Property problem

[nanthicha]

Here's the story so far...
Me and wife have been together with the Thai kids in England 8 years now, them 3 all have British citizenship.
Family all in Don mafai.
Sister has nice Thai house with field near Sakhon Nakhon. (very near town)
Sister sells field part to Thai business person for 150,000 (Mrs x)
Mrs x pays 120,000 but not the last 30,000 as she finds out the house and field are on one deed.
Waiting list to be measured is 9 months
Thai person and sister sign letter selling 'field' to Mrs x when land is split.
This letter lodged with land registry in SN.
Sister then borrows 200,000 from Mrs x offering house part as security
Interest 6000 per month
Security appears to be another 'letter' securing loan against house part of land.
This letter lodged with land registry in SN.
Sister cant afford 6000 payments
Sister calls wife scared of losing house
House part worth about 600,000
We want to buy house part now for 200,000, pay money direct to Mrs x to discharge loan, and let sister live for cheap rent
When they eventually sell house part sister and my wife split profit 50/50
Family have suggested that we lend sister 200,000 and she signs similar letter to be lodged at land registry selling house part to my wife when measured in march 2013
Family are now saying that the two 'letters' that Mrs x has lodged with the land registry prevent my wifes letter being accepted by land registry therefore would just be 'held' by family
As I see it there is no security for our 200,000 loan...sister could sell house part quickly in March 2013 and with it our security or
Sister could borrow from Mrs x again between now and 2013 and again eat away at our security, without our letter being at the land registry I see it as worthless security
Finally, I have known these people for many years and suspect the story is, by and large, true.
If anyone can help, or even point me at a local solicitor or the number for the land registry, I would be grateful
Thanks

Graham

[can123]

The only help I can offer you is to tell you to follow your own instincts. I have had things go wrong in my wife's family. My initial decision based on the facts has always been correct although, so as not to cause offence, I have allowed other actions to take place. I have now decided that I will always be the sole judge of future actions and never allow ill-informed decisions to be made. Certainly, I will seek appropriate help, when I have no personal knowledge, to assist me in my decision making.

You seem to be on the same wavelength as you are seeking proper legal help. I wish you well. Do what you decide to do, not what an uneducated Thai tells you to do.

[david44]

Agree wholeheartedly with above.

[Farangbaba]

I am curious as to what the sister has done with the 320K Baht she received from Mrs X??
Sounds like 'Caveat Emptor' (Buyer beware), time to me.

[Thetyim]

Sister then borrows 200,000 from Mrs x offering house part as security
Interest 6000 per month

Umm....that's 36% p.a.
MrsX is a loan shark and will definitely have back up.
The red flags are waving now, walk away from it.

[nigelandjan]

Feel for you mate ,, knowing the way Thai families are looks like your gonna be dammed if you do or if you don't

All the best

[jamescollister]

Sounds a bit of a strange set up, just too many things that can go pair shaped. What happens if the title can't be split or the land is for farming use only, no building permitted. Do all these letter of intend have any legal status. Seen it here where guy sells land ,bits off paper change hands. When time comes to change titles, sellers name was not on the original land title. Step very carefully or just walk away and buy when you are here to oversee what's happening, Jim

[ltnt]

You never mentioned what kind of land title is held on this property at present? If you go to the land office they will produce the title and the property description via their computer aided graphics department. If you wish to sell off partial or all of this property you must be specific with its description. ie: you're going to need to do another proper property survey via the land office. Ask for a date and submit the proper paperwork plus 3,000 baht. A date will be issued, and you must be present when the survey crew comes to your property. You must furnish grid stakes for the surveyor, bamboo if you wish. You must clear all rubbish and foiledge from your proposed property lines prior to the surveyors visit as well.

Once you have this completed the land office will issue you a "Chanote title," for the property presuming your title is clear and ownership is not clouded. In this case you are living like a mushroom, "in the dark and being fed bullshit."

You cannot do this long distance and your wife and family are simply taking you to the cleaners IMO. Get a good Thai legal adviser and see where this goes. Most likely your SIL has gambled the property away and now all the family is SOL.

Good luck with this mess.

[ltnt]

Just curious; Who presently holds the property title? Family or Mrs. X? If X I think your well and truly fuked.

[nanthicha]

Just curious; Who presently holds the property title? Family or Mrs. X? If X I think your well and truly fuked.

Not easy to get a straight story from LOS but seems deed is in sisters name and Mrs x has attached a letter giving her title to the field section when the land has been measured

[Bettyboo]

OP, you need to buy the loan from Mrs X and get the land registry office letter in your name. Easy.

If you're not using the house then why would you charge the sister rent? Just let her live there until it is sold then agree a percentage share with her - this needs to be done up front and signed... Good luck.

p.s. Never listen to Can321; he is Welsh and seems to know very little about Thailand...

[ltnt]

OP, you need to buy the loan from Mrs X and get the land registry office letter in your name.

Depends on the price, doesn't it Boo? Perhaps Mrs. X has other plans. She currently is in the drivers seat. If the land and house were in the sisters name and she transferred ownership "defacto," to Mrs. X by signing a letter and registering t with the land office then everything is legal as far as Mrs. X is concerned. OP's recourse is like someone wanting to buy a new property in this case and he has to negotiate an acceptable price to Mrs. X. Pretty sad set of circumstances.

[lom]

Family are now saying that the two 'letters' that Mrs x has lodged with the land registry prevent my wifes letter being accepted by land registry therefore would just be 'held' by family

Bullshit, the 2nd letter covering the 200K loan from Mrsx should be revoked, nullified, when the loan is paid back and then there is nothing preventing your mrs to register a similar one.

[Bettyboo]

Depends on the price, doesn't it Boo? Perhaps Mrs. X has other plans.

Yes, it does sound like a set-up from the start, by Mrs X - she'll likely turn out to be a very unpleasant individual.

the 2nd letter covering the 200K loan from Mrsx should be revoked, nullified, when the loan is paid back

This has some sense to it. Maybe more details are required though.

[ltnt]

he 2nd letter covering the 200K loan from Mrsx should be revoked, nullified, when the loan is paid back and then there is nothing preventing your mrs to register a similar one.

I am not in full agreement with you on this as Mrs. X sets the terms of payment in this case unless I'm mistaken. If in the letter she, Mrs. X agrees to return the property lien to the OP's SIL for a specified sum and it is paid in full, then they jointly must transfer back the property in question to the SIL. However should the Mrs. X person not agree to terms or amount due then its a negotiated debt.

I have personally received letters on loans to Thai people in exchange for their signed letter using their property as collateral. I know I could never enforce such a letter however it was effective form of face in many cases. I did receive all my loan support back 100%. I never charged interest nor did I have to chase the debtor. Just lucky I guess.

[Thaihome]

The way I understand it Mrs. X is holding liens totaling 320,000 baht against the land. She is collecting 6,000 baht a month interest on those loans. For you to buy the land, you will need to clear the liens. Mrs. X is not going to let you buy out the loans for less than the principle (320k) plus interest (9 months x 6k = 54k) for a total of 374k.

You will need to give Mrs. X 374k now to clear liens, then buy the all land from sister for 200k, then once survey is done, you can sell the field part to Mrs. X for the 150k. Mrs. X may allow you to give her the 130k at the land office when you clear the liens and then once you purchase the land from sister, return it and file another lien against the land for the 130k.

You will need 574k baht cash, of which you may get 130k back (and another 30k when you sell field to Mrs. X next year), in order to clean this mess up and make sure you ownd the land and the sister does not further borrow against the land.

TH

[DrAndy]

Never listen to Can321; he is Welsh and seems to know very little about Thailand...

dunno, his post doesn't actually say very much except "don't trust anyone else"

he does get his name backwards though

[jamescollister]

Really shuffling loans buying letters of intent, why bother. It's your SIL not your wife, just say so sad to bad and buy the place next door when you are next in Thailand. By the sound of your SIL next door should be about 500 km away. Jim

[nanthicha]

OP, you need to buy the loan from Mrs X and get the land registry office letter in your name. Easy.

If you're not using the house then why would you charge the sister rent? Just let her live there until it is sold then agree a percentage share with her - this needs to be done up front and signed... Good luck.

p.s. Never listen to Can321; he is Welsh and seems to know very little about Thailand...

The note for the 200k loan isnt the problem, we could discharge the loan and register our letter same day. Problem I am told is the separate note saying she has bought the field section (house and field presently on one deed until march 2013) for 150,000. Family think its presence will prevent us getting title to the house section until the two are separated next year

[nanthicha]

Really shuffling loans buying letters of intent, why bother. It's your SIL not your wife, just say so sad to bad and buy the place next door when you are next in Thailand. By the sound of your SIL next door should be about 500 km away. Jim

I wouldnt bother. I have been telling my wife to forget it for 2 months. Problem is sister on phone 3 times a week in tears, then, on Sunday, the monks in the local temple told her she should take care of her sister. I knew from that point common sense was doomed.
We've been together 8 years. I trust my wife 100%. Its her money thats at risk. I haven't been asked to pay anything. I dont like the sister a lot, but trust her, maybe, 75%. Her daughter has returned from Pattaya twice and both times buggered off leaving a baby to look after and gambling debts. Sister isnt blameless neither on the old Hi Lo front, but its not all her fault. Even if it was, my wife would still be honour bound to help. Once she was in the borrowing spiral she was doomed. 4 or 5 fields have gone, the house is the last piece.
In reality sister should sell the house, worth 600k, and move on.

[nanthicha]

Just been handed the details of a lawyer in Pattaya who does a lot of property work in Sakhon Nakhon

[jamescollister]

Really shuffling loans buying letters of intent, why bother. It's your SIL not your wife, just say so sad to bad and buy the place next door when you are next in Thailand. By the sound of your SIL next door should be about 500 km away. Jim

I wouldnt bother. I have been telling my wife to forget it for 2 months. Problem is sister on phone 3 times a week in tears, then, on Sunday, the monks in the local temple told her she should take care of her sister. I knew from that point common sense was doomed.
We've been together 8 years. I trust my wife 100%. Its her money thats at risk. I haven't been asked to pay anything. I dont like the sister a lot, but trust her, maybe, 75%. Her daughter has returned from Pattaya twice and both times buggered off leaving a baby to look after and gambling debts. Sister isnt blameless neither on the old Hi Lo front, but its not all her fault. Even if it was, my wife would still be honour bound to help. Once she was in the borrowing spiral she was doomed. 4 or 5 fields have gone, the house is the last piece.
In reality sister should sell the house, worth 600k, and move on.

Yeah can understand the family thing, I have the whole tribe living in our house. Parents, 2 brothers, their wives and 3 kids plus 2 of my own. Never anything really bad, just the plain stupidity at times. Jim

[Mojo]

The note for the 200k loan isnt the problem, we could discharge the loan and register our letter same day. Problem I am told is the separate note saying she has bought the field section (house and field presently on one deed until march 2013) for 150,000. Family think its presence will prevent us getting title to the house section until the two are separated next year

If that is the case (as it might be) then plan B:

1. Pay off the 200k loan, clear the loan (Ms X) from the title
2. Same day register 200k loan against the land to your wife's name

Now when the SIL will fail on payments to your wife she will take possession of the land once the division is done next year.

Or go for plan C:

1. Clear the title completely by paying off the 200k loan and by cancelling the sale of the field to Ms. X (the field part needs negotiating though)
2. Transfer the title to your wife's name
3. Sell the field later on or hold on to it

In any case you are effectively trying to keep the land and the house in the family instead of it going to Ms. X. So first of all maybe good idea to find out where all this money went that SIL received from Ms. X. Personally i think is smells but if you can afford it and want to by the wifey some land then go for it.

[Johnny Longprong]

Sister then borrows 200,000 from Mrs x offering house part as security
Interest 6000 per month

Umm....that's 36% p.a.
MrsX is a loan shark and will definitely have back up.
The red flags are waving now, walk away from it.

I'm with you. Sister has got herself tied up in something which will be difficult to unwind. She obviously is desperate for money and making some bad decisions. Any possible recovery action by either party, and include yourself in that if you get involved, will be complex and long.

Money and family are never a good mix.

Good luck mate. Hope it works out for the SIL but I am sceptical.

[nanthicha]

Thank you so much everyone. Every single post has talked sense, maybe from different perspectives, but still sense. Noone has said "Yaboo I told you so".
I am less cynical than some seeing that when my wife came to England 8 years ago we were maybe unusual in that we brought with us both of my wife's tiny Thai kids, that I have brought up in Yorkshire, and are now aged 13 and 10, perfect Barnsley British citizens. Wife has worked full time since day 1 and never asked for a penny from me.
Consequently I place huge trust in her impartial judgement of things Thai and honesty and consider myself a lucky man.
I believe the situation can be rescued and am in the process of instructing a lawyer in Korat. Family have been sent to get copies of the deeds and all documents attached to the deeds.
A point I did not mention is that Mrs x has accumulated 4 or 5 fields from sister by lending money at extortionate rates, but has no vehicular access to the road because of 3 pieces of land that she still does not own......one being the house and the other two being fields that my wife bought for 20k each 6 years ago, and refuses to sell at any price.
I fear that my (British) sense of justice is telling me to help if I can, even if there is no gain.