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Why is it a general assumption that a Palestinian state has a right to exist?
There seems to be little if any historical pretext.
If anything a good case exists for the entire area to be Jordan.(since WW1 anyway)
And significant ancient historical pretext exists to support the existence of Israel. (which dates long before Mohammed)
But at no time was there ever a nation know as Palestine.
So why do we assume the so called Palestinians have any rights of sovereignty???
They couldn't orgainze a piss-up in a brewery let alone run a country of their own. Disperse them to the other Arab countries and let a proven democracy that's already in place run things.
Palestine, as a geographical name for an area occupied by the Palestinian nation or tribe, has existed for thousands of years. Palestinians pronounce the name Falasteen, that's the same people as the Philistines in the Bible - that implies that they were living in that area even before the Hebrews arrived. The historical "pretexts" for Palestinians living in that area go back to the records of ancient Egypt. This long, long history of Palestinian occupation of the area of which Israel is now part is one of the major reasons the Palestinians resent Israeli occupation so much.
^But it seems the other Arab countries don't want them either.
WorldNetDaily: Who cares about Palestinians?
^^
asked and answered. well done.
NEXT!
Perhaps a few tribes existed, but most of these so called "Palestinians" arrived after the Zionist pioneers of the 1860's. Which is when arab immigration into the area started.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
Most of these "Palestinians" are simply arab immigrants who followed the Zionists pioneers.
^^^
Got that right.
They were and still are the rabble left over from the rest of Arabia.
No amount of hand-wringing and bleeding-heart sentiment will make them amount to anything...
in case you've forgotten, this was the question in your OP....
and drbob answered it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Earl
but why should that stop the backtracking and the seemingly inevitable revisionism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Earl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Mee
Palestinians aren't real Arabs, Boonie. That's one reason no Arab state gives a hoot for them.
<sigh> Instead of asking what seemed like a sensible question why didn't you just say what you wanted to say in the first place? Then nobody would have had to waste their time replying to a question you've already decided you have an answer to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr EarlPerhaps a few tribes existed, but most of these so called "Palestinians" arrived after the Zionist pioneers of the 1860's. Which is when arab immigration into the area started.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
Most of these "Palestinians" are simply arab immigrants who followed the Zionists pioneers.
^^ I guess you failed to notice how most of these "Palestinians" are simply arab immigrants.
Should Israelis simply roll over and die because the "Palestinians" want them to?
BTW I read the link in you signature and it's a POS!
Prior to the Zionist pioneers of the 1860's the area know as Palestine was a depopulated area.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
I'm curious how so many arabs immigrants became "Palestinians"???
What signature? Is your ^ out of sync?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Earl
Yea I was referring to Ray.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
Prior to 1860 I've no idea but Israel didn't exist until 1948. At that time the UN gave a round figure of 711,000 Palestinian refugees fleeing the area. I have no doubt that a great many of them, if not all, were of Arab stock but I also doubt that many of the newly-arrived Israelis were of pure Israelite stock and even if they were I don't see how that gives them any more rights to the land than the people already living there. I don't believe that the Israelis being driven into the sea or the Palestinians being pressured into leaving will solve any problems, I believe that the only hope for that area lies in a compromise that allows both populations to live in peace. How that will happen I don't know but I am sure that the current activities of both Palestinians and Israelis can lead only to disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr EarlPrior to the Zionist pioneers of the 1860's the area know as Palestine was a depopulated area.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0b
I'm curious how so many arabs immigrants became "Palestinians"???
Israel was created at the bequest of the Zionists to protect themselves from arab aggression.Quote:
At the end of World War I, the territory now comprising Israel, Jordan, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Jerusalem was awarded to the United Kingdom by the League of Nations as the mandate called "Palestine Trans-Jordan." In 1922, the British, with the League's approval under the terms of the Mandate, partitioned Palestine at the Jordan River and established the semi-autonomous Emirate of Trans-Jordan in those territories to the east. The British installed the Hashemite Prince Abdullah I while continuing the administration of separate Palestine and Trans-Jordan under a common British High Commissioner. The mandate over Trans-Jordan ended on May 22, 1946; on May 25, the country became the independent Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan. It ended its special defense treaty relationship with the United Kingdom in 1957.
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Following World War II, the British announced their intention to withdraw from the British mandate of Palestine. The United Nations General Assembly proposed the partition of Palestine into two states, an Arab state and a Jewish state, with Jerusalem to be under United Nations administration. Most Jews in Palestine accepted the proposal, while most of the Arabs in Palestine rejected it.
Violence between Arab and Jewish communities erupted almost immediately. Toward the end of the British mandate, the Jews planned to declare a separate state, a development the Arabs were determined to prevent. On May 14, 1948, the last British forces withdrew from Palestine, and the Jews, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan.
I've enjoyed a nice Korean BBq tonight, and it's so good to come back and have my table laid for me.
In no particular order-
Palestine was never depopulated, furthermore it enjoyed one of the better standards of living in the Arab world as it is now defined. There was also a population of Jews that lived there for as many centuries as anyone can remember who also enjoyed the same standard of living, because they were unpersecuted.
The 'True Israeli' population are almost all Peaceniks now, but they are a small minority in modern Israel.
The Palestinians bloodline is according to them mainly Phoenician. I am not sure if the Philistine's were a race as such, I will look into it. The centre of the Phoenician Empire was what is now Lebanon, but modern Lebanon has evolved as an entrepot and is quite mixed ethnically speaking. Phoenicia encompassed a good deal of modern Israel anyway.
What the Jews choose to call Israel was never a united nation- there was Judea and Samaria (the Samaritans). Most of modern Israel is in fact ancient Samaria.
I don't know what Arab means, but the Palestinians are defined as Arab these days. Genetically, they are closer to the Sephardic Jews than the Saudi Arabians. The Ashkenazi, most of modern Israels population, are very mixed. Their strongest bloodline originates from the Caucasus area. The Iranians (Persians) are not Arabic- they are Aryan.
The concept of the nation state is very fluid in history. Exceptions are places like the UK who's borders are defined by sea, and you only need look at that to realise how convoluted history is. This is by no means comprehensive or in historical order, but at various times Palestine/Israel has been part of the Assyrian, Roman, Babylonian, Hittite, Greek, Phoenician, Ottoman and Egyptian Empires. In more recent times it was known as Transjordan Palestine following the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire around 1920. This area (invented by the Brit's) had two ethnic peoples, being the Jordanians and the Palestinians, hence it's name.
The Palestinians continously habited Palestine for well over two thousand years. The story of there being an influx of foreigners there to compete with the Zionist Settlers is a Zionist myth, as is their ultimately Racist slogan, "A land without a people for a people without a Land". That is so long discredited now that even Zionists do not say it anymore, although apparently ignorant Americans do.
Anyway, American Settlers dispossesed the American Indians of their land around three hundred years ago. I have no idea how long they had been there, but the Palestinians have been living in Palestine for near ten times this long.
If you say the Palestinians have no right to Palestine, then you had better start packing your bags and leaving America, Upstarts.
In Alaska artifacts of native habitation date back 3000+years.
And the USA has made and is continuing to make ample reparations to native americans.
Ok so there is ancient historical precedent for a "Palestinian" state although one never really existed.
There is ancient historical precedent for a "native american" state that never existed either!
So do we go back in time and teach them to organize?
The Arab/Palestinians still can't get organized!!!
But you put two jews together and you have three organizations!
I can mostly agree with you there, although the Jews themselves would say you put three Jews together and you get five arguments!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Earl
We cannot undo all historical 'wrongs'.
To expel the Israeli's now, or destroy Israel, would be yet another wrong that I do not want. My issue is not Israel- my issue is Palestine.
As for American Indians, shamed to admit that you seem to be doing better there now than the Aussie's with our aborigine's.
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Originally Posted by sabangI can mostly agree with you there, although the Jews themselves would say you put three Jews together and you get five arguments!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Earl
We cannot undo all historical 'wrongs'.
To expel the Israeli's now, or destroy Israel, would be yet another wrong that I do not want. My issue is not Israel- my issue is Palestine.
As for American Indians, shamed to admit that you seem to be doing better there now than the Aussie's with our aborigine's.
agreed-- Israel should give back some of the land--- secure it's borders--expel all nonjews---- create a kill zone around it's country--- make ware house entry points for any goods to be exchanged between the borders
and let peace finally come to the region-- you stay on your side-- I will stay on mine !!!!
^I disagree.
When Sharon screwed up and handed over Gaza it just emboldened Hamas.
It's not just the US but the whole EU that won't recognize Hamas and what they stand for.
Israel tried to allow Palestinian state. The stupid Palestinians show their wisdom and responsibility by electing a terrorist government.
The arab/palestinians have shown they don't want to be a sovereign and autonomous entity by their refusal to accept Israel.
The Palestinians aren't entirely to blame, thirty years of milking the fat western tit of handouts has created a couple of generations of people who can't think or act for themselves. They are easy prey for the jihadist clerics.
It's quite ironic though that this 'Terrorist' or 'Freedom Fighting' Hamas has proved to be relatively moderate so far. Since their election Israeli killings of Palestinians have increased, yet the Palestinian killing of Israeli's was at it's lowest at any point since the beginning of the last Intifatida around 2000- at least last thing I knew.
They were voted in democratically by a Palestinian population basically sick and tired of the factionalism and corruption of the PLO.
It's a non-sequitur to use Hamas as an excuse anyway- the bottom line is Israel occupying the rump state of Palestine is both illegal and wrong. If you don't care about this aspect of things, stick to the pragmatic because it is also unsustainable, and I would argue endangers the continued existence of the state of Israel in the long term. It doesn't crop up in the Press much, but Israel is suffering from high unemployment and a recession due to the costs of the Intifatada. It only exists as a state due to massive foreign aid anyway.
As always in this argument, it goes around in circles after a while. Why is it only America in the whole world that stubbornly maintains this viewpoint? Am I to believe that the USA can be right, and the whole rest of the worlds population wrong? We wnet to school too you know, and European involvement and trade with this area far predates the white colonisation of America.
Some of the myths that you guys have spouted, such as Palestine having been depopulated before the Zionists(!!) show the sort of misinformation and propaganda you have grown up with. For your information, Jaffa, Tyre, Haifa, Acre, Hebron and Jerusalem are all counted as being amongst the worlds most ancient, continously inhabited cities.
Should an Israeli state exist ? that's also a relevant question
You're right - forgot about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrB0bQuote:
Originally Posted by Boon Mee
Palestinians aren't real Arabs, Boonie. That's one reason no Arab state gives a hoot for them.
They are...pretty much fucked then - all the way around.
It certainly is! If you've been paying attention you would have noticed the question has been answered. There are many good reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly
The topic of this thread is slightly different.
There are numerous reasons to support denying the existence of a Palestinian state.