Bar back\Bartending - part-time, courses, aprenticeship for foreign student?

Hello everyone!

I've been advised to ask my question here at ajarn forum (if it is prohibited to refer to other web sites - sorry, I will cut this part).

Well, I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management. About two month ago I realized my passion for the bartending, cocktail mixology and bar operations. I tried to find a part-time in the first place but then, everyone knows (except for me, of course, cause I didn't researched on this thing when came to Thailand ten month ago) that it requires work permit, which is impossible to get with Student Visa. I also found two bartending courses (one in Bangkok and another at Phuket), however the prices are too expensive, for me, lol.

So, at the previous forum some people told me that here are some bar owners and my question for them - I am really dynamic, enthusiastic, hard-working and fast-learning person. My main goal for now is to get an experience and I don't think about the money (okay, I am not naive, it is always good to raise some cash but for now it is not what I am aiming for). I would be really happy to get a chance to work in a fine bar as a bar back, bar waiter or, if you don't seeking for now for something outstanding - even bartending with very low pay or even without it at all. I already have some experience in producing the drinks and worked as a bartender and waiter for a bit of time, have product and equipment knowledge. I am easily engaging with people, confident in myself and can work under pressure. If you are a good bartender I will be happy to become, hmm, I am calling it - your bar apprentice and learn while working. I see myself in this industry and don't want to lose time, want to challenge myself, want to kick start my career in bartending.

Nonetheless, my questions to everyone else:
Do you know any bar\restaurant, etc. with foreign manager or bartender? I found like three to four places and planning to visit them to chat with the managers.
What can you advise me to do?

Thank you very much for you attention, I am open for any critic\reccomendation and discussion!

Welcome to the Buffalo Board, Ivan...Wish you luck finding a place...Can't you do that in the Ukraine?...Tell us a bit about home...

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Originally Posted by BaitongBoy

Welcome to the Buffalo Board, Ivan...Wish you luck finding a place...Can't you do that in the Ukraine?...Tell us a bit about home...

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I can do it at home but I in Ukraine we don't have proper Hospitality management degrees. I want to build my career in Hospitality and Bartending is just a sector of this industry. I am pretty sure that I will work as a bartender and mixologist but you never know. I want to have a good International paper, which will give me an opportunity to work at least in Asia, however we don't have such things in Ukraine.

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mixologist

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snigger


What?

You a course to show you how to open a bottle and pour liquid into a glass!!!

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

What can you advise me to do?

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Most all the large international 5 star hotels have foreign F&B managers. Suggest you ask around those to find situation you are looking for.

To work as a bar back/apprentice in a proper bar you will need appropriate visa and work permit.

Appears your English skills are good so is a plus. Also, if you like most ukrainians, speak Russian, a plus. In your position, I would be looking at high end hotels with significant amount of Russian customers. Google is your friend. I am no help regarding 5 star hotels catering to Russians.

Good luck and welcome to Teak Door.

If you wanted a job as a cabinet maker first you have to know which is the hammer and which is the chisel and which gets hit with what.

So even for basic bar tending you need to know your drinks and cocktails, and how to make them. If not you are no use to anyone even for work experience.

Have you bought any books on cocktails? Do you know a black Russian from a Singapore sling. What is the difference between Haig and Glenlivet? The difference between Gilbeys and Gordons ?

As has been said you need foreign managed hotels and ones with cocktail bars not just bars. To take advantage of your language skills, you also need to target hi-end places where the customers actually sit at the bar? So hi-end roof garden bars. Also large international hotels so you can move to different places.

Start at the Oriental and work down. Get an appointment with the F&B managers and ask for their advice before asking for a job. Also ask them for the names of other F&B managers in town etc. This should all be done in person not via the internet. This shows commitment and effort. Research each place and find out the name of the F&B manager then walk in at a quiet time and ask to speak to that person. If any minion you talk to is evasive and asks to many questions before pointing you towards the F&B person. Tell them you wish to ask him about his experience and work history, something that doesn't indicate that you want a job.

Aim to be the hotel manager one day. So ask each person you talk to about their training and experience. Everyone likes to talk about themselves so...

If you are tall and handsome research the high end nightclubs like , say, the odd ones on Soi 11 and do the same thing. Management will be Thai so maybe not so user friendly but...


Last resort:) move to Ibiza where they drink lots of cocktails?

Good luck

Ummm, isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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Originally Posted by VocalNeal

So even for basic bar tending you need to know your drinks and cocktails, and how to make them. If not you are no use to anyone even for work experience.

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Making the drinks is the easy part...Any monkey can do that...Everybody has a book to follow...Like cooking...It will take a person about 2 years to learn the trade which is mainly communicating with your patrons while they change before your eyes in the mist of alcohol...

Depends on the speed needed to serve in the place you work...Generally, the high-end places aren't five deep around the bar with drunks clamouring for Pink Ladies...

Don't know how to make a drink?...Look it up and build it if you have the time...Better yet, ask the patron how they like it...They will make the best one they ever had right in front of your eyes....

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Originally Posted by celtic

isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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It is indeed. Just checked. :)

!I beg to differ:-

"Category C. You are allowed to do the following:
Exporting, all wholesale trades not in A & B. retiling machinery, equipment & tools, selling food, beverages that promote tourism. Industrial & handicraft Business: manufacturing animal feeds, vegetable oil extraction, textile manufacturing, dyeing, fabric printing, glass ware manufacturing, making plates and bowls, stationary & printing paper, rock salt mining, mining.
In the category, you have to apply for a work permit in order to do business legally in Thailand."

http://www.thaiworkpermit.com/prohib...-thailand.html

Wow, so many interesting info, thanks to everyone who answered! Didn't have time to check the forum for the last three days and didn't expect that there will be more than 2-3 answers.

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Have you bought any books on cocktails? Do you know a black Russian from a Singapore sling. What is the difference between Haig and Glenlivet? The difference between Gilbeys and Gordons ?

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Of course I educate myself. Read a couple of bar tending basic books. For now keep the "Cocktail Lab" near the bed but, honestly, this one is for those who is quite advanced in mixology and I just have fun reading but don't understand much. Found some interesting bartenders on YouTube as well. Researching for the classic cocktails, go through the history of bartending and etc. I am quite serious, lol, so of course I am preparing myself in a theory, doing my own Bartending 101 if you want. Btw, started to practice on flaring - not exactly what I want to do in my career but, well, it is also related to bar tending and it is something what I can already practice with.

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As has been said you need foreign managed hotels and ones with cocktail bars not just bars. To take advantage of your language skills, you also need to target hi-end places where the customers actually sit at the bar? So hi-end roof garden bars. Also large international hotels so you can move to different places.

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I spent hours searching internet for some opportunities, although didn't pay too much attention to hotels and clubs sector. Will try to make a list of some hotels with foreign F&B managers and also will put on the list some clubs.

At this weekend I am planning to hit the Thonglor area - found there 4-6 promising places, two with foreign owners. Hope that I will have a chance to speak with these guys.

Also there is an opportunity to work at Khao San for 800 bath per shift as bartender and as far as I know the guy doesn't ask for a work permit. But nobody has answered me yet and most probably won't :(.

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Ummm, isn't bartending on that long list of "Thai only" jobs??

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Yeah, it is. But I saw couple of farangs behind the bar, and not in Pataya or Phuket, where no rules but in Bangkok.

I really don't understand the Thailand work for foreigners regulations. If I am a student and I am working somewhere for the learning purposes and don't get paid at all - is it still considered to be illegal?

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snigger


What?

You a course to show you how to open a bottle and pour liquid into a glass!!!

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Go type "mixologist" in google and than laugh, okay?))

"mixologist "(snigger) just a pretentious word for a bartender, much like calling a garbage collector a "refuse recycling technologist" or calling the part timer who presses the buttons on the machine at starbucks a "barista" or calling a whore a "sexual services provider"

you pour drinks, take the money and give change. why not just do it well and be proud of what you do rather than invite derision and try to make out it is something else by giving it a stupid pretentious name.



http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/04/tr...or-bartenders/

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Type "mixologist" into your laptop and you'll see that red squiggly snake beneath it, suggesting that the word doesn't even officially exist.

My initial attempt to get to the bottom of the mixologist/bartender question only confuses things further.

At The Landmark Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong's annual Masters of Mixology event in 2014, I find myself talking to three talented international bartenders.

Despite the name of the event they were a part of, each dismissed the term mixologist like it's stale beer.............................

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

Also there is an opportunity to work at Khao San for 800 bath per shift as bartender and as far as I know the guy doesn't ask for a work permit.

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That's not how work permits work. You don't obtain some generic work permit and show up at a job and flash it.
Work permits are job specific and your employer must assist you in applying for one. He is not doiung you any favours by'not asking for one'. He can't be bothered to provide you with all the necessary paperwork even if you were allowed to obtain one for a joba s a bartender and if the authorities were to stop by and ask for your non-existant work permit it would be you in trouble.

To work without a WP is illegal

how much does a work permit cost these days and how long does it take to process one.

i would have thought the only way our professor of mixological techniques is going to get a work permit would be for him to be offered an employment contract in a top end hotel or nightclub at a salary legally acceptable for foreigners rather than a casual offer from someone with a kao saan road bar looking for cheap labour who would not offer support when labour and immigration officers make their inevitable visit, arrest, imprisonment, trial, fine and deportation.

make mine a treble please.

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Originally Posted by taxexile

how much does a work permit cost these days and how long does it take to process one.

i would have thought the only way our professor of mixological techniques is going to get a work permit would be for him to be offered an employment contract in a top end hotel or nightclub at a salary legally acceptable for foreigners rather than a casual offer from someone with a kao saan road bar looking for cheap labour who would not offer support when labour and immigration officers make their inevitable visit, arrest, imprisonment, trial, fine and deportation.

make mine a treble please.

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I don't really understand what have I done to you and why you are being so sarcastic :) I came here to get advice, to speak with interesting people, to get the employment offer (okay, i am not really counting on it, but you never know). The only thing I am looking for right now it's interesting experience in field which I really love in the way it would be okay in Thailand).

Not to argue with you but just to a bit change your point of view, my friend:
Bar tending and mixology are different things. Bar tending is essentialy operation of bar, while mixology is in general - mixing and creating of drinks (it is really in general).
There is much more behind the bar tending than you see. Before somebody will pour a drink to your glass there are hours of pre-shift preparation, practise, learning, product knowledge, acquaring social skills and etc. Of course, if we speak about small drunkyard in a countryside with dirty glasses and ugly hookers down the corner... lol, obviously I am not aiming for this in my life. However in fine-dining five star world, where the cocktail culture is really strong, where people demand the ritual of drinking - the bar tender is a professional. Don't forget that bar tending it is part of hospitality industry and the main focus is on catering people and to serve people is definetely not for everybody. In addition, even if we omit all little details behind pouring the drink - try to imagine the usual workflow for bartenders during the busydays, when there are dozens of people and all they want is to get their portion of alcohol and sometimes barman don't even get a second to take a small sip of water in hours.
May sound very dramatic but that's how things work. I had a really little experience on bartending and serving the people and can say for sure - it is not about "every monkey can do this", no, however it is hard and stressful and it will squize the juices out of you. But I kind of like it and want to go deeper into industry.

Talking about mixology thing - any five-star establishment which have the provision of alcoholic beverages will have to hire someone who will make for them a nice beverage menu and it is done by the person called, suddenly, mixologist. Mostly these two jobs - bar tending and mixology, can be done by one person but there are examples of really famous people who live only on doing mixology and rarely working behind the bar. Although, most of the mixology done by bartenders themselves.
Well, that's what I mean saying the world "mixology" you might probably understand it differently.

You asked about work permit but the problem is that I cannot get one with student visa. That mean that for the next three years I cannot work at all. I don't have an alternative to come back home, btw. Of course in these kind of conditions I am trying to find legal and fine variant to work and get the experience, that's why in reality of Thailand I would be glad to work without sallary!

When and if you will answer me - please ask yourself, are you doing somebody a favor or you just saying something quite rude and obnoxious?

Have you thought about working on international cruise ships, accomodation free and travel the oceans and see exotic places.
Their was a Hollywood movie staring Tom Cruise , about him mixing cocktails but I never saw the movie and cannot recall the title.

^But he lost all credibility when he stood on Oprah's sofa...

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Originally Posted by wasabi

Have you thought about working on international cruise ships, accomodation free and travel the oceans and see exotic places.
Their was a Hollywood movie staring Tom Cruise , about him mixing cocktails but I never saw the movie and cannot recall the title.

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Work on a cruise ship is on my list of "must to do" and if not as a bartender but as an any kind of manager at least. But I'll have to get a degree first.

There seems to be some confusion about the validity of term "mixology", which is indeed a real word! My 8 year old son is a mixologist after recently learning how to combine Vimto Ribena and water thus creating the ultimate child's cocktail, I witnessed this creation presonaly and made a video to submit to the Guiness Book of Records for the youngest mixologist ever, although many years ago he did mix a soiled nappy with sand but I'm unsure weather that counts

Sure, and he'd be a mixoloxist...

Tax is just jealous he can't even pour a beer...Heh...

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I don't really understand what have I done to you and why you are being so sarcastic I came here to get advice, to speak with interesting people, to get the employment offer (okay, i am not really counting on it, but you never know). The only thing I am looking for right now it's interesting experience in field which I really love in the way it would be okay in Thailand).

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....... and i wish you the best of luck and every success with your endeavours, i really do.

but you are being far too sensitive and prissy about my comments ..... do you really have what it takes to be a "mixologist", dealing with drunken customers shouting and complaining if your concoctions are a millilitre out or a couple of degrees too warm.

and mines a martini, that'll be shaken not stirred. :)

Bruises on the Grey Goose coming right up...Heh...

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am trying to find legal and fine variant to work and get the experience, that's why in reality of Thailand I would be glad to work without sallary!

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Even if you work without salary you will still need to obtain a work permit.
In essence you have to demonstrate that you are not taking a job from a local.
I think that you will find it quite difficult to find legal work in this field

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management.

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Suggest you speak with your school administrators about your plan. They would be much better to advise you on the best way to achieve your goal.

You've recieved some decent advice here but TD members are typically consumers of a "mixoligist's" product rather than expert in the field.

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Originally Posted by Norton

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Originally Posted by IvanBrik

I am a student from Ukraine in Bangkok, studying International Hospitality Management.

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Suggest you speak with your school administrators about your plan. They would be much better to advise you on the best way to achieve your goal.

You've recieved some decent advice here but TD members are typically consumers of a "mixoligist's" product rather than expert in the field.

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Of course, I've already spoke to everybody in my school - my dean, my lecturers, the students administration, my friends who are foreigners and work on student visa without WP (boom, nobody was deported or even fined). They gave me good advices and some of them are helping me a lot even now)