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  1. #51
    Newbie highlander's Avatar
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    Question

    mellow have you any idea what kind of percentage have been canabalized, i guess it would be difficult to find out , unless you actually counted the fish..

    regards scotty

  2. #52
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    We have been loosing about one per tank, per day of late. Sometimes 2 in a tank.

  3. #53
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    Smile Great pic's

    I would luv 2 do this in the Philippines. I would have a hard time keeping the pamily from eating all the FISH!!!!!!!!!

  4. #54
    Newbie Goshiki's Avatar
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    small-scale tilapia farming

    Hi,

    Can Tilapia be grown at high-stocking densities in concrete ponds with the correct filtration and oxygenation.

    feeding only by means of pellets mixed with other food sources.

    Purchasing sex-reversed fingerlings.

    Nothing big scale, we talking 4/5 10,000 liter concrete ponds.

    Would appreciate any advice, don't live in thailand yet, but plan to live on farm near Lam Plai Mat,Buriram within next 2 - 3 years and need to just sustain and sell to local markets?


    Regards

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goshiki View Post
    Hi,

    Can Tilapia be grown at high-stocking densities in concrete ponds with the correct filtration and oxygenation.

    feeding only by means of pellets mixed with other food sources.

    Purchasing sex-reversed fingerlings.

    Nothing big scale, we talking 4/5 10,000 liter concrete ponds.

    Would appreciate any advice, don't live in thailand yet, but plan to live on farm near Lam Plai Mat,Buriram within next 2 - 3 years and need to just sustain and sell to local markets?


    Regards
    The problem is with the electric bill , as compared with the return.

  6. #56
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    How is your fish venture going ?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    How is your fish venture going ?
    Its going OK. We have stopped the pumps a long time ago, because of the electric bill. Been doing water changes instead. Have a few customers, a few more, and the wife should be seeing some profits.

  8. #58
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    What about solar pumps ? Would they work ?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    How is your fish venture going ?
    Its going OK. We have stopped the pumps a long time ago, because of the electric bill. .
    you did the right thing

    the cut-off point for growout to 200grams is 60 days (absolute maximum).
    if you feed them or run the pumps after this you are into a loss.
    after 60 days you should dump them on a wholesaler or sell them off at a discount. (they are time wasters and will put you in the poorhouse)

    they should be grown out at 45 days if you started with good quality inch long fingerlings.

    remember to keep a few of the fastest growing females plus about 20 of the biggest males for broodstock. (you can spawn the females almost every month but the males mostly have to be slaughtered to obtain sperm, although there is supposed to be a method whereby part of the testis can be removed without killing the fish-you need to extract the hormone from the hypothalamus of a large fish anyway, so it makes sense to use the same fish)

    only selective breeding and ruthless culling will produce the kind of fingerlings you need that will perform properly, after a generation or two.

    only poor quality catfish fingerlings available in thailand, because the market for them is ignorant and the thais mostly only harvest once a year, so they get away with it, but in your high density system the average thai hatchery stuff is almost useless.

    the profit margin in thailand is low too, so apart from saving electricity and feed on non performing fish, you can save much of the cost of the fingerlings as well if you breed your own.
    brrrzzzzt, brrrzzzt!
    beep!. ting, ting
    redirecting, please be patient..........:

    hello, insect!
    brrrzzzt, brrrzzzt..................

  10. #60
    Newbie Goshiki's Avatar
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    Mellow and Tsicar thank you for the advise, you guys certainly impart some valuable info.

    It's tough prospect for one considering a move to Thailand, seems to be little in terms of income options even if you willing to put in the extra manual work.

    For me I want to try everything,little bit of each and see what works and literally make enough for sustaining the happy go lucky Thailand farm lifestyle and a few beers here and there. The wife of course desperate to be with the family etc.

    On the hit list
    • Tilapia farming - small scale (possible giant freshwater prawns: polyculture)
    • Bee farming - small scale (sell to locals)
    • Mushroom growing - small scale (sell again to locals and maybe markets)
    • English teaching - as much as possible to make ends meet
    • Maybe Avo trees if can grow - small scale
    • and any other sellable veg, herbs, flowers (for temple etc)
    • Lastly hammock lying,beer drinking - as much as the wife and money allows ha ha
    • suppose gotta help with the rice making too!!!
    Surely this covers all the bases?? and one's or all have to cover it, any suggestions

  11. #61
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsicar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    ^ Tsicar; I saw that study at one time or another, but I have no intention of pushing this system to such an extreme. It seems that the desired size for Pla Duk is around 3 to 5 fish per kilo, around the 250g mark. I would rather start out a bit on the conservative side, to see how well this system functions along with the fish, but still make a profit, then work our way up. For this I need a feeding ratio per body weight, as well as the growth period, and recommended stocking rates for an RAS. Once I have that, I can figure out cost of feed, fingerlins , electric, and a worker, which will give me a break even point, and go from there.
    Doing my own hatchery, will have to be down the road a ways, when I can grow out some nice adult fish. I already have the set up for that, from the experiments we did, figuring out how to build this system, and what works best.
    32% protein feed, is around 450 baht to 480 baht per bag. If there are 15000 fish in the system, trying out different feeds of varying protein levels in order to compare grow out performance, would seem like a logical thing to do. Again fact sheets relating to this, would be nice to have. Thanks for your help. There is a poster on the TV forum, who has quite a catfish operation using ponds. Worth a read or two.
    on the high protien feed in a good system, with good fingerlings, you could achieve a fcr of around 1:1
    so this means your ton of catfish is going to cost around one ton of feed and around 45 to 55 days of electricity to rear. (good catfish eat 10% of bodyweight per day and 10% increase in bodyweight per day.
    lower stocking rates, believe it or not, do not work as well, so the standard is around 450 kg per tank.
    try find that link i posted, it is all in there-quite fascinating, and if you read it, you will be hooked!
    don't waste your time messing with lower protien feeds, all that happens is the fcr will deteriorate, so it ACTUALLY COSTS MORE to rear them on the cheaper feed!:
    i once calculated what it would cost to feed my fish on minced up chicken offal that i could buy in at 5thb per kg.... and it worked out more expensive than the high protien feed that way!
    has all been done before, and you won't make any breakthroughs that the university studies didn't make over 30 years.
    i read the posts on the other forum, and i believe the guy is deluding himself at best.
    he is farming catfish the way the thai villagers do.
    absolutely no way he can achieve the results he claims given the water temps he published, the feeds he uses, and the fact that he grows out the non performing fish instead of discarding them.
    add to that the fact that the guy is wasting money running aerators that the catfish don't need, feeding them some "wonder medicine" (probably oxytetracycline, and some em) which is unnecessary and futile and he will be making a huge loss.
    i went that route before, also thought i was making a profit, but in reality a steady loss was eating me up without me realising it, since i was ignoring the fact that half the fish were not growing, then throwing them back to feed some more, then getting them mixed in with the next batch and so on, until there was no way i could get accurate assessment of what i was doing.
    Thais are producing hundreds millions tonnes of catfishes and other fishes combined each year, they're doing great, how much have you produce? I bettered the skill which an average Thai possesses and i produced between 225-243 tonnes per year.

    The cold season result published, temperature and yield, feed type are all correct, no "wonder medicine" or magic potion, just supplementary remedies like Anti-Bac, Vitamin C and EM. Doubting the benefit of EM application show your lack of knowledge and skill level, and salt is always the rule of thumb. Not discribing the type of percentage level of formalin is also your short sightedness, in aquaculture the level use, type 40% formalin. When catfish becomes deep yellow in colour, it is because of jaundice disease (โรคดีซ่าน Rokh Disan). There~ my contribution for my first post.

    Trials have proven (by me) that "slow performers" when rear for another 40 days, size #8-#10 have achieved break size of #4-#6 (250gm-170gm), and i always have villagers eagerly reserve booking the "slow performers" because they knew they're buying at a steal, they only have to rear for a month plus with good grade pellets in their nursary pond.

    The home-made aerator units are for my neighbour, building a set at his request, upon satisfaction, the whole set up was sold for an agreed price of ฿5'000 plus 2 bottles of Lao Khao.


    Your post dated 2010, now the year is 2013 and I'm earning a profit of between ฿1.3-฿1.6 mil annually, so believe what you want to believe. With this type of income, it's not delusional. It only proved the amateur in you and the pro in me.

    I am RedBullHorn (RBH) from the dreaded other forum, same username same avatar same signature same (nice) attitude and not banned. For my profile, Google " redbullhorn forum "

    I contribute knowledge and tips, not contacts.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by RedBullHorn; 20-03-2013 at 08:20 PM.

  12. #62
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    So you don't know what your operating costs are. You do not know what your income will be. Why did you build it in the first place? Just for a hobby? Otherwise why do something if you don't know whether it will result in profits or losses?

    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
    Looks pretty sharpish. Would you mind sharing what your setup costs were, what your operating costs are, and what your projected monthly income is?

    Some family members have a bright idea to start a frog farm. Just curious is all. I'm years (decades?) off from moving out of BKK, but....
    A frog farm does not require this type of set-up, would be much cheaper. We only started it up a few times, so I really don't know about the operating cost, still waiting on the electrician to make sure all is hooked up correctly , and back up generators. The electrical work looks good, but I want to make sure. Projected monthly income is an unknown factor. Will be selling juvenile fish mostly, what we don't sell, will get put into our 2 ponds to grow out, after reaching 200 grams. I know what it cost us to built, but it would not be an accurate figure. We made mistakes doing this, it wasn't easy. Luckily, we constructed 2 experimental fish farms, which taught us a lot. There's a thread on frog farms on that dreaded other forum.
    Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  13. #63
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsicar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nawty View Post
    How is your fish venture going ?
    Its going OK. We have stopped the pumps a long time ago, because of the electric bill. .
    you did the right thing

    the cut-off point for growout to 200grams is 60 days (absolute maximum).
    if you feed them or run the pumps after this you are into a loss.
    after 60 days you should dump them on a wholesaler or sell them off at a discount. (they are time wasters and will put you in the poorhouse)

    they should be grown out at 45 days if you started with good quality inch long fingerlings.

    remember to keep a few of the fastest growing females plus about 20 of the biggest males for broodstock. (you can spawn the females almost every month but the males mostly have to be slaughtered to obtain sperm, although there is supposed to be a method whereby part of the testis can be removed without killing the fish-you need to extract the hormone from the hypothalamus of a large fish anyway, so it makes sense to use the same fish)

    only selective breeding and ruthless culling will produce the kind of fingerlings you need that will perform properly, after a generation or two.

    only poor quality catfish fingerlings available in thailand, because the market for them is ignorant and the thais mostly only harvest once a year, so they get away with it, but in your high density system the average thai hatchery stuff is almost useless.

    the profit margin in thailand is low too, so apart from saving electricity and feed on non performing fish, you can save much of the cost of the fingerlings as well if you breed your own.
    Oh my Buddha~ Look at the misinformation been writen for members readership.

    There are 2 species that is farm en-mass.
    1 is the more popular Hybrid Pla duk Big Oui (Cross breed of female C.Macrocephlus + male C.Gariepinus), the other is Pla duk Lart Sia (C.Gariepinus).
    Both are intensively farmed in earthen ponds.

    2 other species being the Pla duk Dan (C.Batrachus) and the Pla duk Oui (C.Macrocephlus) they are not farm en-mass but baited out from streams and rivers, rarely seen now a days because of the high numbers of escape hybrid Big Oui.

    Market

    The market for Big Oui is mostly upper northern region starting from Chiang Mai, market share is narrower than Lart Sia.
    Lart Sia market share is nation wide.

    One-Man-Operation (OMO) no hired help

    A Pro farming 10'000 Big Oui using grade A feed, break down:
    (prices are based on upper northern region only)

    Feed per sack ฿565 x 100sacks = ฿56'500
    Fingerlings 3''-4'' @ ฿0.50 a piece x 10'000 = ฿5'000
    (bulk price only minimium 100'000 fingerlings)

    total = ฿61'500

    FCR 1.17:1 (meaning 17kg weight gain out of a 20kg sack, grade A)

    ฿565 x 1.17/20 = ฿33.05
    ฿5'000/100/20 = ฿2.5
    sub total cost per kg. = ฿35.55

    Miscellaneous variable cost = ฿1.45

    total cost per kg. = ฿37

    Big Oui "currently" farmgate price = ฿45-46/kg (upper northern region)

    Nett Profit = ฿8-9/kg (an average of 6 fishes/kg = ฿1.50/fish)

    ฿1.50 x 10'000 = ฿15'000 (฿1.50 x 100'000 = ฿150'000 x 3 cycle =฿450'000/year)

    Or if you choose to to the sum by weight:

    100 sacks x 17 = 1'700kg x ฿9/kg = ฿15'300.

    This is the figures of a Pro Clarias catfish farmer, technique, eye for detail, elements and overall knowledge are involved.

    Amateurs following proper guidance can still net ฿1/fish, the rest behind the pack will do ฿0.50-0.80

    Pla duk Lart Sia have a lower price different of ฿4-6 compare to Big Oui. But require only the inferior grade B feed which is cheaper and because of its fast turn over, need only 60 days to rear, 4 cycle per year in achievable. Cold season is 90 days.

    We (Big Oui Associations nationwide) are doing 3 cycle (1 each season) per year. Farming calender start in March (availability of fingerlings) and end in Febuary. Cold season farming takes between 120-135 days.

    Farm according to your area market supply and demand, if your area market is Lart Sia, don't go and farm Big Oui...

    I can't be bother with doing hatchary in my case, I'm not a patient person, if i can make money faster with high turn-overs, then i shall take the greater pleasure of laughing all the way to the bank every 3-4 months.
    Last edited by RedBullHorn; 20-03-2013 at 08:59 PM.

  14. #64
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    Why not start a thread yourself?

  15. #65
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    Greetings Mod, love your Donor page and the humour.

    I'm still warming up to TD forum, I'll when the time comes. I look forward to contribute good information, hopefully pass on some knowledge about my farming experiance on subjects like Rhone Island Red layers, Piggery that I've done on the side. Clarias catfish farming is my core business and thus got me this far.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by RedBullHorn; 20-03-2013 at 08:35 PM.

  16. #66
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    Good to see a friendly face over here RBH.

  17. #67
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    Good to see you too mate, gosh ! so many...I saw Ozzy, Grimleybob, JamesCollister.... I should have venture out sooner...to the dark side~
    Last edited by RedBullHorn; 21-03-2013 at 11:19 PM.

  18. #68
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    Hi RBH, good to hear your doing well.

  19. #69
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    hello mellow, how're your doing ? Is your farm still in operation ?

  20. #70
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    Doing business in Thailand, always has a risk, never try, never win. I know nothing about growing fish, the FIL has "directed" a few in the pond we dug. They grow great, no costs but a little fish food and should keep my dinner with fish.

    All start up businesses encounter problems, some go down, some survive. I admire Mellow for giving it a try, I've been here now 1.5 year to live, can't find anything to really make money (yet).

    The good/bad thing with Thailand is, everything is cheap, or 80-90% of the population, are looking for cheap. I so many times wonder how on earth, people can make a living out of it, but again, I admire the people for trying and love them to get to their goals.

    Luckily the paperwork of starting a business is quite easy, or just buy your way in.

    Again Mellow, live your dream, go for it, live is too short. I sincerely hope you will be very successful one day, for sure you earn it after all the hard work!
    If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBullHorn View Post
    hello mellow, how're your doing ? Is your farm still in operation ?
    Yes, my wife's farm is still working. We are doing OK, but could use more clients.
    There is a lot of competition, but we have better quality fish. but you know Thais, if they can save 5 Baht, the will buy the lower quality fish. also they have to truck in the fish, which is quite an added expanse. we are currently wholeselling at 51 Bath/K. What are you selling for these days?

  22. #72
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    ^ I always saw this as a problem for a small operation here.
    You can produce a premium product that no one wants to pay for, but not enough to break into a large organic or premium market with the added transport costs.

  23. #73
    Newbie RedBullHorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RedBullHorn View Post
    hello mellow, how're your doing ? Is your farm still in operation ?
    Yes, my wife's farm is still working. We are doing OK, but could use more clients.
    There is a lot of competition, but we have better quality fish. but you know Thais, if they can save 5 Baht, the will buy the lower quality fish. also they have to truck in the fish, which is quite an added expanse. we are currently wholeselling at 51 Bath/K. What are you selling for these days?
    Chiang Rai, "current" prices for:

    Nile Tilapia =
    ฿58/kg (farmgate/wholesales), ฿70/kg (talat/wet market)

    Big Oui hybrid catfish =
    ฿45/kg (farmgate/wholesales),
    ฿60/kg (talat/wet market),

    ฿50/kg for size #6-#8, ฿55/kg for size #2-#5 (Me ! Selling to my village community during any of my harvest days, they will scoot into my ponds and they buy a combined weight of around 100kg everyday, during the harvesting period.)

    Lart Sia catfish =
    ฿38-39/kg (farmgate/wholesales),
    ฿55-60/kg (talat/wet market).

    I only farm Big Oui, my wholesalers don't charge me transport fee, but i have other cost... Liquor & soda + ice. In a 10 days harvest, it would cost me up to 2 cartons of Sangsom rum, 4 cartons of Singha soda water and up to near ฿300 of ice cubes. On top of that, another ฿500-700 of Redbull ! The meals were cheaper about ฿3000 for a 10 day period.

    I take comfort knowing that the wife is helping by drinking most of the bottles...
    Last edited by RedBullHorn; 26-03-2013 at 05:44 PM.

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