BKKSW's "Good Girls for Dummies![at]#%!" A Primerfrom stickman
Ov er the years I've been asked a lot of questions about dating a "good girl" and on how to succeed on this front. More recently, the last few years perhaps, I've had 'good girls' ask me about the same things. Their questions usually start with "I can't believe he did/said this.." and ends with "is this normal for a western man." This most recent trend amuses me because in essence, we now have Thai girls thinking that perhaps they need to make allowances for poor behavior because of western cultural influences! I'll start by saying straight out that most of these issues are more a question of maturity, confidence, and self-esteem than cultural differences.
My personal experience is limited to "good girls" and I have no experience in the bars other than the occasional visit with friends. How much experience? I'm basing this submission on the views of no less than 20 Thai good girls from 20 - 40 years of age, most being in the 23 - 28 year range. Most are still in contact with me and I consider them friends. If we include "casual acquaintances" the number is likely double or more.
GOOD GIRLS
What constitutes a good girl has been discussed to death. I'll give you my definition and at the same time accept there are many others. This submission will work off my definition. Good girls are women who come from traditional families with traditional values, and can come from any social strata and economic status. Good girls can be highly educated, or have no education. Good girls might have sexual experience, or none at all. Good girls can be sluts or virgins. A good girl like many western women, might decide to save themselves for marriage, or instead play the field and gain experience before marriage. They come in all flavors and experience sets. The deciding factor for a self described "good girl" is based more in how they see themselves and how they want others to see them, than any measure of sexual history. A good girl eventually wants a traditional family based on high moral values.
With the above in mind, know that the same girl who sees you as someone interesting to sleep with and sleeps with you quickly, might very well make a man they see as husband material wait for months or even until marriage to have sexual relations. Yes, this means if you appeal to them sexually but not long term, they might very well sleep with you rather quickly for those reasons. And the next guy that comes along might not attract them as strongly on a physical level, but instead they'll appeal to the maternal side of the woman as a long term partner and you could very well end up waiting until marriage for the sexual side of things.
BE IN IT FOR THE LONG HAUL
Most good girls will expect any meaningful relationship to be a long term relationship. They don't like being rushed or pressured and often such relationships seem to 'happen' over a much longer period of time than I personally was used to. "Pursuing" a good girl as you would a western girl will almost certainly make them feel uncomfortable. This can be rough because western men look at how expensive these visits from halfway around the world can be, and how hard it is to get vacation time, so with this in mind they'll try to get more 'economy' from a relationship by making it move along even faster. This will be in direct conflict with what makes a good girl comfortable, and might even make you appear desperate and off-balance in character.
Expect to take your time, slow and steady, and accept nothing will happen when you want or expect it to. "Putting in the time" almost seems like a test, or maybe an initiation process. During this time she won't expect you to push her, and for sure she won't respect it. Any 'games' or 'manipulation' to hurry things along will be seen in a strong negative light. However, if you act like a man, confident and sure, and show her you have an interesting life that keeps you busy regardless, then don't be surprised if she reaches a sort of mental release point where she's decided it's time to step things up. Play this right and you'll be rewarded. Play it wrong and it might be unrecoverable.
WHERE TO FIND GOOD GIRLS
It's probably easier to tell you where you won't find them. You won't find them in Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, Walking Street, Patpong, or any of the heavy tourist areas. In these areas all you'll find is an assortment of predators.
Educational institutions and work places (especially international companies) are both excellent venues in which to meet good girls. I've had great luck both as a student in my MBA program and later teaching classes. International corporations attract more than their share of good girls with a great education, English skills, and family connections. Cultural and charity events are chock full of good girls. Even something as simple as going for a massage at certain high-end spas during certain times of the day will result in great introductions.
Good girls aren't kept under lock and key at home. You'll find them at the same places, doing the same things, as you would women in your own country. If you like sports, check out tennis and golf clubs during the middle of the day. If you have hobbies consider pursuing them in Thailand where you'll meet lots of women who enjoy the same hobby. Everywhere you go outside of the tourist destinations will result in opportunities.
THE MONGER FACTOR
Most men who live or come to Thailand have some degree of history in the nightlife scene. You need to know that any good girl sees this as a giant red flag. They see you being an ex-monger, in the exact same way you see a bargirl being an ex-prostitute. It's not something they want their friends or family to know, it's something they'll always want to keep from others. And like an ex-bargirl needs to walk a straighter line of behavior and honesty to convince you she's out the game and onto a virtuous path, you'll need to do the same in the eyes of any good girl who decides she can accept your past. And make no mistake, many if not most good girls won't even bother with you.
And don't think you can hide your past from a good girl. Bargirl Thai, familiarity with certain locations, and even hygiene habits can give you away. It's far better to be honest and deal with it. Never lie to a good girl. If you have such a past be honest about it, and expect she'll be watching you like a hawk and that you'll need to prove yourself. Like men, good girls will all have different proof and acceptance factors.
If she can accept this about you, don't blow it by being dishonest or assuming you can out "clever" her. Chances are you'll lose. And know, probably the vast majority of good girls won't consider dating a man with a monger past. Because I've never personally had to deal with this I can only go on what Thai women have told me.. and that is to be honest from the beginning.
ON-LINE RELATIONSHIPS
I personally would discourage any on-line activity to nothing more than a brief introduction and exchange of information to determine compatibility, and an agreement to meet in person at a certain time to explore each other further. Unfortunately, it's not even hard to believe these days that someone could fall in love and make plans for marriage all based on internet chat without every meeting the person! Yes, trust me there are people like this out there. They'll meet someone on-line, chat away for a few weeks, and then based on a very limited on-line exchange of information determine that this person is suitable for marriage and that they actually love the person.
DING DING DING.. those are the warning bells and red flags waving wildly in your face. Any man or woman who would profess feelings of love and make commitments such as engagement or marriage without ever meeting a person face to face is an absolute idiot and you should run far and fast from such a person. Perhaps "idiot" isn't the right word, but for certain they have mental issues which distracts them from sound judgment and perhaps even reality.
Remember, when you're chatting with a "girl" on line, that "girl" could be an 80 year old man, a 10 year old school girl, or Tessa the Tranny. You think you can tell? Think again, the internet is full of people pretending to be someone they're not and many have developed decent skills at doing just this. If you haven't met the person face to face, then you don't know them at all. And no, you can't substitute an actual meeting for pictures or on-line biographies or Facebook accounts. These are all very easy to fake or steal.
An on-line relationship should be kept low-key, friendly, safeguard private information, and have just enough contact to determine if you're interested in meeting that person live.
Once you meet the lady in person, spend time with her, and develop a real blood and flesh relationship, then chatting on-line is a great way to bridge the distance in long-distance relationships, take care of business matters, etc. Don't put the cart before the horse.
DON'T MAKE THIS MISTAKE
You are not your good girl's savior. You are not the great white hunter colonizing Thailand and saving the savages from themselves. If you go into a relationship with the mindset that because you're American or English or whatever.. that she should be grateful for the "opportunity" you're providing her.. then you're setting yourself up for failure and a rude awakening. Many guys think because they can offer a good girl citizenship in their country and perhaps a higher standard of living, then the good girl should be eternally grateful to them and show their gratitude by becoming whatever the guy wants them to become.
Whether it's a good girl from a farm whose life in Thailand revolves around crops and family, or a university professor with tenure and prestige, you're going to be hard pressed to convince them they'll be improving their lot in life by moving to a strange country away from family, friends and career to serve essentially as your house maid and sex partner. In many cases you just may find that your good girl has a higher education, a better career, and a higher position in society than you personally could ever dream of achieving.
THIS IS HUGE
Don't insult your good girl with mind games, tricks, or 'clever' ploys to check up on her, determine her honesty, or any of the CRAP you'd do with a bargirl. Your good girl is not a bargirl, treating her like one is a major insult and will piss her off past any point of reconciliation. You need to get your head past the jealousy and distrust factors and realize that you're dating a good girl precisely because she's a GOOD girl. That means letting go of petty immature jealousies, unearned distrust, and checking up on her. If you can't do this then frankly you're neither suitable nor ready to be dating a good girl. Good girls demand and have earned your trust from day one, this is the default position. The same position you'd afford a like western woman.
And let's not forgot, if you're in the majority with a monger past.. she's the one who should be treating you this way.
EXPECTATIONS
What are your expectations? I know this sounds silly, but most guys I ask don't know. No one has ever asked them so they've never thought about it. You should. You should ask yourself what you expect from a relationship with a good girl. Is it only sex? The 'rent to own' program (sex with the possibility of marriage)? Business networking? There are many reasons you might want to have a growing list of good girl contacts. I have many, friends, business contacts, past interests, etc. What works best is full and complete disclosure, never lie and never make excuses or apologize because you know someone.
What do good girls expect? In general good girls want exactly the same thing(s) men want, but within the limits of their culture. Comfort is the number one factor. The more comfortable you make them, the better success you'll enjoy. A good girl wants you to instinctively know how and when to fit into her life. She wants to be able to take you anywhere and not worry that you're going to embarrass yourself and subsequently her. You should have skills in dress and grooming for different occasions, the ability to converse across a wide range of subjects, and the self-awareness to know when to be quiet. You should be able to clue in on the environment and adjust accordingly. You should know there are different rules when calling or visiting her at work, at her family's home, and even around friends. How her co-workers, friends and family see you is very important to her.
Good girls know when you're manipulating them, and they might even let themselves be put into uncomfortable situations out of politeness. You should avoid both at all costs. In short, the more comfortable you can make a good girl, the more she'll let you into her life and the more benefits of the relationship with her you'll enjoy. All this can happen very quickly, from minutes to months. As she learns about and grows comfortable with you, she'll decide in what way you'll fit into her life if at all.
BE A MAN
This is a tough one, and probably more controversial than most. No one likes to hear this, we all like to think we're "being a man" already. Try to think of this as being a man the way a good girl expects you to be a man. I find that good girls don't like whiners or cry babies. They don't want to believe a man can be hormonal like a woman. If you can't have your way quickly forget about it and move on. Mentioning it again, trying to make them feel guilty about it, or heaven forbid the infamous "I've come all this way to see you so it's only fair if.." Women anywhere don't want to hear this stuff! They also don't want to hear "it's up to you." Women like a man who can make decisions on his own, and sound, fair decisions for both of them.. but only if they're decisions she could support.
Women like strong men, but strong doesn't include controlling, overbearing, or manipulative. Strong means confident, in control of their emotions, only letting the big things bother them and being able to provide quality leadership she feels 'comfortable' following. Remember, 'comfort', is key for good girls. Help them feel comfortable and you'll be rewarded in huge ways. But if they have to worry that you'll get your little feelings hurt or your panties twisted every time something doesn't go your way, then they won't feel comfortable with you. Worse, they won't respect you.
Women also won't respect you if you're not man enough to put a stop to their nonsense. Always agreeing with them, not finding faults in them when they know they have faults, avoiding confrontation, good girls will hold all of these things and more against you and think of you as less than a man if you allow it. Why? Everyone knows they need someone to keep them in check at times, and who better than your potential spouse? Also, women know your career will depend on your ability to be a man, stand up for yourself when it's fair and warranted, and your ability to promote yourself without appearing to boast or display arrogance. Your ability to bargain for a home depends on these traits, and to handle issues after the bargaining phase is completed. Good girls want to know their man is tough and capable and will/can always look out for their best interests, and the best interests of their future family.
Some good girls are more than capable of wearing the pants in regards to these things, and being secure enough as a man to let them do so at times will be appreciated. But if they 'must' wear the paints too often or all the time because their 'man' isn't rising to the occasion will turn them off to you in many ways ranging from self-respect to sexual. Being a man also means you're capable and know the proper times to "take it on the chin" and/or let something go. Maturity isn't a measure of age, it's a measure of experience and capability.
The "do's" and "don'ts" list below is long and the subject of the rest of this submission. Because there is no logical way to order these, I'm going to talk about them as they come to mind. Also, each item I talk about is something I've had feedback on from no less than 5 good girls. This list is obviously not inclusive. There are many more I don't know, some I choose to not list, and others I'll assume everyone knows. Consider sending in your own.
DO NOT take a good girl out of her comfort zone. Many guys make the mistake of thinking that by taking them away from their home town, family, or friends, that they can more easily control them. A woman who isn't comfortable won't be giving you the time of day.
DO be a confident man with a positive self-image. If you're not a secure person for any reason then fix yourself before pursuing a good girl. Seek whatever repairs you need from the proper professionals.
DO NOT call a good girl "tee ruk" (or even worse, "tee Luk") because she knows it's a term commonly used by bargirls and their Johns and it will piss her off. Also, don't use ANY of the "Thai" you learned in the bar scene. Without realizing it you've instantly labeled yourself a monger and using these words with a good girl will make her feel "yukky." Even more importantly, DO NOT use these words with your good girl in the presence of her coworkers, friends or family. This would be an immediate major loss of face for her, and make you look like a buffoon. Use only the Thai you've learned in Thai class, or which she teaches you.
DO maintain and travel with enough wardrobe for reasonably anticipated functions. Pay attention to current trends and style, but don't feel a need to ride the bleeding edge. If you show up with a suitcase full of tank tops, cargo shorts, and sandals.. you should be staying on Beach Road, not pursuing a good girl.
DO NOT offer to buy her plane tickets, take her to fancy hotels, or any thing that costs a lot of money too early in the relationship. She's looking for a guy who knows the value of money and won't waste it, someone she can trust with the family finances. Not someone who would throw this kind of money away on someone they really don't know yet. And especially don't offer to do this if in the context you'd bribe a bargirl to come visit you in your country. Take things slow, be smart with money, and make her earn your generosity. She'll respect you much more.
DO take some time to learn about Thailand's current events. Can you name the King? The PM? Do you know the political leaders of Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos, and Thailand's other immediate neighbors? Are you familiar with Thailand's political system?
DO NOT dumb down your English and talk to her the way you might talk to a bargirl. They think of this in the same light as someone "baby talking" a small child. Not only is it insulting to those whose English is fine, but it's rarely helpful if not.
DO learn about Thai culture as much as possible. Your local library probably has some decent primers, and the internet is full of information. Learn. Using your new knowledge of the culture effectively is key. Verbally showing you "understand" won't be nearly as effective as demonstrating you understand. Actions speak louder than words. Listen to her, little things from PDA (public display of affection) preferences, to what her parents expect, to small requests you might not even think are important, are in fact very important to her and demonstrating you understand and care about her feelings in these small matters will pay off huge dividends. It will also make her think you're intelligent and attentive.
DO NOT take her to most places a bargirl took you to. Trying to impress a good girl with your intimate knowledge of every massage parlor on Ratchada or every bar on Walking Street is not getting off to a good start. The same goes for the location in general. She might wonder why you choose to stay in certain locations, or if she knows about your past why you continue to stay in certain locations.
DO show a willingness to travel out of the tourist centers and experience more of the country.
DO NOT introduce your good girl to your bargirl friends. Yes, there are people stupid enough to do just this. Somehow in their very limited minds they think a good girl will think it's a positive thing to show her how impressive of a man they are by having and maintaining such relationships. Like they'll think "look honey, I didn't just bonk them for money, I also valued them as human beings." is a positive. This is very much like telling someone you read Playboy for the stories and bringing out your porn collection to share it's literary value.
This is only a primer to get you started, there is much more along these lines to cover and consider. If you already know and practice most of these things then great. If you find yourself recognizing your own mistakes then you have work to do. And of course it's possible you just have a different opinion on some matters which is perfectly fine, and I encourage you to share anything along these lines with the rest of us.
Or maybe after reading this you just think good girls are too damn much trouble and it's easier and more to your liking to stay a monger? In such cases I think it's great, it takes all kinds to make the world go round. Whatever the route you decide to take I wish you the most success. Women are wonderful creatures and I think it's great when we can please them. It's more great when we can make them please us.
Until next time..
Stickman's thoughts:
That's a lot of really sound advice.
If I may make a couple of comments, I would say that MANY men coming to Thailand should not be pursuing a long-term relationship as they have perhaps unresolved issues that need to be worked out first, perhaps a divorce or two or perhaps a lack of any real success with women in their own country.
One also needs to be sure that the woman they are dating really is a genuine "good girl". More than a few women make this claim but really they are not...
