Learning to speak Thai.

[toddaniels]

I'll be the first to agree, learning thai especially as an adult comin' from an english speakin' country is a tough row to hoe. I mean you'll invest hours and HOURS with very little "bang-4-the-baht" in terms of return on investment. It takes a LONG time to get even semi proficient and most people fall off the learning thai train before that happens.

I don't know that I've EVER met another foreigner who spoke thai yet I considered "fluent". I believe fluent is an imaginary place in your mind or in the minds of people who can't speak thai for shit.. It's a mythical term which is bandied about with little idea what it really means..

I mean can you go to the hospital and talk to the doctor in thai about an upcoming brain surgery operation? Can you go to thai court and interact with the attorney's about a case before the judge? Both those things require very different vocabulary and ways of speaking, yet being able to do either still doesn't mean you're fluent. I think you should strive to be "fluid" when you speak. Don't pause at the wrong time, don't hem-n-haw looking for words, etc. That's what makes a foreigner a proficient thai speaker.

You as a non-native speaker of thai are NEVER gonna fool a thai for even a second into thinkin' you're a born-bred-rice fed thai speaker. No matter how much these over complimentary people praise your thai! You're always gonna have some "tell" where they know you're a foreigner speaking thai. It just is what it is. Don't waste a second of your life on it.

As far as the phrase ฝรั่งรู้มาก. It is spoken because the tiger, errr I mean the thai-gurl you're speaking to knows you aren't a ไก่อ่อน gài ɔ̀ɔn soft chicken or "spring chicken" (newbie, easy mark) and instead you know a thing or two about what's what here.

I hardly hear it but I always snap back with คิดว่ารู้มากดีกว่าไม่รู้อะไรเลย ไม่ใช่รึ "I think that knowing a lot's better than not knowing anything, isn't that right?" That's a really snarky come back and will stop almost any thai cold in their tracks!

There is a very narrow demographic of thai woman which doesn't want their foreign b/f or husband to speak/understand thai. If you ever run into it, it should raise HUGE red flagz with you immediately!

Most rank-n-file thaiz are happy as pigs in shit that you can interact with them in thai and don't compel them to speak what passes for engrish.. As I said, I've yet to run into a thai when I was tryin' to get something accomplished who wasn't happy I could conduct business with them in thai. Even my "version of thai", which sounds surprisingly like a hillbilly from Ohio speaking thai, (possibly because I am a hillbilly from Ohio) who just happens to understand/speak thai too! I had to learn thai to live here because I don't have a "long-haired talking thai dictionary" following me around 24/7 translating what I need to say to thaiz in thai. It was learn to speak thai or die.

Oh, here's one, if a thai gurl says that ฝรั่งรู้มาก to you, try เป็นไก่แก่หนังเหนียว ไม่ใช่ไก่อ่อน "I'm an old chicken with tough skin, not a soft chicken." Both ไก่อ่อน gài ɔ̀ɔn (greenhorn) and ไก่แก่หนังเหนียว gài gɛ̀ɛ nǎng nǐao (seasoned vet, experienced) are comparatives every thai in this country knows. (sorry I don't have the karaoke for that one, but it's a good sentence). .

[beerlaodrinker]

Good on ya Todd, you always put things in perspective. I'm envious and a bit jealous of your linguistic ability, for sure it didn't come easy, you've put the hard yards in. Been in Laos 9 Years now and my Lao is still, Basic, despite having a Lao wife who would like nothing better than me to converse in Lao, she speaks English well so I guess I'm just a lazy fuk, I did start to get right into learning it at work because the company had a program for expats to study, it went great for a while and we had some really good Lao instructors teaching us everyday street talk, then some fucker changed the format, so now I can instruct the Lao workers to wear a hard hat/safety boots and fill out a job safety analysis form etc , great at work but I wanted to know the nitty gritty not all that shit, kind of lost interest now, I haven't written it of yet, I just accept it's going to take me longer , curiously though , I know a lot of Lao words so when I hear it I can usually get the gist of it, just can't articulate a decent response in Lao

[Mr Earl]

just can't articulate a decent response in Lao

But if ya had to, I reckon you could, It's not like they have any complex grammar. It's mostly in the tones and how you grunt. You can grunt can't ya? To order a Mickey D's cheeseburger only requires a single grunt. Two grunts two cheeseburgers.
I spent about a year at the Union Language school learning how to grunt!

To be fair Thai is more sing-song kinda like twittering birds.

[toddaniels]

Sadly, "Mr Earl" it appears the 'about a year at the Union Language school" didn't really pay off that much for you.. Thai is a far more subtle, far more descriptive and far more complex language in regards to structure than engrish is. There are so many ways to say the same thing in thai, yet each one conveys a slightly different "feel" to the listener. About the only thing you did get right is the musical quality to thai due to the tones in the language seperating WORDS, as opposed to providing emotional value to what's being said like in engrish..

Unfortunately, most foreigners won't invest the time it takes to gain this degree of proficiency in the language. Because, believe me it takes TIME! Tonz and TONZ of it.

I have beat my head against the wall that learning the thai language is for the last 7+ years.. While I do review thai language schools in bangkok and write about my trials and tribulations learning thai, for my friends website (shameless plug), almost all my thai was self taught.

I don't regularly attend any thai language classes, mostly because I realized the suagary sweet, over the top, too polite version of thai being "spoon-fed" to foreigners in language schools bore no resemblance to how thaiz speak thai to each other day-in-day-out.

I routinely buy the thai language versions of Maxim, FHM, Playboy, Penthouse, Mix, Rush, and even Women's Health once in a while, because it teaches vocabulary you'd NEVER ever get from a thai language school or even a semi-competent thai teacher. They just won't "go there"..

Like I always say, I'm just a dumb hillbilly from Ohio, so I know if I can speak something which resembles thai close enough for thaiz to understand me and answer in kind, ANYONE who wants to can too! You just have to want it bad enough..

Good luck learning thai.

[Humbert]

^ I agree with Tod. I never took a course but read and studied for many, many years before even moving to Thailand. In Bangkok I worked in a Thai architectural design office where most of the staff level associates and office support staff spoke only Thai. I attended countless meetings conducted in Thai and over time picked up a level of 'fluency' and a very good vocabulary.

[Bettyboo]

Todd speaks some sense and some total bolloks about language, imho... He has learnt it well and made it his business, good on him, I certainly respect that. But, his arrogance, using terms such as 'retard Thai', etc, is rather borish...

As far as Thai being '...far more subtle, far more descriptive and far more complex language in regards to structure than engrish is.' and other such comments, tell it to Shakespeare, Dickens, etc. The Thai language is limited by the same power mechanisms that control the entire nation, Thai kids are far behind others in their language and cognitive skills at all ages through the schooling system; Thai kids learning/being schooled in English are different, their cognitive development is massively advanced compared to Thai 'Thai' kids. The language has been used at the forefront of social framing and limiting the masses, like many languages, with the likes of the 'Ministry of Culture' and certain high ranking folks forcing their power upon the language to limit the people (of course, rather ironically, they use a different language completely to show their 'intelligence'...). The Thai language itself, and the way it is abused, is one of the main problems with the Thai nation.

[beerlaodrinker]

But if ya had to, I reckon you could, It's not like they have any complex grammar. It's mostly in the tones and how you grunt. You can grunt can't ya? To order a Mickey D's cheeseburger only requires a single grunt. Two grunts two cheeseburgers.

Yes, but what if i want fries with that earl ? how many grunts would that take? and how does one grunt in a twittering sing song kinda way. what if i got it wrong and ended up with a Mc flurry instead?

[chassamui]

There is a very narrow demographic of thai woman which doesn't want their foreign b/f or husband to speak/understand thai. If you ever run into it, it should raise HUGE red flagz with you immediately!

Ran into this problem at the very start of my current long haired warrior relationship.
She would end a mobile call, and I would say, "How is your sister". She would say, how do you know I was talking to my sister? Simple really, her tone and Language change as she is conversing in a dialect or accent with which I had become familiar.
When I asked her to help me learn to speak Thai, her response was, "No, you know too much alraedy". (Red flag).
A few years ago we moved to rural Surat and she is constantly surprised by the number and frequency of my contacts with local thai. Mostly business folk I interact with, from the Motosai dealer, IT shop owner to the post office and restaurant owner. Surprise surprise, all these witless business folk in nakhon nowhere want to speak English. Happy to oblige.
I know enough and as BLD suggested, the ease with which we comminicate makes us lazy. Happy to be lazy as who knows when or where we might be next.

[toddaniels]

Don't confuse the "powers-that-be" meaning the dinosaurs entrusted with preserving (read stifling) the thai language; with the 70+ million people using the language every day! They are whores from a different go-go bar, err horses of a different color!

The ease of inter-web access has given rise to a exponential development of the thai language by the thai youth of today. This is a good, in fact a great thing! They change it as they see fit, they are not shoe-horned into thinking it's some magical thing, they don't believe the "propaganda" from the powerz-that-be at all! To them it's just a language and like all languages it either develops and changes based on the needs put on it by the people that use it, or it dies.

Sadly, most thais learn engrish in school from THAIZ, not from native english speakers. Factor in that the thai school system teaches english by rote memorization instead of conversation based. All they're doing is cranking out is a bunch of people who have to think about every permutation of english grammar BEFORE they'll speak. Even then you can't hardly pull what passes for engrish outta these people!

"Bettyboo" I dunno where you're data mining your "Thai kids learning/being schooled in English are different, their cognitive development is massively advanced compared to Thai 'Thai' kids".

The thing is the sampling is SO small compared to the total population of school age children in schools, I could just as easily make the argument "rich thai kids learn better than poor thai kids", by using the same data you quote! That's who's in those schools which teach in engrish. It ain't the rank-n-file-thaiz which make up this country's populace!

In fact, IF we really looked at the problem we'd see it's 100% thai'd, err tied into the way the thai school system is designed and NOT directly related to what language is used in the classrooms.. The thai educational system has been "broken' for a long, long time.. Revamp the way subjects are taught, teach critical thinking, over the collective mentality and I'd bet dollars to durian the language wouldn't even factor in to "cognitive development".

As far as me, well I am who I am! You may perceive it as arrogance, condescension, or what ever.. I on the other hand see it as confidence in myself and in my opinions about thingz.

Like I've told more people than I care to count; "Believe me when I say, I'm NOT talking down to you! I'm tryin' to talk to you on your level. Gimme your hand, I'll pull you up here with me!"

BTW: just so we're clear, I coined the following phrases as far as levels of thai; "2-word-tourist-thai", "retard-thai" and "horse-peak-thai" (whore speak). I mean feel free to use the terms, but remember where they came from

[Bettyboo]

I could just as easily make the argument "rich thai kids learn better than poor thai kids", by using the same data you quote!

Yes you could, and you'd be correct to do so. The system is designed that way; the rich speak English and Chinese (the 'special' group speak French first...), Thai is for the masses, and it is a very poor language for cognitive development.

In fact, IF we really looked at the problem we'd see it's 100% thai'd, err tied into the way the thai school system is designed and NOT directly related to what language is used in the classrooms..

They are two separate elements, both hold down the Thai masses, but make no mistake, the PADites are sending their kids to schools where the teaching is in English, they are banning their kids from watching Thai soaps, etc (whilst sitting on the committees that keep Thai 'traditional'). Language is key here, and Thai is several hundred years behind the likes of English...

[beerlaodrinker]

The 'special ' group speak French first? That seems unlikely, why would they? English is the business language. Even in Laos where they have the French colonial hangover English is still considered 100% more beneficial to study amongst the youth! I've never heard a Thai from any walk of life speaking French Betty. Maybe I haven't struck the uber thai Hi So yet. In Lao it's still only the old timers and young ones on a French scholarship, (rare) but having said that I reckon plenty of Lao are seriously considering speaking Chinese given the fact that they will likely be overrun with them shortly. Not arguing with you Betty just my 2 kips worth see, even added a smiley

[chassamui]

Sadly, most thais learn engrish in school from THAIZ

That's the real problem. They are being badly taught by people who are themselves the product of a failed system. My landlord is a landowner and a retired Thai teacher who, I am reliably informed, taught English. He is hopeless as a teacher because he relied on his land to produce income, and his teaching position for local kudos.

[toddaniels]

I do agree with you Bettyboo..
This language has been due for a major overhaul for a long time. There is no reason in today's day and age that thai has to have 6-T's, 5-K's or 4-S's. That was the way it was designed, to show language origin of where the word came from. However there is very little practical reason to be able to look at how a word is spelled and know whether it was a Pali, Sanskrit, Cambodian, Ancient Thai, or imported american word.

You are also correct insofar as the restrictions thaiz have interacting in in thai are a non-starter. The rigid, "teacher teaches students listen" code is counter productive. A thai student would NEVER EVER raise their hand in class and say, "Umm teacher, I don't understand that, can you go over it again?" This is totally tied into "face". By saying they didn't understand the student could seem stupid and "lose face". By asking the teacher to go over it again or explain it in another way the teacher could be perceived as not being a good teacher and "lose face". So no one EVER raises their hand and everyone exits the classroom with nothing more than the ability to parrot by rote things that have no practical application in the real world.

I think the limitations are more to do with the 'thai' system of education versus a western system than anything else.

I didn't know that ANY school in this country is teaching ป.1 - ม.6 in chinese, unless it's a private school. If it is a private school, those kids have golden chop stickz shoved so far up their asses they don't count for anything in the grand scheme of things; other than being in the "elite my shit doesn't stink" , "do you know who my father is" club.

Every time I meet a person who plays that "I'm not thai, I'm thai-chinese" b/s card; I always say, "How pathetic is that? I mean you're not even 'real thai'." You should see their faces!

I have about equal tolerance for thaiz in uniform, wanna-b-hi-so and hi-so thai-nese. That's to say I am barely tolerant of their attitudes. Last time I checked they sit to shit like everyone else!

I have far more affinity to the rank-n-file thaiz just tryin' to get by raise their families, than I do the "other demographic" of thaiz. Plus there are far more rank-n-file thaiz than there are hi-so'z..

[thaimeme]

Sadly, most thais learn engrish in school from THAIZ

That's the real problem. They are being badly taught by people who are themselves the product of a failed system.

Always been the crutch, as this ill-education [pertaining to English] just cycles itself generation after next. Unqualified "English teachers" at the university level training prospective teachers in that particular field - and they pass it on to the next level and so forth.

Aside from the greater problems that arise from Thais teaching Thais, the authorities are hesitant and fearful to integrate native English speakers [in great numbers] into their English language programs/instruction at the higher training levels.

A most universal trait amongst everyday Thais [educated or not] regarding their comprehension of the language - most are able to read and write fair, but are vacant of understanding the spoken language of communication.

[Bettyboo]

The 'special ' group speak French first?

It's just a power thing, certain groups trying to differentiate themselves from others... English was very similar until quite recently with Latin for the academics and French for the noble classes (who certainly would not have written a letter in the ignorant Germanic English form...). For example, Germanic English has the word house for you and I, whereas the French word maison morphed into mansion for the noble classes to describe their houses. This is standard throughout the English language, and you can look at Thai for the influence of Pali/Sanskrit/Khymer/other roots, etc... I don't know Thai well enough, ask Todd, but all language is a power relationship at its most fundamental...

Many years ago, doing business out of London, the Thais addressed me in French first; this is a very particular group, you understand...

This language has been due for a major overhaul for a long time. There is no reason in today's day and age that thai has to have 6-T's, 5-K's or 4-S's. That was the way it was designed, to show language origin of where the word came from. However there is very little practical reason to be able to look at how a word is spelled and know whether it was a Pali, Sanskrit, Cambodian, Ancient Thai, or imported american word.

The reason is power/control.

You're of course right in your example, it's crazy and really tough for Thai youngsters to master, but is serves a purpose of keeping the simpleton masses aware that they are simpletons, even with their own language; a terrible oppression really (the likes of Foucault elaborates in these areas). Of course, English is able to set them free (to a greater or lesser extent), so is much feared by the power mongers in Thailand, North Korea, China, etc (although they do like to empower themselves through the language...).

[bowie]

This language has been due for a major overhaul for a long time. There is no reason in today's day and age that thai has to have 6-T's, 5-K's or 4-S's. That was the way it was designed, to show language origin of where the word came from. However there is very little practical reason to be able to look at how a word is spelled and know whether it was a Pali, Sanskrit, Cambodian, Ancient Thai, or imported american word.

Well, here you go...

Royal Institute announces simplifications to Thai alphabet

Thailand's Royal Institute (ราชบัณฑิตยสถาน), the government agency charged with promoting the proper use of Standard Thai, announced this morning the first major changes to the basic Thai writing system since the aborted spelling reforms of the Phibunsongkhram administration during World War II.

In a move that mirrors those changes, starting today, ten consonants will become officially obsolete, in addition to the two already no longer used, ฃ ขวด and ฅ คน. The newly retired letters are: ฆ ระฆัง, ฌ เฌอ, ญ หญิง, ฎ ชฎา, ฏ ปฏัก, ฐ ฐาน, ฑ มณโฑ, ฒ ผู้เฒ่า, ณ เณร, and ฬ จุฬา. This brings the total number of defunct consonants to twelve, paring the Thai alphabet down from 44 to 32, which is considered an auspicious number in Thai culture.

The choices, they explained in a press conference this morning, are based on a careful study of letter and word frequency in Thai. Only the least commonly used consonants are being retired, in an effort to boost literacy, without sacrificing the breadth of expression that makes Thai the elegant and diverse language it is.

The consonants ฆ ฌ ญ ฎ ฏ ฐ ฑ ฒ ณ and ฬ are to be replaced with their sound-alike counterparts ค ช ย ด ต ถ ท น and ล. For example, under the reform the word ญาติ will now be spelled ยาติ, ปฏิรูป will become ปติรูป, and so forth.

This announcement was made jointly with the Ministry of Education and the Tourism Authority of Thailand, as part of a new push to reinvigorate the flagging tourism industry. It is believed that the simplifications to the writing system will boost foreign interest in Thailand and the Thai language, which is frequently cited as one of the most difficult languages to learn, in large part due to the complicated script.

All Ministry of Education textbooks are required to be updated within the end of calendar year 2010, and the government is expected to offer tax concessions and other incentives to publishers to help defray the large costs of updating their publications over the next several years. The public sector deadline is longer, set at the end of calendar year 2015.

Whether this initiative will be successful remains to be seen, but clearly this is a huge step for Thailand.





I believe this was released in April of 2009. In fact I'm pretty sure it was April 1ST.






Of course "How do you spell April Fool in Thai?"

rikker.blogspot.com/2009/04/royal-institute-announces.html

[toddaniels]

That was indeed an April Fools joke posted on multiple forums on Apr 1, 2009 !!!

Good one though! It sure got mileage, and the thaiz who can't take ANY jokes about their country or their language came out in droves against it on their own language forums!