Thread: Testosterone Replacement Therapy and HGH

Originally Posted by Neverna

Also weight training will provide you with growth hormone naturally.

You're right about that. I saw an urologist yesterday and he said my testosterone and hormone levels were more like a 35 year old.

- Altitude Training

Use it before you go anywhere near a mountain. I would seriously consider something like this myself. I believe some models aren't very expensive.

Originally Posted by wjblaney

Originally Posted by taxexile

i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.

I'm going to add to your rep (color red) of being the biggest asshole MOFO troller on teakdoor.

I am not usually one to green taxexile. But I make an exception for this one.

Edit: sorry, seems I greened you already recently.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Originally Posted by wjblaney

Originally Posted by taxexile

i think a psychiatrist might be of more use to you.

I'm going to add to your rep (color red) of being the biggest asshole MOFO troller on teakdoor.

I am not usually one to green taxexile. But I make an exception for this one.

Edit: sorry, seems I greened you already recently.

Funny one on yu. We manned up already.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

I am not usually one to green taxexile. But I make an exception for this one.

Heh...Well stated...

I've already greened tex for post #2

Okay...

...he greened me back for post #21

Originally Posted by bearbait

Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?

from my brother's email:

We've made no visits to County Monaghan. County Donegal is where you will find the heart of our Blaney relatives, specifically, in the town of Letterkenney. I've no doubt that there are Blaneys in England. Whether more than distantly related, I doubt. Just like there are Blaneys here in West Virginia, but I haven't found any reasonably direct connection to us. And keep in mind that the Blayney spelling of the surname is fairly common. I assume that we have a distant connection to that clan as well

Originally Posted by wjblaney

Originally Posted by bearbait

Great grandmother on my father's side was in Ireland, but from Wales with a last name of Blaney. You are the first I have ever come across & happen to be curious.
Any of your relation spend some time in County Monaghan near Lough Muckno ?

from my brother's email:

We've made no visits to County Monaghan. County Donegal is where you will find the heart of our Blaney relatives, specifically, in the town of Letterkenney. I've no doubt that there are Blaneys in England. Whether more than distantly related, I doubt. Just like there are Blaneys here in West Virginia, but I haven't found any reasonably direct connection to us. And keep in mind that the Blayney spelling of the surname is fairly common. I assume that we have a distant connection to that clan as well

Thank you for that querry to your bro wjb ..... long shot that it was.

Any possible benefits to TRT (and it is far from proven that there are any) come from replacement - that why it is in the name - replacement therapy.

You already note that you are high/normal - so by no stretch can it be a replacement. So you are thinking of TST - supplement therapy, going over normal levels. Well, side effects include shrunken balls and moobs, so good luck there.

Now, personally, I would find a damn good endocrinologist and try to find out WHY your testosterone levels are high normal at your age - because -and pay attention to this bit - it could indicate an underlying pathology such as adrenal or testicular tumour.

^Good point. I'm about the same age, work out every day, and am quite happy to have all my lab results come back in the 'normal' range. Abnormally high can often be just as much of a warning sign as abnormally low.

^ As they all are. I did see the endocrinologist today and she thinks my level might be low after all. So she wants another blood test tomorrow (last one was a year ago) and then an ultrasound in the afternoon, presumable for all those other bloody diseases someone mentioned.

From an article posted by the National Library of Medicine

The benefits and risks of testosterone replacement therapy: a review

Increased longevity and population aging will increase the number of men with late onset hypogonadism. It is a common condition, but often underdiagnosed and undertreated. The indication of testosterone-replacement therapy (TRT) treatment requires the presence of low testosterone level, and symptoms and signs of hypogonadism. Although controversy remains regarding indications for testosterone supplementation in aging men due to lack of large-scale, long-term studies assessing the benefits and risks of testosterone-replacement therapy in men, reports indicate that TRT may produce a wide range of benefits for men with hypogonadism that include improvement in libido and sexual function, bone density, muscle mass, body composition, mood, erythropoiesis, cognition, quality of life and cardiovascular disease.[/COLOR][/COLOR] Perhaps the most controversial area is the issue of risk, especially possible stimulation of prostate cancer by testosterone, even though no evidence to support this risk exists. Other possible risks include worsening symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy, liver toxicity, hyperviscosity, erythrocytosis, worsening untreated sleep apnea or severe heart failure.

It is a long abstract and the points, for and against, can be argued but these are two reasons I am attracted to TRT: 1) Improved body composition and muscle mass and strength I'll be honest, I'm a normal weight but I want increased benefits from the long hours, sweat and pain in the gym. And 2) Mood and energy and quality of life

Mood and energy and quality of life

Men older than 50 years with low free testosterone levels had poorer quality of life. Hypogonadal men commonly complain of loss of libido, dysphoria, fatigue, and irritability.67,70,144,145 These symptoms overlap with signs and symptoms of major depression. There is significant inverse correlation between bioavailable testosterone and a depression score in elderly men, independent of age and weight but not with total testosterone levels.146 There was a reduced libido and reduced feelings of well being and minimal effect on mood in patients with induced testosterone deficiency; the depressive symptoms during the hypogonadal state were reversed by testosterone replacement.147

I am currently prescribed Zoloft for depression, have been for only a couple of months and it's long term, unless I can find I don't need it any more. Manic-depression was present in my mother, and, unfortunately for her, she didn't exercise or stretch or do any of the modern 'natural' treatments for depression. My addiction to exercise might have kept my symptoms on hold in So. Cal. (or not, since I'm 5 years older than when I lasted lived there). Now I live in LOS and for a long time I haven't had the motivation to work out as hard, as long or as often as I used to (which has been about 20 years in all) If I try to blame the weather, I wonder how so, in a well air conditioned gym? And I said, the depression seems recent (I worked out just as hard in LOS for my first three years here and, sometimes in worse than western-style gyms or even outside). My prescription for Zoloft is for as long as I want it and I SWEAR TO GOD i DON'T ABUSE IT B/C I DO abuse drugs (so I guess you could call me addict and I wouldn't take offense). That's also why I couldn't find any constructive use for 'droids until now. I don't want to be dependent on a pill if there is hospital therapy which does the same job with other benefits as well. I want to know if the there is better treatment for my depression.

More interesting risks (to be objective). Sorry, forgot the source.

Risks of testosterone replacement therapy
The risks of testosterone replacement therapy depend upon age, life circumstances, and other medical conditions.26 There is a risk for prostate cancer and worsening symptoms of benign prostatic hypertrophy, liver toxicity and tumor, worsening symptoms of sleep apnea and congestive heart failure, gynecomastia, infertility and skin diseases. Testosterone replacement therapy is not appropriate for men who are interested in fathering a child because exogenous testosterone will suppress the HPT axis. The risks of testosterone replacement therapy are summarized in Table 3.

But I'd like to make another response to BobR (from Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence - Scientific American

Strange but True: Testosterone Alone Does Not Cause Violence
Hormones don't necessarily make men violent, but they do cause them to seek social dominance
July 5, 2007 |By Christopher Mims

It's commonly assumed that testosterone, that stereotypically male hormone, is intimately tied to violence. The evidence is all around us: weight lifters who overdose on anabolic steroids experience "roid rage," and castration—the removal of the source of testosterone—has been a staple of animal husbandry for centuries.

But what is the nature of that relationship? If you give a normal man a shot of testosterone, will he turn into the Incredible Hulk? And do violent men have higher levels of testosterone than their more docile peers?

"[Historically,] researchers expected an increase in testosterone levels to inevitably lead to more aggression, and this didn't reliably occur," says Frank McAndrew, a professor of psychology at Knox College in Galesburg, Ill. Indeed, the latest research about testosterone and aggression indicates that there's only a weak connection between the two. And when aggression is more narrowly defined as simple physical violence, the connection all but disappears.

"What psychologists and psychiatrists say is that testosterone has a facilitative effect on aggression," comments Melvin Konner, an anthropologist at Emory University and author of The Tangled Wing: Biological Constraints on the Human Spirit. "You don't have a push-pull, click-click relationship where you inject testosterone and get aggressiveness."

Originally Posted by wjblaney

... my goal is to enhance sports performance ...

Originally Posted by wjblaney

And I've done weight training for 20 years.

So I'm in a hot spot: don't want to fully commit to the sport (want to remain unknown and anonymous---and as lazy as possible) but want to be special at the same time.

I've also had some success climbing in South America but now I'm looking at the top of the world (Himalaya)

... I'm very serious about both activities (body building and climbing). And I believe in cheating----seriously.

What specifically do you want to enhance (which aspects[s] of your fitness or sports performance)?

And do you believe that the only difference between you and the top climbers is level of fitness? (And that that level of fitness can be bridged by using THT or HGH?)

Originally Posted by Neverna

What specifically do you want to enhance (which aspects[s] of your fitness or sports performance)?

Lean body fat, strength and stamina. Overall fitness is more important than sports performance as far as my goals are concerned, however.

Originally Posted by Neverna

And do you believe that the only difference between you and the top climbers is level of fitness?

That's silly. I simply want to be a 'average' amateur climber, which means 50% will summit before me and 50% after. Which is where I was at 12 years ago. I just don't feel I'm there any more.

There's so many things that separate me from top climbers, aside from fitness: age, devotion to the sport, experience, genetics, however you want to define athletic ability.

Originally Posted by Neverna

(And that that level of fitness can be bridged by using THT or HGH?)

Certainly not. Fitness can not be obtained without hard work. I really believe 'no pain, no gain'. But I'd consider taking supplements if they will help produce results that I wasn't getting before, with the same amount of work. It's not going to change my ethic: 'no pain, no gain'.

Keep in mind that the T ranges the doctors quote are age specific, and decline with age. An "anti aging" doctor will provide an RX for supplemental testosterone to bring your free T level up to that of a much younger man. T therapy is not very expensive and will definitely improve your sports performance. The main downside is increased risk for prostate cancer. An ethical Dr. will test and continue to monitor your PSA level prior to and during T therapy. It's a perfectly valid approach if you want to continue strenuous activity at your age. Remember though that your joints are worn out, so don't ignore the rest of your body if it can't keep up with your increased muscle strength. Good luck to you.

Originally Posted by wjblaney

How old were you? Why were you taking it? HOW were you taking it? (there are reportedly different side effects for the different treatments (injection, pills-which are a definite no, no, gel patches and there are other forms as well) Was it prescribed to you because you had low testosterone or free testosterone levels?

Old enough that I should have known better (54) and I was taking those Andriol Testocaps the Thai pharmacies sell and hoping they would reduce my belly fat and increase my sex drive and/or ability and they were not prescribed to me by a doctor, I "self prescribed them." The point I wanted to make was that it's simple enough to get your testosterone level tested, why not get that done before messing around with supplements?

Later I had a complete physical when I was in the USA and asked for a testosterone level test, it was not low.

Originally Posted by funcrew

Keep in mind that the T ranges the doctors quote are age specific, and decline with age. An "anti aging" doctor will provide an RX for supplemental testosterone to bring your free T level up to that of a much younger man. T therapy is not very expensive and will definitely improve your sports performance. The main downside is increased risk for prostate cancer. An ethical Dr. will test and continue to monitor your PSA level prior to and during T therapy. It's a perfectly valid approach if you want to continue strenuous activity at your age. Remember though that your joints are worn out, so don't ignore the rest of your body if it can't keep up with your increased muscle strength. Good luck to you.

Thanks, FC. I'm getting my recommendations and tests at Chiangmai Ram Hospital, which, I think, has a very good recommendation. I had a complete physical there a year ago which showed a high T level. I also take medications for sleep and depression. My meds doctor recommended that TRT and Zoloft together would make a very good combination for my depression. That, along with the benefits of strength and body fat composition, sent me back to Chaingmai Ram to visit a urologist who ordered another blood test. He has no experience with prescribing supplemental testosterone but didn't deny the possible benefits of the treatment so he sent me to an endocrinologist, within the same hospital. I got the results of the blood test on Fri. and they show 'very high' T and hormone levels. Oh, well. All is not lost yet as she is sending me to a second endo, again in the same hospital, for a second opinion. So, yes, I'm working with at least 4 doctors in the same hospital who all have access to my history and I know from past experience that they will unfailingly follow up and evaluate any treatment they give me.

Thanks for reminding me about my PSA level. If it's normal now, then it is no concern for me to start treatment. I'm not even sure that I would stop because of an increase in my PSA level, as the cure could likely be worse than the disease. For one thing, I'm 64 and I could easily imagine letting the disease kill me as it takes so long to develop to that point. Another thing I've read about is that the treatment can have a bad affect on quality of life. Fuck that.

One thing the hospital doesn't have is a sports medicine doctor. They will recommend one but since I can quit the treatment at any time, I don't see where any more information I could get would be worth the visit.

My joints (knee, in particular) seem to be unbelievably healthy for my age. Within the past 2-10 years I've run 40 miles a week for weeks at a time. If I find a slight twinge I'll take care. For example, this week I ran only 5 days. How much I will ramp that up will depend. It may be simply I'm out of shape (I get a lot of twinges that just seem to come and go without any reason.)

It looks like any prescription I get for TRT will for be for supplemental T. I'm willing to do that of course to get leaner and stronger, which will enhance my performance. And I wonder: medicine is a science of course but their charts of averages and 'high', 'low' and 'normal' cannot possibly include 100% of the population. I'm attempting to find what's normal for me. I know I don't feel normal unless popped up. T, whether they call it supplement or not, looks like a possible solution to help me feel normal during my everyday life, not just during my sports activities. And I'm clear this feeling of 'abnormalcy' is not an aging symptom because I've felt this way my as far back as I can remember in my adult life (I guess I shouldn't include boredom because that has also been consistent during my whole adult life but I believe TRT will eliminate that as well). Sure I've seen evidence of aging: deep lines on the face (for which I'd never consider Botox) and white or grey hair, for example. I'm completely unconcerned with what I look like. This is all about better health, hopefully both psychologically and physically. If those benefits should not occur, I'm smart enough to stop taking the treatment.

Originally Posted by BobR

Old enough that I should have known better (54) and I was taking those Andriol Testocaps the Thai pharmacies sell and hoping they would reduce my belly fat and increase my sex drive and/or ability and they were not prescribed to me by a doctor, I "self prescribed them." The point I wanted to make was that it's simple enough to get your testosterone level tested, why not get that done before messing around with supplements?


Later I had a complete physical when I was in the USA and asked for a testosterone level test, it was not low.

I am truly going doing everything on "doctor's orders", including a physical, and two blood tests for T level, as I've mentioned in earlier posts.

Well, decision made: it's a no-go. Finished getting the best medical advice in town and ain't about to do self-therapy. I've heard from one guy who apparently will give me a 'doc' that will prescribe testosterone and from another who says it's available over the counter. I don't know if it's a prescription drug or not and don't care as it won't change my decision.

I am starting to drink about three protein shakes per day, or as I feel is required: only 130 cal per serving, 2.5g fat, 5g carbs, 20g protein. I had one late last night and it really hit the spot. My body has learned over time how to distinguish a 'good food for you' taste from a 'good tasting' food. The protein shakes with just water are palatable but nothing like a smoothie. That's why I was so surprised it hit the right spot in my stomach just perfectly. For about a half an hour. After that I was starving but I like knowing for sure I should eat rather than eating because it's time. I'm pretty sure if you're in balance with carbs, fat, protein, vitamins, minerals, and the right amount of food you need, according to your energy expenditure, your body will let you know you're doing the right thing (eating wise).

Good health all!

^Wait...Aw shit...You did another turn and went down the pipe...

Originally Posted by BaitongBoy

Wait...Aw shit...You did another turn and went down the pipe...

I thought that was obvious.