Laos Back to the Old Skool (the views of a very ignorant man)

[robuzo]

I don't detect resentment towards anyone by the Laotians. I don't see why they should resent the Chinese unless they are pissed off with being saddled by communism which the chincks had a hand in. Most the Laotian I know, and that's plenty, have no idea about the history of their own country. GF had no idea why she could by French bread everywhere in Laos and nowhere in Thailand, except Tescos. And no one feels welcome in Algeria, bloody dangerous place.

Also consider that there is a large part of Thailand bordering on Laos, in which a large part of the population and their dialect are referred to as Lao and which has a history of seeking independence from Bangkok. There is a reason Prem wants to place a large standing army in Isaan, and it probably isn't about repelling invaders from Laos or Cambodge.

As to the Chinese, they are more or less on their way to colonizing Laos. They control the Mekong. There is also the "special economic zone" (Chinese zone) outside of Vientiane: BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China moves into laid-back Laos Have you noticed the lettering on the taxis lined up along the riverbank in Vientiane? Laos tend to be fairly aware of their culture and people I talked to last time I was there expressed concern about Chinese influence.

"Most the Laotian I know, and that's plenty, have no idea about the history of their own country." Are you sure you are in a position to judge?

[watterinja]

3) According to Forbes, Thailand is more corrupt than Laos. That is a moot point however, as both are corrupt. My personal experience is also that you can trust Laos business partners but not Thai.

Well, good for you. Somehow, though, I'd say that you're either naive, or are talking baloney...

10X times more corrupt is just silly.

A very simple calculation:
Thailand corruption index around 5-10% is acknowledged by many business folks. It's when it gets above 10% that people begin to really feel uncomfortable.

Laos is interesting:
An externally-funded project comes up. Relevant authority figure approaches supplier along the lines of - you double your price - 50% for you (original selling price) + 50% for me. In other words 100% of correct selling price.

Ever wondered where the money comes from to fund all the V8 Toyota Landcruisers driven around Laos? Oh, sorry, missed the new laptops, mobiles, free per-diems... the list is pretty interesting.

Thailand corruption = smooth as silk;
Laos corruption = hard, in-your-face, upfront, brazen.

Hey, best of success in your investments in the Laos stock market...

Seriously though:
When the level of corruption, in any country, goes above a certain level, it kills business & trading. In my sincere view, this is the fundamental reason why Laos has not grown since 1975. Almost all major initiatives, whether of honest intent, or not, are squashed at early feasibility stage, as the greed factor kicks in. This is a great pity, as the Laos people are, in the main, wonderful, kind folks, who really do deserve to be given a fair chance at life. Instead, many are forced to go off to Thailand in search of work - often menial - just in order o fend for their families. It is a shame.

[robuzo]

Laos is interesting:
An externally-funded project comes up. Relevant authority figure approaches supplier along the lines of - you double your price - 50% for you (original selling price) + 50% for me. In other words 100% of correct selling price.

Ever wondered where the money comes from to fund all the V8 Toyota Landcruisers driven around Laos? Oh, sorry, missed the new laptops, mobiles, free per-diems... the list is pretty interesting.

Thailand corruption = smooth as silk;
Laos corruption = hard, in-your-face, upfront, brazen.

A long time ago, a couple of years after the collapse of the USSR, I was talking with a Russian man in Vancouver and asked him what he thought about the rise of the mafiosi in Russia. "Before we had one mafia, now we have several- there is competition!" Laos, as far as I can tell, still has one mafia.

[the dogcatcher]

I read the BBC article and it would appear positive providing the Laos government hold true to their word. Unfortunately this brings us back to corruption, and the one Mafia conversation. Laos Desparately needs inward investment, but I fear too much of that investment will end up in the pockets of government officials and not the man in the street.

[the dogcatcher]

And yes, I can comment about the level of understanding of Laos history by the commoners there. The village I live in probably has more foreigners than Thais and a good percentage are Laotian, also I am "married" into a large Laos family. There's hundreds of the Laosy buggars.

[watterinja]

I read the BBC article and it would appear positive providing the Laos government hold true to their word. Unfortunately this brings us back to corruption, and the one Mafia conversation. Laos Desparately needs inward investment, but I fear too much of that investment will end up in the pockets of government officials and not the man in the street.

This then answers my 3 questions above. It is a true tragedy.

Of late, there has also been increasing pressure to clamp down on foreign (long-term) visas for Laos. This applies to NGO's, businesses, individuals. It cannot be good for the long-term view on the country, & is a great pity in my view, as many foreigners seem to recently be moving out of Laos.

Something has changed & many foreigners seem to have given up on it's apparent, or promised forward progress - a pity. (Source was from close family members who commented on the number of foreigners they'd observed moving away from Laos.)

[Fabian]

Great stuff SLK - both posts !

I presume you were pissed out of your skull when you wrote 'Kota Kinabalu which is the Western bit of Malaysia' as it is in fact the most eastern city in East Malaysia !

But WTF ! good stuff - where is your next visa run to - your audience awaits !

I agree, very funny.

[Vientianeboy]

"Thailand corruption = smooth as silk;
Laos corruption = hard, in-your-face, upfront, brazen."

I guess you don't read Forbes?

"Of late, there has also been increasing pressure to clamp down on foreign (long-term) visas for Laos."

News to me. I believe the exact opposite to be the case; the Govt. is looking at making visa regulations easier. Though I will say that there has been a clampdown and check on legitimate visas over the last 3 months. This is because of the SEA Games. The same thing happened when the ASEAN conference was held here.

"Hey, best of success in your investments in the Laos stock market..."

Thank you. You could do a lot worse than invest in Nam Theun, BCEL and Laotel.

Dogcatcher: "Has Laos any natural resourses? (sic). It may have but there is'nt the money to look for them."
You are joking, aren't you? I suggest you have a look at Phu Bia and LXML for starters.

As for talking "baloney". Do you actually live and work here? Have you got a business here? Have you spoken to any of the younger ministers and politicians in the government? They are just as aware of corruption and want to do something about it. I am just curious as a lot of what you have written is incorrect. I am always bemused by people who are outside the country and set themselves up as authorities. I actually have more time for the present government here than I do for Abhisit, who really would have difficulty running a brothel on a free day.

[klongmaster]

get it right KW...

bladdy pendant

Wiki:A pendant is a hanging object, generally attached to a necklace or an earring.

Wiki again: A pedant is a person who is overly concerned with formalism and precision, or who makes a show of his learning.

[Maximusp]

The Lao people don't really resent any other people. Given that their status as a LDC, past history and their geogrphical location, Laotians understand that Laos isn't in much of a position to do anything about the encroachment of the Chinese especially up north or the omnipresent Viets. Well I'm not too sure if the Chinese have a definite idea as to what they want to achieve in Laos i.e. if they are really interested in incorporating the LPDR into China. However, in my conversations with a few Laotians, it isn't China or the Chinese that they are concerned about, it is Vietnam. In fact, the impression I seem to be getting is if and when the LPDR will follow in the footsteps of the Khmer Khrom and be annexed formally by Vietnam.

[Jimmu]

written up by a racist and a bigot (Spot on)

[Maximusp]

Few more things. Laos does possess some natural resources and several outfits are seeking to invest, are prospecting or already mining there albeit most of these are from ex communist allies like the Russians (see Russian firm seeks tin, zinc in southern Laos and Laos Mining News - Mining Industry Today), the Chinese (see Sepon mine in Laos to be sold to China? and Tatas eye iron ore mines in Laos-China Mining) and of course the Viets (see Vietnamese mining company signs Laos mining deal and Joint venture carry out bronze mining in Laos - Vietnam Business Finance). Of late, the Aussies seem to have also gotten into the game too (:: KPL :: Lao News Agency).

While Laos may not be the preferred of destinations for most foreigners, I personally do have a soft spot for it. Perhaps it has to do with its sad history dating from the times of the Lane Xang Hom Khao i.e. where each and every one of its neighbors Cambodia, Burma, China, Thailand and of course Vietnam have all sought control over this strategically located country. One cannot forget how a country that led by such great kings like Chao Setthatilath who had fought off the Bayinnaung and his mighty Burmese armies can then press the self destruct button with different factions of nobles dividing the country up into 3 separate kingdoms i.e. Luang Prabang, Viang Chan and Champassak, each faction seeking the support of amongst others the then Siam and Vietnam. Then there was the Vietnam War, where again due to her unfortunate geography, she unwittingly became a player in that war too leading to Laos being the most heavily bombed country in the world just because she formed part of the Ho Chi Minh Trail and also the fact that the Lao People's Revolutionary Party (i.e. LPRP or ພັກປະຊາຊົນປະຕິວັດລາວ) - the current ruling communists - were pro-Vietnam and had set up a soviet republic in Houaphan.

Given the past history, the geographical location one straddling powerful neighbors like China, Vietnam, Thailand as well as ex colonial masters Burma and Cambodia, its inferior bargaining position i.e. as one of the world's Least Developed Countries (LDC), disregarding the obvious Vietnamese influences such as the omnipresent conical hats and the beef noodle soup pho, one cannot be envious of the task the current LPRP leaders such as Choummaly Sayasone and Bouasone Bouphavanh have. i.e. the task of counter balancing, playing off each of the above-mentioned powerful neighbors including the one who were most instrumental in helping formed the LPRP in the first place and providing the then nascent Laotian communist party with their first leaders like the part-Vietnamese Nouhak Phoumsavanh and the University of Hanoi-educated Kaysone Phomvihan. This is no mean feat as Vietnam is thought to still have a 100,000 troops in the LPDR ostensibly to help the LPDR battle the ragged remnants of CIA-trained, General Vang Pao-led Hmong guerrilla army. News reports even those from official mouthpieces like the KPL (see :: KPL :: Lao News Agency) don't seem to offer much relief to those Laotian seeking to shake off the Vietnamese yoke.

While we do not know if it'll indeed happen, the example of what happened to the Khmer Khrom and their lands e.g. Saigon serves as a most sobering reminder to Laos, her people and their leaders as to what may lie in store for Laos in the not too distant future. In fact, some amongst the Laotian diaspora and many within Laos say Laos is already a colony of Vietnam in all but name.

[Rural Surin]

The French have been there, always seems to fck a country and leave it poor when the frechies have been in power. Same same Cambodia and Algeria, the later of which has more oil than Iraq and is still piss poor.

The Thais resent the French having colonized Laos and Cambodia, too. They wanted large swaths of those countries for themselves, not to mention a couple of northern Malay states.

Your point being?

The French have left a legacy of resentment wherever they've been {historically}??

[the dogcatcher]

Yeah, but they didn't hate the money that the French were sending them, in fact they learned to rely on it a bit too much which led to no national ambition and hence turned the countries into shitholes.

[good2bhappy]

convinced me that a visit to Kota Kinabalu which is the Western bit of Malaysia would be a worthwhile trip

so did you find it then?!

[Vientianeboy]

"Of late, the Aussies seem to have also gotten into the game too (:: KPL :: Lao News Agency)."

5 years to be exact.

[Maximusp]

"Of late, the Aussies seem to have also gotten into the game too (:: KPL :: Lao News Agency)."

5 years to be exact.

Yeah but still relatively speaking, a recent phenomenon as compared to the the Russians or the Viets both having upwards a 34 years headstart.

[mtone9317]

yort post. If you read my post in Travel, it doesn't begin to compare with your trip to Viantiane. Words to my fellow American--if you want travel and ADVENTURE come to Thailand, it's much better than an amusement park. Anyway, Disneyland is expensive.

[mingmong]

[quote=SiLeakHunt;1008392]Reet
I’m still in Laos and I’m starting to write a trip report which says a lot for the place and I would have started it this morning if I hadn’t rented a motorbike. Everyone’s up to date as to why I’m out of the country and applying for 60 days at an Embassy rather than popping over the border and heading back .................................................. .........................................



I enjoyed reading that, like visa run to Cambobia, always glad to go home...

[ralphinlaos]

I've lived here for eleven years now - five in Vientiane, six in Thakhek, and have had few problems - none with the Laos government. And I own a business here. Lovely country, happy and friendly people. Something for everyone (but it ain't Pattaya or Patpon, thank Buddha).