Car Battery Charging.

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 07:20 PM

Anyone know a really straightforward way to charge a car battery here?

In the UK, you never needed to change a car battery, the car fell apart from rust before the battery went.

Here, probably due to the heat, a battery seems to last less than three years.

I have come across a problem over the last few months, that if the car has been standing a day or two and you go to crank it over...you just get a few clicks, then it usually turns and fires up, but it is not healthy. Like a really slow cranking, and all the dashboard lights dim...and you kind of pray!

I am on my 4th battery, there are no shorts or electrical problems, as far as I know.

Once the engine has started and is warm, it flies over, never fails to start.

I have a battery charger that has 6V, 12V 18V and 24V, it also has a current selector, that ranges from 1 Amperes to 10Amperes in 1 Ampere steps.

If I connect the charger and set it to anything over about 4 Amperes, the charger needle goes off the scale (over 10 Amperes) and the battery fizzes like buggery!

If I step it down to one or two Amperes, the needle registers Zilch!

Please tell me my battery is not fucked again!

I looked up a few things on the internet but to be honest most of the posts contradicted themselves.

Basically, all I want to know is, what is the best way to charge a car battery...slowly on a trickle of 1 or 2 Amperes, or use a bit more power like 4-6 Amperes, and then after doing this, how to tell if the battery is shagged again!

Thanks!

**klong toey** · 27-12-2009, 07:31 PM

Normally best to charge slowly on a trickle,are you sure your starter motor is not sticking and your alternator is ok.Check the fan belt to make sure its not slipping,make sure the alternator is charging the battery.

**S Landreth** · 27-12-2009, 07:34 PM

Tell us some stuff,…………

Is it a maintenance free battery (no caps on top of the battery)? Or does it have about 6 caps on top of the battery That you have to check every once in a while to make sure there is water in each cell?

I suspect it’s not a maintenance free battery, because they are a little hard to come by here in Thailand.

**Marmite the Dog** · 27-12-2009, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by S Landreth

I suspect it’s not a maintenance free battery, because they are a little hard to come by here in Thailand.

Except for all the new cars in the last 6 or 7 years that they've been fitted to.

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

If I connect the charger and set it to anything over about 4 Amperes, the charger needle goes off the scale (over 10 Amperes) and the battery fizzes like buggery! If I step it down to one or two Amperes, the needle registers Zilch!

Check the water levels if you can (use distilled water to top up) and charge it out of the car. A trickle charger is better than a full blast, so 2 amps on 12v over night should so it. There may be indicators on the charger telling you the perceived health of your battery too.

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by klong toey

Normally best to charge slowly on a trickle,are you sure your starter motor is not sticking and your alternator is ok.Check the fan belt to make sure its not slipping,make sure the alternator is charging the battery.

I thought slow was better too, but the alternator is fine, I am getting about 14.7 V when the motor is running...the starter motor is actually what I think may be the problem.. the belts aren't slipping for sure..( The starter on these things looks pretty piss poor, tiny for the job concerned)

I was hoping it wasn't the starter, but you seem to think the same as me...bugger!

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Tell us some stuff,…………

Is it a maintenance free battery (no caps on top of the battery)? Or does it have about 6 caps on top of the battery That you have to check every once in a while to make sure there is water in each cell?

I suspect it’s not a maintenance free battery, because they are a little hard to come by here in Thailand.

No it isn't at all maintenance free, it is the usual heavy duty top up and pray battery, it has the little caps you need to unscrew and fill with distillate every couple of weeks, and about the fourth generation at that! (There are no maintenance free batteries around here!) I think it is a GPK or similar..it's a big lump 165A/H or similar..it's on a 3 litre motor.. the previous Toyota Battery lasted less than a year as I neglected it and it went dry.

The one before that fell off its little shelf and was rubbed away by friction of the belts until it leaked everywhere.

The one before that broke after I crashed the thing into a ditch in a drunken stupour!

**S Landreth** · 27-12-2009, 07:57 PM

^ good! You are checking the water levels. So it might not be a dead/bad cell.

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Originally Posted by S Landreth

I suspect it’s not a maintenance free battery, because they are a little hard to come by here in Thailand.

Except for all the new cars in the last 6 or 7 years that they've been fitted to.

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

If I connect the charger and set it to anything over about 4 Amperes, the charger needle goes off the scale (over 10 Amperes) and the battery fizzes like buggery! If I step it down to one or two Amperes, the needle registers Zilch!

Check the water levels if you can (use distilled water to top up) and charge it out of the car. A trickle charger is better than a full blast, so 2 amps on 12v over night should so it. There may be indicators on the charger telling you the perceived health of your battery too.

Cheers, I normally run a charger on one or two Amperes overnight, (The Charger is useless, it just pumps current, no real inidicators, but I am starting to think it is either the starter or the solenoid...you get thei "click" "click" "click", then sometimes it turns over perfectly, or other times it really cranks slowly, and all the lights on the dash dim..as if it is taking a lot of juice to turn it over...like a short in the starter...once the engine has fired up, there is no problem, so I am begginning to shy away from the battery. (The problem I have here is, if I pop into the local shops here - they are fucking thieving vagabonds and will lie through their arses as to the problem...they know the "FARANG" and just want some easy cash!

**blackgang** · 27-12-2009, 08:23 PM

Damn, and that was just getting interesting.
If a battery is made in Thailand, what makes you think it should be good for a year or more??
2 Years is tops for a battery about anywhere in the world.
Clean and tight connectors is a must, I really like it when they drive the connectors on with a hammer.
A 14.5 charging Voltage is a min reading when charging and can go as high as 18, as resistance in battery increases then charge rate decreases.
what is the reading when you first switch on the key, should be over 12. if it drops below 10 when cranking then you have a weak battery, or a bad starter.
needing water often means you have to much charging voltage and is boiling water from your battery as a battery should lose no water below 15.3 volts charging.

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

Damn, and that was just getting interesting.
If a battery is made in Thailand, what makes you think it should be good for a year or more??
2 Years is tops for a battery about anywhere in the world.
Clean and tight connectors is a must, I really like it when they drive the connectors on with a hammer.
A 14.5 charging Voltage is a min reading when charging and can go as high as 18, as resistance in battery increases then charge rate decreases.
what is the reading when you first switch on the key, should be over 12. if it drops below 10 when cranking then you have a weak battery, or a bad starter.
needing water often means you have to much charging voltage and is boiling water from your battery as a battery should lose no water below 15.3 volts charging.

Maybe in your day you old dinosaur.. POSITIVE EARTH Etc. in the UK I have had car batteries last more than 15 years!!! It is the heat here that kills them, and the SHIT quality that the Thais ACCEPT!

I don't have a Voltmeter in the dash so I wouldn't know about cranking voltages...in fact, (correct me someone if I am wrong) I bet you can buy a car battery in the UK with a FIVE year warranty...I can't spell garantee!!!!

Take the average SHIT quality Thai Battery down to the temperatures we have in the Norht at the moment - early morings...and the battery is SHITE.

In the UK/US in the winter, this really would not be acceptable...but this is Thailand.

And in 40 years I have never seen 18V on a battery charger( at least on a one that worked!)...must be a special thing for Amish or those good folk from Utah....they can redefine physics!

And Ambient temperature plays a fair bit into this too... it is very different charging a redneck battery in North carolina at 0 degrees as opposed to charging a slope/zipper head battery at 40C

**Looper** · 27-12-2009, 08:32 PM

Get your alternator checked out too.

If the alternator is putting out more than about 14.5v then it could be the reason your batteries keep getting fried. Although some alternators are computer controlled to output a higher boost charge (up to about 15.5v) for the first 5 minutes so best to measure it after that.

**Missismiggins** · 27-12-2009, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Looper

Get your alternator checked out too.

If the alternator is putting out more than about 14.5v then it could be the reason your batteries keep getting fried. Although some alternators are computer controlled to output a higher boost charge (up to about 15.5v) for the first 5 minutes so best to measure it after that.

Ok, thanks, will have a look at it this week! (When it lets me down in a really embarrrasing situation! - like when the wife and kid have to get out and push!)

**crippen** · 27-12-2009, 09:38 PM

Check all connections to the earth(chassis) and the starter motor,both thick wires.Sometimes ,a bit of corrosion in a joint can form quite a high resistance,which prevents the high current required to start the car.This fault is most common where different metals meet,ie steel to aluminium.Be careful about the water you top a battery up with..The slightist amount of salt ruins a battery pronto,as does chlorine!

**tsicar** · 27-12-2009, 10:21 PM

miggins.
if your alty is charging the battery, all the terminals and connections are ok (clean and tight), chances are you have a dead cell and it is time for ANOTHER new one.
you could also have something drawing power after the car has been switched off, so it is ok while you are using the car but will drain power overnight.
get a load test done on the battery.
you can check for a dead cell yourself by applying a load and checking if one or more cells fizzes or bubbles (that's the fukt one): switch on headlamps, wipers and anything else you can think of and get someone to crank the motor while you peer down the holes to check for streams of bubbles.
if you disconnect and reconnect the battery with everything switched off and yoiu get a small spark on reconnecting, you can be sure something is drawing power .
these are about the only two checks for dummies without multimeters that i can think of, but they are totally reliable.

...........besides, if your wife is prepared to get out and push-start, i can't see why you would need to replace the battery even if it IS poked!

**blackgang** · 27-12-2009, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

in the UK I have had car batteries last more than 15 years!!! It is the heat here that kills them,

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

Take the average SHIT quality Thai Battery down to the temperatures we have in the Norht at the moment

These 2 posts you countradict yourself. They have no cold temps in Thailand, and they actuall have no hot termps in Thailand either, they have warm humid temps in Thailand.
And there never was an automotive battery in usage for any period of close to 15 years. Industrial with proper care, but not an automotive battery. The lead on the batterys plates is not heavy enough to last that long, as a battery is charged and discharged thru usage the lead is used off the plates, thats why cheap batterys are cheap, less lead.

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

And in 40 years I have never seen 18V on a battery charger( at least on a one that worked!)...must be a special thing for Amish or those good folk from Utah....they can redefine physics!

Not 18V as a setting but on a volt meter you might see it going to 18 early on in the charge as you will see on an indash Volt meter

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

And Ambient temperature plays a fair bit into this too... it is very different charging a redneck battery in North carolina at 0 degrees as opposed to charging a slope/zipper head battery at 40C

Ambient temp has nothing to do with the resistance in the electrolyte in a battery, nothing at all, but the charging rate will cause a battery to boil as the resistance increases so therefore the charging rate decreases and a battery will not boil and lose water at less than 15.3 volts chargeing rate, that is the rate that is maintained for 8 hours at least once a year to equalize cells in a large storage system and no water is lost

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

I thought slow was better too, but the alternator is fine, I am getting about 14.7 V when the motor is running...

You said that you have no way of knowing what Voltage you have, but still with the 14.7 that you have dreamed up is exactly what you need to maintain a charge of 12.5 volts per cell in a 12V storage battery.

Originally Posted by Looper

If the alternator is putting out more than about 14.5v then it could be the reason your batteries keep getting fried. Although some alternators are computer controlled to output a higher boost charge (up to about 15.5v) for the first 5 minutes so best to measure it after that.

Quite a bit more than 15.5 because at that voltage you amps going in are very little more than 1.5 or less.

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

I don't have a Voltmeter in the dash so I wouldn't know about cranking voltages...in fact, (correct me someone if I am wrong) I bet you can buy a car battery in the UK with a FIVE year warranty...I can't spell garantee!!!!

Pobly can, I know for awhile you could buy a Sears Die Hard Battery with a 4 year warranty, but few would make it that far, but with the high price of the battery and with the use pro rated as to cost, it was worth it to sell the battery with such a long warranty as it didn't take many to make a profit.

Little story.
I had a 2000 AH bank of 6 batterys( 335# each) for my house system, I also had a special built alternator that was rated at 150 amps and took 15 HP gasoline 1 cyl. engine to turn that alternator at 800 rpm, and when I would start the charge it would put out 135 amps at 18 volts and as the batterys took amps they would decrease and the engine would not be working as hard and after a few hours the amps would be down to less than 15 amps and I would shut down the engine, so as yo can see, it does take Volts to push amps into a battery and volts are what is the important thing in charging,, a 12 volt battery will not ovderheat at 14.5 volts and will not get a 12.5 Volt charge at 12 volts either.

**Bung** · 27-12-2009, 10:38 PM

Check that the alternator doesn't get warm to the touch when left standing as this would indicate the diode in it is blown and the windings inside are draining your battery.

**zubber** · 27-12-2009, 11:32 PM

my battery is 8 years old now and had coped with the harsh UK winters and is always quick to start .no top ups so far ,never looked at it at all.
it must be the Thai heat thats fvcked it

**Monsoon** · 28-12-2009, 12:01 AM

Missismiggins,

The correct and only way of testing a lead acid battery is when it is fully charged.

Therefore the battery should be disconnected from the vehicle and connected to a charger. Battery manufacturers would like to see as little amps go to the battery as possible, however few people can wait a week for a battery to be charged, so the maximum a battery should be charged at is 5 amps. If you have a half decent charger it should charge the battery and as the voltage rises the amps will drop on the meters on the charger. On this kind of charger a battery can be charged indefinitely as it will eventually charge in milliamps causing no harm to your battery.

How long will this take? Depends on how flat the battery is, and can take up to two or three days.

The voltage will rise quickly and at a voltage of (2.3 volts per cell) 13.8 volts the battery will start to gas. (Make bubbles in the cells). This will continue until the battery is fully charged which should be at (2.6 volts per cell) 15.6 volts.

However the real way to make sure the battery is full is by measuring the specific gravity of the cells. This tells you how much acid has been removed from the plates within the cells. This process takes far longer than the rise of the voltage does. Your specific gravity readings should be about 1.260 depending on how old your battery is. To do this test you will need a Hydrometer, preferably calibrated at 25 degrees ambient temperature.

After the charging process the battery should be disconnected from the charger and left for minimum of three hours and then voltage should be taken again. This is called “float voltage” and should be (2.1 volts per cell) 12.6 volts. The specific gravity readings should remain at the 1.260 level.

The next step is to “load test” the battery. This is done by a machine with a built in resister which can be adjusted to the rated amps of the battery for a maximum period of 5 seconds. During this process the cells should be checked to see if there is any indication of internal shorts which will cause bubbling in a faulty cell. Should the battery pass this test it will be ready to go.

OK that was the correct way to test a battery, but I hear you say that you do not have a Hydrometer or a load tester. You will need a voltmeter or you will have to take the word of the dealer when he says your battery is shot, not that he has any idea of how to test a battery in most cases.

Charge your battery for as long as you can.
Check the voltage whilst on charge for 15.6 volts.
Take it off charge for three hours and check the voltage again for a voltage of about 12.6 volts.
Do not try to load test the battery with a piece of bare wire by shorting the positive and negative poles. DO NOT. You will burn your hands and even cause the battery to explode.
Provided the above is all OK, place the battery back in the car and connect.
Try to start the car. If it starts immediately, you will be good to go.
If it does not start immediately, get someone to start the car while you look into the cells of the battery. If you see any sign of bubbles or even some black smoke in any of the cells it will indicate an internal short and you will have to buy a new battery.

At this point you should be sure of the condition of your car battery. Should all be OK with the battery then and only then can you start to investigate the reason for the battery going flat.

Why does a battery go flat? There are more than 250 reasons so it would take a process of elimination. If the vehicle is not used very often or does very short runs this might cause the battery to go flat over a period of time and no amount of testing is going to show this problem.

Note, once a battery goes flat it has to be taken out and charged. The alternator is not designed to charge the battery and has a voltage regulator setting of 14.2 volts on older vehicles and 14.8 volts on the latest models, which is not enough to charge the battery; it is only designed as a top up tool.

Some of the advice given is correct i.e. clean terminals etc.

No lead acid battery is maintenance free or sealed. Pull off the sticker on the top of the battery and you will find the vent caps to open and see inside the cells.

The 18 volts on your charger allows you to charge 3 x 12volt batteries at the same time connected in series.

Heat is the greatest enemy of the battery and can drastically reduce the life span of the battery.

15 years for a car battery is not too uncommon, however most cases have been reported to have been in the VW Beetle where the battery is situated under the back seat and not next to the manifold.

Hope you find the info useful and I wish you luck.

**paranha** · 28-12-2009, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Missismiggins

Originally Posted by klong toey

Normally best to charge slowly on a trickle,are you sure your starter motor is not sticking and your alternator is ok.Check the fan belt to make sure its not slipping,make sure the alternator is charging the battery.

I thought slow was better too, but the alternator is fine, I am getting about 14.7 V when the motor is running...the starter motor is actually what I think may be the problem.. the belts aren't slipping for sure..( The starter on these things looks pretty piss poor, tiny for the job concerned)

I was hoping it wasn't the starter, but you seem to think the same as me...bugger!

There you have it...

That's the problem. You're toasting the battery. Speed charge of a battery shall never exceed 14,4 V on a 12V battery. Else it's toast.
A car alternator shouldn't give more than 13,8 V tops for charging since it has no need of a speed charge.

Check your voltage regulator. Most prolly it's fc-uked

EDIT:
-----
Very easy to check. Use a voltage meter on the battery poles. It shall NEVER exceed 14,4 V A broken voltage regulator vill give way more than that when idling. If you check the meter when revving you can experience more than 18 volts on the charging current. No wonder your batteries gets toasted

**Bung** · 28-12-2009, 01:06 AM

14.7 is ok

**paranha** · 28-12-2009, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bung

14.7 is ok

NO WAY!

Check the recommendations from the battery producer and check up what you have learned earlier. You WILL toast a normal lead battery when the voltage exceeds 2,4V per cell. That will say 14,4V on a 12V battery.

If you prove me wrong, I'll say: "I'm sorry" but I think I won't do it in this case.

Regards

**Bung** · 28-12-2009, 03:03 AM

14.7 is the max voltage a charger should put in a discharged battery. Will drop to 13.8 at trickle or fully charged state. a car alternator will put 14.7 into a battery if it is flat. Seen it many times myself.

For example:

performancebatteries

Step 1 Charger output voltage

Determining the charger output voltage is the most important step in the charger qualification process. If the voltage output from the charger is less than 14.2V or more than 15V for a 12V battery do not use the charger. For 24V battery systems the charger output voltage should be between 28.4V and 30V. If the charger output voltage falls within these voltage limits when the battery approaches a fully charged state, proceed to Step 2; otherwise pick another charger.
Step 2 Charger type — automatic or manual

The two broad types of small, portable chargers available today are classified as either automatic or manual. Automatic chargers can be further classified as those that charge the battery up to a certain voltage and then shut off and those that charge the battery up to a certain voltage and then switch to a lower float (trickle) voltage.
An example of the first type of automatic charger is one that charges a battery up to 14.7V, then immediately shuts off. An example of the second type of automatic charger would bring the battery up to 14.7V then switch to a float (trickle) voltage of 13.6V; it will stay at that level indefinitely. The second type of automatic charger is preferred as the first type of charger is likely to undercharge the battery.
A manual charger typically puts out a single voltage or current level continuously and has to be manually switched off to prevent battery overcharge. Should you choose to use a manual charger with your ODYSSEY® battery, do not exceed charge times suggested in Table III below.
(B) Selecting battery type on your charger output

While it is not possible to cover every type of battery charger available today in a product guide such as this, this section will try to give the ODYSSEY® battery user some general charger usage guidelines to follow, after the charger has been qualified for use with this battery.
In general, do not use either the gel cell or maintenance free setting, if provided on your charger. Choose the deep cycle or AGM option, should there be one on your charger. Table III below provides suggestions on charge times based on charger currents. For maximum life from your ODYSSEY® battery, after completing the charge time in Table III, we recommend that you switch your charger to the 2A trickle charge position and leave the battery connected to the charger for an additional six to eight hours.

**blackgang** · 28-12-2009, 07:38 AM

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ

Not all batterys or charging systems were built for the same things, I have made 3 or 4 different ones for different uses and results.
as chargers are built to sell to a certain customer base then they are not specialty items and all pretty well do the same thing and not always at their most efficent.
no dead battery is hurt by 16 or 18 volts but that can not be carried on to long or overheating will happen, but by the heavy charge of voltage will also desulfate the plates and open more lead to the acid.
with the correct regulator you can make a battery charge quicker with less damage to the battery and with a finer and faster final top charge.
My bank of Phone Jars would take a 150 amp initial charge of 18 volts recommended, but as cell voltage came up and heat was added it would also self regulate down, and I could run my house a month with only 2 hours of sun in a day with sunup daylight at 10.00 and sunset at 1430 daily and 1 hour of generator time a month.
And my jars were 12 years old when I bought them and had never had water added.

But I suppose I should add here as some folks do not even understand the car they drive, let alone other things that use electricity too.
So for the auto owner, then a top voltage has now been set at 14.7 as Ford used to be 15.3, but because of computers and other electronic uses of automobile cigarette lighter adapters there has been electronics that will not stand over 14.7 volts max. so that is what you should be paying attention to and not the ultra max in charging systems for the main power supplies.

**paranha** · 28-12-2009, 02:50 PM

^^I stand a little corrected there bung :-) . I was speaking of regular lead acid batteries stuffed inside the cars. Not maintenance free ones or other special batteries.

But Missmiggins listed several problems with his batteries.
- Very short battery life
- 14,7 V when the engine is idling
- Battery cells drying out.

In short how I learned it: The battery gets fried by the charge voltage and the voltage regulator on the alternator is the sinner.

Charging the lead-acid battery

**Marmite the Dog** · 28-12-2009, 03:33 PM

Fek me! Just been quoted nearly 4,000 Baht for a battery for my bike. It is a maintenance free one, but I'm wondering if it is worth paying 3x more than a standard battery?

They only seem to last 2 years regardless.

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