with people, confident in myself and can work under pressure. If you are a good bartender I will be happy to become, hmm, I am calling it - your bar apprentice and learn while working. I see myself in this industry and don't want to lose time, want to challenge myself, want to kick start my career in bartending.

Nonetheless, my questions to everyone else:
Do you know any bar\restaurant, etc. with foreign manager or bartender? I found like three to four places and planning to visit them to chat with the managers.
What can you advise me to do?

Thank you very much for you attention, I am open for any critic\reccomendation and discussion!

Welcome to the Buffalo Board, Ivan...Wish you luck finding a place...Can't you do that in the Ukraine?...Tell us a bit about home...

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Originally Posted by BaitongBoy

Welcome to the Buffalo Board, Ivan...Wish you luck finding a place...Can't you do that in the Ukraine?...Tell us a bit about home...

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I can do it at home but I in Ukraine we don't have proper Hospitality management degrees. I want to build my career in Hospitality and Bartending is just a sector of this industry. I am pretty sure that I will work as a bartender and mixologist but you never know. I want to have a good International paper, which will give me an opportunity to work at least in Asia, however we don't have such things in Ukraine.

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mixologist

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snigger


What?

You a course to show you how to open a bottle and pour liquid into a glass!!!

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

What can you advise me to do?

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Most all the large international 5 star hotels have foreign F&B managers. Suggest you ask around those to find situation you are looking for.

To work as a bar back/apprentice in a proper bar you will need appropriate visa and work permit.

Appears your English skills are good so is a plus. Also, if you like most ukrainians, speak Russian, a plus. In your position, I would be looking at high end hotels with significant amount of Russian customers. Google is your friend. I am no help regarding 5 star hotels catering to Russians.

Good luck and welcome to Teak Door.

If you wanted a job as a cabinet maker first you have to know which is the hammer and which is the chisel and which gets hit with what.

So even for basic bar tending you need to know your drinks and cocktails, and how to make them. If not you are no use to anyone even for work experience.

Have you bought any books on cocktails? Do you know a black Russian from a Singapore sling. What is the difference between Haig and Glenlivet? The difference between Gilbeys and Gordons ?

As has been said you need foreign managed hotels and ones with cocktail bars not just bars. To take advantage of your language skills, you also need to target hi-end places where the customers actually sit at the bar? So hi-end roof garden bars. Also large international hotels so you can move to different places.

Start at the Oriental and work down. Get an appointment with the F&B managers and ask for their advice before asking for a job. Also ask them for the names of other F&B managers in town etc. This should all be done in person not via the internet. This shows commitment and effort. Research each place and find out the name of the F&B manager then walk in at a quiet time and ask to speak to that person. If any minion you talk to is evasive and asks to many questions before pointing you towards the F&B person. Tell them you wish to ask him about his experience and work history, something that doesn't indicate that you want a job.

Aim to be the hotel manager one day. So ask each person you talk to about their training and experience. Everyone likes to talk about themselves so...

If you are tall and handsome research the high end nightclubs like , say, the odd ones on Soi 11 and do the same thing. Management will be Thai so maybe not so user friendly but...


Last resort:) move to Ibiza where they drink lots of cocktails?

Good luck

Ummm, isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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Originally Posted by VocalNeal

So even for basic bar tending you need to know your drinks and cocktails, and how to make them. If not you are no use to anyone even for work experience.

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Making the drinks is the easy part...Any monkey can do that...Everybody has a book to follow...Like cooking...It will take a person about 2 years to learn the trade which is mainly communicating with your patrons while they change before your eyes in the mist of alcohol...

Depends on the speed needed to serve in the place you work...Generally, the high-end places aren't five deep around the bar with drunks clamouring for Pink Ladies...

Don't know how to make a drink?...Look it up and build it if you have the time...Better yet, ask the patron how they like it...They will make the best one they ever had right in front of your eyes....

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Originally Posted by celtic

isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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It is indeed. Just checked. :)

!I beg to differ:-

"Category C. You are allowed to do the following:
Exporting, all wholesale trades not in A & B. retiling machinery, equipment & tools, selling food, beverages that promote tourism. Industrial & handicraft Business: manufacturing animal feeds, vegetable oil extraction, textile manufacturing, dyeing, fabric printing, glass ware manufacturing, making plates and bowls, stationary & printing paper, rock salt mining, mining.
In the category, you have to apply for a work permit in order to do business legally in Thailand."

http://www.thaiworkpermit.com/prohib...-thailand.html

Wow, so many interesting info, thanks to everyone who answered! Didn't have time to check the forum for the last three days and didn't expect that there will be more than 2-3 answers.

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Have you bought any books on cocktails? Do you know a black Russian from a Singapore sling. What is the difference between Haig and Glenlivet? The difference between Gilbeys and Gordons ?

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Of course I educate myself. Read a couple of bar tending basic books. For now keep the "Cocktail Lab" near the bed but, honestly, this one is for those who is quite advanced in mixology and I just have fun reading but don't understand much. Found some interesting bartenders on YouTube as well. Researching for the classic cocktails, go through the history of bartending and etc. I am quite serious, lol, so of course I am preparing myself in a theory, doing my own Bartending 101 if you want. Btw, started to practice on flaring - not exactly what I want to do in my career but, well, it is also related to bar tending and it is something what I can already practice with.

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As has been said you need foreign managed hotels and ones with cocktail bars not just bars. To take advantage of your language skills, you also need to target hi-end places where the customers actually sit at the bar? So hi-end roof garden bars. Also large international hotels so you can move to different places.

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I spent hours searching internet for some opportunities, although didn't pay too much attention to hotels and clubs sector. Will try to make a list of some hotels with foreign F&B managers and also will put on the list some clubs.

At this weekend I am planning to hit the Thonglor area - found there 4-6 promising places, two with foreign owners. Hope that I will have a chance to speak with these guys.

Also there is an opportunity to work at Khao San for 800 bath per shift as bartender and as far as I know the guy doesn't ask for a work permit. But nobody has answered me yet and most probably won't :(.

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Ummm, isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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Yeah, it is. But I saw couple of farangs behind the bar, and not in Pataya or Phuket, where no rules but in Bangkok.

I really don't understand the Thailand work for foreigners regulations. If I am a student and I am working somewhere for the learning purposes and don't get paid at all - is it still considered to be illegal?

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snigger


What?

You a course to show you how to open a bottle and pour liquid into a glass!!!

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Go type "mixologist" in google and than laugh, okay?))

"mixologist "(snigger) just a pretentious word for a bartender, much like calling a garbage collector a "refuse recycling technologist" or calling the part timer who presses the buttons on the machine at starbucks a "barista" or calling a whore a "sexual services provider"

you pour drinks, take the money and give change. why not just do it well and be proud of what you do rather than invite derision and try to make out it is something else by giving it a stupid pretentious name.



http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/04/tr...or-bartenders/

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Type "mixologist" into your laptop and you'll see that red squiggly snake beneath it, suggesting that the word doesn't even officially exist.

My initial attempt to get to the bottom of the mixologist/bartender question only confuses things further.

At The Landmark Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong's annual Masters of Mixology event in 2014, I find myself talking to three talented international bartenders.

Despite the name of the event they were a part of, each dismissed the term mixologist like it's stale beer.............................

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Also there is an opportunity to work at Khao San for 800 bath per shift as bartender and as far as I know the guy doesn't ask for a work permit.

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That's not how work permits work. You don't obtain some generic work permit and show up at a job and flash it.
Work permits are job specific and your employer must assist you in applying for one. He is not doiung you any favours by'not asking for one'. He can't be bothered to provide you with all the necessary paperwork even if you were allowed to obtain one for a joba s a bartender and if the authorities were to stop by and ask for your non-existant work permit it would be you in trouble.

To work without a WP is illegal

how much does a work permit cost these days and how long does it take to process one.

i would have thought the only way our professor of mixological techniques is going to get a work permit would be for him to be offered an employment contract in a top end hotel or nightclub at a salary legally acceptable for foreigners rather than a casual offer from someone with a kao saan road bar looking for cheap labour who would not offer support when labour and immigration officers make their inevitable visit, arrest, imprisonment, trial, fine and deportation.

make mine a treble please.

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Originally Posted by taxexile

how much does a work permit cost these days and how long does it take to process one.

i would have thought the only way our professor of mixological techniques is going to get a work permit would be for him to be offered an employment contract in a top end hotel or nightclub at a salary legally acceptable for foreigners rather than a casual offer from someone with a kao saan road bar looking for cheap labour who would not offer support when labour and immigration officers make their inevitable visit, arrest, imprisonment, trial, fine and deportation.

make mine a treble please.

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I don't really understand what have I done to you and why you are being so sarcastic :) I came here to get advice, to speak with interesting people, to get the employment offer (okay, i am not really counting on it, but you never know). The only thing I am looking for right now it's interesting experience in field which I really love in the way it would be okay in Thailand).

Not to argue with you but just to a bit change your point of view, my friend:
Bar tending and mixology are different things. Bar tending is essentialy operation of bar, while mixology is in general - mixing and creating of drinks (it is really in general).
There is much more behind the bar tending than you see. Before somebody will pour a drink to your glass there are hours of pre-shift preparation, practise, learning, product knowledge, acquaring social skills and etc. Of course, if we speak about small drunkyard in a countryside with dirty glasses and ugly hookers down the corner... lol, obviously I am not aiming for this in my life. However in fine-dining five star world, where the cocktail culture is really strong, where people demand the ritual of drinking - the bar tender is a professional. Don't forget that bar tending it is part of hospitality industry and the main focus is on catering people and to serve people is definetely not for everybody. In addition, even if we omit all little details behind pouring the drink - try to imagine the usual workflow for bartenders during the busydays, when there are dozens of people and all they want is to get their portion of alcohol and sometimes barman don't even get a second to take a small sip of water in hours.
May sound very dramatic but that's how things work. I had a really little experience on bartending and serving the people and can say for sure - it is not about "every monkey can do this", no, however it is hard and stressful and it will squize the juices out of you. But I kind of like it and want to go deeper into industry.

Talking about mixology thing - any five-star establishment which have the provision of alcoholic beverages will have to hire someone who will make for them a nice beverage menu and it is done by the person called, suddenly, mixologist. Mostly these two jobs - bar tending and mixology, can be done by one person but there are examples of really famous people who live only on doing mixology and rarely working behind the bar. Although, most of the mixology done by bartenders themselves.
Well, that's what I mean saying the world "mixology" you might probably understand it differently.

You asked about work permit but the problem is that I cannot get one with student visa. That mean that for the next three years I cannot work at all. I don't have an alternative to come back home, btw. Of course in these kind of conditions I am trying to find legal and fine variant to work and get the experience, that's why in reality of Thailand I would be glad to work without sallary!

When and if you will answer me - please ask yourself, are you doing somebody a favor or you just saying something quite rude and obnoxious?

Have you thought about working on international cruise ships, accomodation free and travel the oceans and see exotic places.
Their was a Hollywood movie staring Tom Cruise , about him mixing cocktails but I never saw the movie and cannot recall the title.

^But he lost all credibility when he stood on Oprah's sofa...

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Originally Posted by wasabi

Have you thought about working on international cruise ships, accomodation free and travel the oceans and see exotic places.
Their was a Hollywood movie staring Tom Cruise , about him mixing cocktails but I never saw the movie and cannot recall the title.

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Work on a cruise ship is on my list of "must to do" and if not as a bartender but as an any kind of manager at least. But I'll have to get a degree first.

There seems to be some confusion about the validity of term "mixology", which is indeed a real word! My 8 year old son is a mixologist after recently learning how to combine Vimto Ribena and water thus creating the ultimate child's cocktail, I witnessed this creation presonaly and made a video to submit to the Guiness Book of Records for the youngest mixologist ever, although many years ago he did mix a soiled nappy with sand but I'm unsure weather that counts

Sure, and he'd be a mixoloxist...

Tax is just jealous he can't even pour a beer...Heh...

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I don't really understand what have I done to you and why you are being so sarcastic I came here to get advice, to speak with interesting people, to get the employment offer (okay, i am not really counting on it, but you never know). The only thing I am looking for right now it's interesting experience in field which I really love in the way it would be okay in Thailand).

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....... and i wish you the best of luck and every success with your endeavours, i really do.

but you are being far too sensitive and prissy about my comments ..... do you really have what it takes to be a "mixologist", dealing with drunken customers shouting and complaining if your concoctions are a millilitre out or a couple of degrees too warm.

and mines a martini, that'll be shaken not stirred. :)

Bruises on the Grey Goose coming right up...Heh...

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am trying to find legal and fine variant to work and get the experience, that's why in reality of Thailand I would be glad to work without sallary!

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Even if you work without salary you will still need to obtain a work permit.
In essence you have to demonstrate that you are not taking a job from a local.
I think that you will find it quite difficult to find legal work in this field

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management.

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Suggest you speak with your school administrators about your plan. They would be much better to advise you on the best way to achieve your goal.

You've recieved some decent advice here but TD members are typically consumers of a "mixoligist's" product rather than expert in the field.

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Originally Posted by Norton

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management.

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Suggest you speak with your school administrators about your plan. They would be much better to advise you on the best way to achieve your goal.

You've recieved some decent advice here but TD members are typically consumers of a "mixoligist's" product rather than expert in the field.

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Of course, I've already spoke to everybody in my school - my dean, my lecturers, the students administration, my friends who are foreigners and work on student visa without WP (boom, nobody was deported or even fined). They gave me good advices and some of them are helping me a lot even now)

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

my friends who are foreigners and work on student visa without WP (boom, nobody was deported or even fined)

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do you mean that they have been asked by the authorities as some point to show their work permit at which point they said 'Sorry I don't have one' and the authorities then said 'No problem then mate, carry on'

Or do you mean that they have not yet been asked to show a work permit?

It is illegal to work, paid or otherwise without a work permit if you are a foreigner.
If caught you will spend time in the IDC and be deported at some point.

Of course there are many who work in Thailand without the proper papers - it doesn't make it OK, It simply means that they have not been caught yet.
I am aware of several who have spent time in the IDC before being deported for having no work permit.

I would have thought working behind a bar was quite a visible job. It would only take one disgruntled individual who either takes a dislike to you or believes your job should be his/hers and you will be in trouble.

Your risk to take

as the OP is fond of saying, "just google it"

these are taken from an expat forum thread

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- The German owner of a local restaurant, who has a work permit, hired two Philippine singers who did not have a work permit. Both the owner and the two singers were arrested.

- A Swedish person who was helping his wife to cook in the kitchen of their business was arrested.

- A guesthouse did not make a report within 24 hours and the owner was charged accordingly.

- A German man whose mother is Thai was arrested for serving drinks to his German friends in his mothers business.

- A Thai builder was arrested for hiring two Burmese workers who did not have work permits

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Barry Kenyon the Honorary Consul (Pattaya) for the British Embassy in a Q&A....



Chonburi is not known as the easiest place in Thailand to get a work permit and there are a lot of foreigners working here without the little blue book. Do many foreigners have problems related to this?
They do, not because they cannot get one, but because they have not applied for it in the first place. The work permit is about paying tax and capital investment in a company. The people who get in trouble are often the people who would not be able to apply for a work permit, or because they have not put sufficient capital in, or do not even know about it. Or perhaps they work in a sector where you cannot get a work permit, such as a gogo bar. It is very difficult to get a work permit to work in a gogo bar.

But generally, if your application is in order, it should be ok. A lot of people are married to a Thai and think having a work permit doesn't matter. Just because you are married to a Thai does not excuse you. The Alien Labour Act 1980 applies.


What's the typical penalty?

There is little point pleading not guilty! The penalty will be quite small in the sense that the Thai courts will fine you or 2,000 - 3,000 baht. If you can pay it, which they rarely can, because they are often on overstay, you will not be let out, but rather you will be deported. If not, you have to wait in the jail until someone comes up with the money. There is one jail in Bangkok, the Immigration Detention Centre, where they end up.

What about if you just don't have the money, or the means to raise it?

You can pay it off by spending time in the prison cell. The rate is 200 baht per day. So a 2,000 baht fine would be 10 days.



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The biggest problem is paying for the cost of the airfare to your home country and getting a flight. Then the threat of not being able to come back to Thailand. It's up to the discretion of Immigration.

If you are allowed back, you can not apply for a work permit for one year after you committed a crime with Labor Laws in Thailand.

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Okay, guys, than what you can reccomend to me?

Just wait? Move somewhere else? Do not even try?

How students can legally get the permit for work? Is it worth to go to immigration office to ask?

Will ask my uni about internships - there is a proccess of getting trainnee positions for students with help of uni.

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Just wait? Move somewhere else? Do not even try?

How students can legally get the permit for work? Is it worth to go to immigration office to ask?

Will ask my uni about internships - there is a proccess of getting trainnee positions for students with help of uni.

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A work permit is nothing to do with Immigration. They are the responsibility of the Ministry of Labor. In addition asking immigration might make them think that you are not here to study but work which could have a negative impact upon your Ed visa status
As a foreigner you need a work permit to work legally. Work permits are job specific and the application for one must be fully supported by your employer.
The employer will have to submit a fair amount of paperwork including why there is a need to hire you a foreigner instead of a local. The paperwork would aslo have to show your remuneration which again has to be of a certain level (typically higher than local wages) in order to qualify for a WP
Working as a bartender is unlikely to require skills that can only be found in non-Thais.

Even an internship as a foreigner will require similar paperwork if it is to be legal.

Bottom line the Thai authorities do not want foreigners taking jobs from Thais.

I do not say give up but I do not see a great chance of finding legal work as a bartender in Thailand as a foreigner but I could be wrong.

If you take up illegal work there are potential consequences to be paid should you be caught and you should make yourself aware of them - ignorance is not an excuse.

Finally I would be wary of seeking the 'expert opinion' of the university. They are not experts on labor law as it impacts foreigners.

Consult a lawyer or take a look yourself at the ministry of labor website

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Will ask my uni about internships - there is a proccess of getting trainnee positions for students with help of uni.

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Yes these would be for Thai students I do not know how the government regulations would impact a foreigner seeking an internship but as volunteers require a work permit to be legal in Thailand I feel certain that they would not be without some similar paperwork.
bottom line is that you would be taking up a position that could be given to a Thai therefore I am guessing the question of why would need to be answered

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Originally Posted by Happy As Larry

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Will ask my uni about internships - there is a proccess of getting trainnee positions for students with help of uni.

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Yes these would be for Thai students I do not know how the government regulations would impact a foreigner seeking an internship but as volunteers require a work permit to be legal in Thailand I feel certain that they would not be without some similar paperwork.
bottom line is that you would be taking up a position that could be given to a Thai therefore I am guessing the question of why would need to be answered

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During the education students on my faculty must to have two internships. Most of Thai and foreigner students do it in Thailand, thus there is a legal process of getting WP for international students by university. Moreover, during the internships students work as a waiters, bat assistants, receptionist and other prohibited to do by non-thai stuff. Will speak to dean again, maybe can get a "third" internship just to work.

Btw, on the russian forum similar to this people advised to change education visa to non-b visa than process the wp and work. They told me, that I can study on non-b and also can get wp. Is it that easy? What are the problems behind?

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Btw, on the russian forum similar to this people advised to change education visa to non-b visa than process the wp and work. They told me, that I can study on non-b and also can get wp. Is it that easy? What are the problems behind?

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For the third time, visas are immigration and work permits are ministry of labor.
To apply for a work permit you must be legally holding an appropriate visa/permission to stay
The most common visa used when applying for a work permit is the B visa .

However to obtain a work permit you must have an offer of employment and your prospective employer must prepare and submit the appropriate paperwork.

You can not just ask the MOL 'please can I have a work permit as i might want to work somewhere sometime.' They are job specific

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Most of Thai and foreigner students do it in Thailand, thus there is a legal process of getting WP for international students by university.

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That is if they do everything by the book

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Most of Thai and foreigner students do it in Thailand, thus there is a legal process of getting WP for international students by university.

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News flash there; thai students can work in thailand without work permits because they're THAI you wing-nut Thais don't need work permits.

Actually it IS possible to get a work permit on an extension of stay due to education, BUT you can only do it in real honest to goodness degreed programs at real uni's. It's the "intern program" and the DOL (Department of Labor) will issue you a work permit while you are going to college so you can intern at some company to further your education.. And yes you can get paid to do it too..

Now you ain't gonna get a work permit studying at "Somchai the Thai's School 'o Mixing Drinks", but you can most definitely hold a work permit whilst on an ed visa. Your school would know about it IF you can, so if they don't know about it, it means you can't..

P/S: I saw this same post on other thai related forums. O/P, how about sharing the advice you got from those places.. I am too lazy to go look.

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"Somchai the Thai's School 'o Mixing Drinks"

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hey ! cut our learned scholar some slack will you.

Its the Bangkok University Postgraduate faculty of Advanced Practical Mixology and Theoretical Bottlewashing techniques.

[QUOTE=toddaniels;3095315]

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

P/S: I saw this same post on other thai related forums. O/P, how about sharing the advice you got from those places.. I am too lazy to go look.

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Well, the conclusion was - "go on teakdoor"))

See I was right, about Teakdoor, they sort out the men from the boys. Abrelour was a mixer on here.Cheers.

How long is it going to take before this guy figures out that his chances of getting a work permit to be a bartender or bar back are zero to none?