Can I afford to take up SCUBA diving?

**TizMe** · 09-10-2012, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by TLansford

But the 2 examples that you mention above are extremely, extremely rare events. In order for either to occur, much less to be fatal, the diver must be diving in a way which goes against everything he/she was taught.

Not true at all.
Hyperbaric chambers don't sit around gathering dust.

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...

no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

Feel free to do the same.

So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

That is hardly and informed argument.

That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

First, I shared information.
Then I backed it up.
Others seem to think it is not true.
They can come with some information now.

That is how it works.

And I'm not your "matey"

**Cujo** · 09-10-2012, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Is that a case of boosting the appeal to authority?

Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...

no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

Feel free to do the same.

So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

That is hardly and informed argument.

That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

First, I shared information.
Then I backed it up.
Others seem to think it is not true.
They can come with some information now.

That is how it works.

And I'm not your "matey"

How exactly did you back it up?

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Originally Posted by TLansford

But that doesn't mean that it is not the law. It also explains why I haven't seen any dive shop on KT which doesn't send out groups with a guide. The only exceptions I have seen to this are DMTs (for the uninitiated, thoser are people in Dive Master training) going as a group or buddy pair as part of their training. But every shop I have been diving with sends your run of the mill tourist in the water with a guide. Even on Koh Tao, with it's relatively easy diving, I think that is a good idea. It is a safety issue.
.

I have dived all over Thailand in buddy pairs -no guide.

And that of course means that it is not the law... I am pretty sure I mentioned that CD stated this is not enforced... no surprise - if they don't enforce things like work permits, why would they enforce this?

I also don't know about "all over Thailand" - I do my diving on KT. Again for the dive shops that I have seen, there usually is a guide for the tourists, but not for DMTs. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen a group of tourists OWD/AOWD ever go in the water without a DM on KT - doesn't mean that it never happens, but it is not the norm where I dive.

The other gentlemen, who mentioned that he is a DM, stated that he does not dive in Thailand with a guide - that's not a surprise. He is already a dive professional. I've not ever seen a shop put a guide on a group of DMs and instructors. That would not be practical, would it?

If you have information on the actual law, go ahead and provide it. As for me, whether it is the law or not, doesn't actually change anything for my diving, so I don't worry about it.

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Koojo

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by nidhogg

Well, three course directors obviously carries more weight than a mere one.....

Anyway, the thread quashes it pretty much completely, obviously TL has some more personal adgenda going on here by raising it again...

no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

Feel free to do the same.

So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

That is hardly and informed argument.

That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

First, I shared information.
Then I backed it up.
Others seem to think it is not true.
They can come with some information now.

That is how it works.

And I'm not your "matey"

How exactly did you back it up?

Did you read the post?

3 course directors ...

**Cujo** · 09-10-2012, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Koojo

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

Originally Posted by TLansford

no personal agenda, just sharing the information that I have.

Feel free to do the same.

So far, the only proof to this not being the law which I have ever seen are people making an incredibly well informed "I have never heard about it" claim.

That is hardly and informed argument.

That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

First, I shared information.
Then I backed it up.
Others seem to think it is not true.
They can come with some information now.

That is how it works.

And I'm not your "matey"

How exactly did you back it up?

Did you read the post?

3 course directors ...

Funny guy huh.
You simply telling us (3) guys told you so, doesn't really qualify as backing anything up.

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by TizMe

Originally Posted by TLansford

But the 2 examples that you mention above are extremely, extremely rare events. In order for either to occur, much less to be fatal, the diver must be diving in a way which goes against everything he/she was taught.

Not true at all.
Hyperbaric chambers don't sit around gathering dust.

What I said was indeed true. If it occurs it means that the diver was not following his or her training. By definition, recreational diving is done within extremely conservative limits.

This summer an instructor I know had a student go to Samui for this and it was clearly not a real DCI case but they sent her as a precaution ... ie to cover themselves legally. If it is a real case, then, let's say 99.99% of the time, either standards were broken and/or there was an accident.

Diving is not a dangerous sport. There are risks associated with diving, but it is not dangerous.

I found a study that looks at sport injuries and deaths.

Here is an australian report on different sport injuries.
[url=http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/8/573.full[/url]

and a table of the numbers
Incidence of serious injury and death during sport and recreation activities in Victoria, Australia -- -- British Journal of Sports Medicine

Here is a different one that shows the sports with the highest rates of injuries.
Dencorub - Sport injury statistics in Australia

Scuba diving is under "other" and there were no deaths related to scuba diving in the study.

A lot of "normal everyday sports are clearly more dangerous than diving.

DAN workshop on diving fatalities - a long document but it has a table on PADI certification statistics that show over a 10 year period there were over 40.7 million certification dives and 193 fatalities. (p 138). 40 million dive, fewer than 200 fatalities, ...

That is a pretty safe sport.

https://d35gjurzz1vdcl.cloudfront.ne...roceedings.pdf

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Koojo

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Koojo

Originally Posted by TLansford

Originally Posted by Sir Wilson

That's not how incredibly well informed argument or debate works matey, you make a statement then it is incumbent on you to back it up, not on others to disprove it.

First, I shared information.
Then I backed it up.
Others seem to think it is not true.
They can come with some information now.

That is how it works.

And I'm not your "matey"

How exactly did you back it up?

Did you read the post?

3 course directors ...

Funny guy huh.
You simply telling us (3) guys told you so, doesn't really qualify as backing anything up.

It is hardly what you describe. ... "3 guys told me so".

Do you know what a course director is/does? I'm beginning to have my doubts.

**Cujo** · 09-10-2012, 11:10 PM

It's still just on your say so that they said so.
You need to quote or link to the relevant legislation.
THAT would be backing it up.

**TLansford** · 09-10-2012, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by Koojo

It's still just on your say so that they said so.
You need to quote or link to the relevant legislation.
THAT would be backing it up.

whatever

**TizMe** · 09-10-2012, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by TLansford

What I said was indeed true. If it occurs it means that the diver was not following his or her training. By definition, recreational diving is done within extremely conservative limits.

No it is indeed not true.

I actually know quite a bit about DCS. Learnt after some unpleasant time spent in a recompression chamber.

Almost any dive profile can result in DCS, no matter how safe it seems and regardless if the diver is following his or her training.

My particular dive was recorded by my dive computer and studied by the medical professionals that where treating me.

I was an experienced diver, having done many more less conservative, longer, deeper and more frequent dives than on this particular day. They were amazed. It was a single, conservative dive. For some unknown reason, I became ill.

DAN statistics:
Decompression illness occurs in approximately 1,000 U.S. scuba divers each year.

**dirtydog** · 09-10-2012, 11:29 PM

Dive shops always want more work permits, dive shops have always stressed dive masters need English as a first language, ie another work permit, course guides could have beeen discussed with the labour dept and they may have thought it a good idea from the safety aspect of it all, a farang to blame etc, labour dept doesn't make law so may have only suggested it.

**TLansford** · 10-10-2012, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by TizMe

Originally Posted by TLansford

What I said was indeed true. If it occurs it means that the diver was not following his or her training. By definition, recreational diving is done within extremely conservative limits.

No it is indeed not true.

I actually know quite a bit about DCS. Learnt after some unpleasant time spent in a recompression chamber.

Almost any dive profile can result in DCS, no matter how safe it seems and regardless if the diver is following his or her training.

My particular dive was recorded by my dive computer and studied by the medical professionals that where treating me.

I was an experienced diver, having done many more less conservative, longer, deeper and more frequent dives than on this particular day. They were amazed. It was a single, conservative dive. For some unknown reason, I became ill.

DAN statistics:
Decompression illness occurs in approximately 1,000 U.S. scuba divers each year.

1000 DCS per year from and estimated 3 million dives gives you a 0.03% incident rate of DCS - not something that should scare potential divers away from the sport.

Your situation, unexpected DCS is even more rare. Your point is correct, however, and that is an exception to my statement.

**Likeki** · 15-10-2012, 11:13 PM

I have seen first hand how most rental gear is cared for in Thailand. There are exceptions of course but not worth the risk to me. I will only dive my own gear in Thailand AND will only dive with an outfit that I have seen where and how they jam tanks. Additionally I will only dive with a dive buddy I know and can count on. Comments like "no big deal your only diving to 35 feet" are even more disturbing! Most dive related accidents occur between 10 feet and the surface. Complacency Kills. Just my 2 cents.

**TLansford** · 16-10-2012, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Likeki

I have seen first hand how most rental gear is cared for in Thailand. There are exceptions of course but not worth the risk to me. I will only dive my own gear in Thailand AND will only dive with an outfit that I have seen where and how they jam tanks. Additionally I will only dive with a dive buddy I know and can count on. Comments like "no big deal your only diving to 35 feet" are even more disturbing! Most dive related accidents occur between 10 feet and the surface. Complacency Kills. Just my 2 cents.

You have some good points.

I dive with my own gear too, but then I have my own gear. Not everyone does and to be honest, if you go to a reputable dive base, the gear will be in pretty reasonable condition. It will be well used, for sure, but should be OK. On KT the regulators at any given dive base will go through hundreds of dives every year, but they get checked and maintained, too.

IMO, for people who understand what they are looking at, your point about looking at how the tanks are filled and handled is a good one. As for the rest of the kit, the reg is the most important. And even if the diver doesn't know what they are looking at in the dive base, every diver should know how to check his own gear before going in the water.

Knowing and trusting your dive buddy is great. But that doesn't mean that you can't dive safely with some one you just met. I dived with the same buddy for a long time but I also dive with strangers all the time. What many people never learn how to do well, IMO, is to have a good dive briefing with their buddy. It doesn't need to be long, it just needs to cover the basics. This is a great out-of-the-water skill that can avoid a lot of problems even when there are no issues with the gear, and especially when there are issues with the gear.

And you are right, it doesn't matter how deep you go. Something like 80% of all diving related drownings occur after the diver has reached the surface.

**ShilohJim** · 16-10-2012, 06:18 AM

Geez, I thought I maybe would like to take up Scuba diving but after reading all these posts I think I'll just keep riding my Honda Shadow and drinking beer in dark dingy bars!

Shiloh Jim

**sabang** · 16-10-2012, 06:46 AM

Back to the OP- no, if you have to ask the question then you can't afford it.

**TLansford** · 16-10-2012, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by ShilohJim

Geez, I thought I maybe would like to take up Scuba diving but after reading all these posts I think I'll just keep riding my Honda Shadow and drinking beer in dark dingy bars!

Shiloh Jim

yes, that is much safer

**dirk diggler** · 24-10-2012, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by TizMe

PADI stands for Put Another Dollar In.

Mine is NAUI what does that stand for

[/QUOTE]

Not Actually Usable Internationally

**dirk diggler** · 24-10-2012, 08:50 PM

well i fucked that up

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