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  1. #101
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    ^The brief overview of water chemistry is I'm sure welcome for many readers, but so far you have not shown how this external up-stand pipe works, and what happens to the water and sediment once it overflows out of it. A photo or diagram should be available.
    I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. I'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
    Please take the time to make a diagram, or take a couple of pictures with your phone, which illustrate the function of this external up-stand pipe, and what happens to the water once it overflows out of it.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    ^The brief overview of water chemistry is I'm sure welcome for many readers, but so far you have not shown how this external up-stand pipe works, and what happens to the water and sediment once it overflows out of it. A photo or diagram should be available.
    I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed. All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent. I'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
    Please take the time to make a diagram, or take a couple of pictures with your phone, which illustrate the function of this external up-stand pipe, and what happens to the water once it overflows out of it.
    somewhere in amongst all my shit i have a memory stick with some pics, but for now it is missing. i will post more shit when i find it.
    honestly, though, all the stuff you asked about has the answers in the previous posts, or in the link i posted, even a diagram. you should be able to work it out yourself.
    and this must be boring everyone else just as much as it is boring me.
    kinda getting a bit like the koi/comet debate of a few months ago, and i have no idea why.
    do the "glass of dirty water" test yourself, and you should be able to understand what i have been talking about.

  3. #103
    anonymous ant
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    ^
    I have no idea about Dalton's water chemistry, his personal business practices, nor how he made his feed.
    All I can say is that when I spoke with him, he did not strike me as incompetent.

    'm sure he had test kits, and if the water was heavily fouled, he would know how to do a water change.
    i know everything about his water chemistry, how he made his feed and how he ran his business.


    neither his investors nor myself thought he was incompetent,
    he just found a better way to make money out of his "farm" than by actually producing fish to sell.

    he had test kits and he knew his nitrites were too high, he just thought he could circumvent the known science, and it backfired in his face.
    Last edited by tsicar; 30-06-2009 at 11:11 AM.

  4. #104
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    OK, hope you find your memory stick.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsicar View Post
    just google: "the biology and culture of the african catfish"
    For the benefit of others, here is the .link . Thanks Tciscar!
    Last edited by Spin; 30-06-2009 at 01:09 PM.

  6. #106
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    Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin View Post
    Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.
    Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
    I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction. I actually have a regular stand up pipe which circulates water, and helps keep the water level in the tanks and filters. Then I have another pipe in each tank which has to be manually lifted to allow sediments to be flushed completely out of the system, with it's own exit pipe. To me this no labour approach is to say the least, very interesting. To me this is a new breakthrough which an untold number of fish farmers can benefit from. I am interested in the mechanics and the construction of something he has brought up, yet cannot produce any links, diagrams, or photos. Diverting attention away from this by skimming into brief comments on water chemistry, or Dalton's alleged actions or in actions , still does not illustrate this. Neither does eyeballing a glass with dirty water in it, to watch the dirt settle at the bottom.

  8. #108
    anonymous ant
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Spin View Post
    Tsicar's explanation seems easy enough to understand Mellow, even for a rookie like me. Taking the feed from the bottom of the tank syphons out unwanted cack. Taking it from the top just takes relatively clean water by the sound of things.
    Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
    I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction. I actually have a regular stand up pipe which circulates water, and helps keep the water level in the tanks and filters. Then I have another pipe in each tank which has to be manually lifted to allow sediments to be flushed completely out of the system, with it's own exit pipe. To me this no labour approach is to say the least, very interesting. To me this is a new breakthrough which an untold number of fish farmers can benefit from. I am interested in the mechanics and the construction of something he has brought up, yet cannot produce any links, diagrams, or photos. Diverting attention away from this by skimming into brief comments on water chemistry, or Dalton's alleged actions or in actions , still does not illustrate this. Neither does eyeballing a glass with dirty water in it, to watch the dirt settle at the bottom.
    mellow, i sent you a pm. hope it explains a few things.
    cheers

  9. #109
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    [quote=mellow;1097063]
    Quote Originally Posted by Spin View Post
    Sound's good to me too, that's why I want to see how it's done. I actually have to lift a pipe for this. He says his system does this without any labor, all the time. I would like to see this. I would like to see where the water goes once it comes out of this external up-stand pipe. How the "clean water " is recirculated, how the water level is maintained in the tanks by just falling into the tank to increase oxygenation.
    I feel behind the times in the systems that we have been using in the experiments and the current ones under construction.
    The idea is to create whirlpool effect when having water return to the tank. This will send all the poo to the bottom center where a pipe leading to the overflow will draw it out.

    The diagram below shows an 'aquaponics' system that produces both fish and organic veggies. I set up a similar system and found that the 'whirlpool' effect and bottom fed overflow was very effective.



    Below is a pic of well established system producing heaps of vegies. This may not be commercially viable, but it's a great hobby that can also feed a family.



    Here's a commercial system that isn't well established yet.

    FISH TANKS


    GROWING AREA




    Young strawberries in columns with young tomatoes in the background

  10. #110
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    thanx for the pix and the diagram, smithson. looks like a similar setup to the external one i was talking about, but with added advantage of bypass overflow in event of blockages.
    important thing is that it takes the fouled water from the bottom, where most of it settles.
    from here to the veg, then on to biofilter, or if you don't want to do veg, then normal septic-tank type system for processing of solids before return to biofilter. (i prefer the veggie step, tho!)

    just a comment on the whirlpool: if the tank is circular and you have a circular motion of the water (whirlpool), the worst of the solids seem to congregate at the centre of the tank, so perhaps this should be where the syphon is positioned?
    i seperate catfish fry that i accidentally syphon off while removing fungus and detrius from the hatchery tank this way: dump all the leftovers in a bucket and stirr it up, with a shaded area at one side of the bucket and a strong lamp above. strong fry that were accidentally sucked up will congregate under the sheltered part and the weak ones plus all the crap congregates at the centre, and this is easily syphoned off and discarded.
    Last edited by tsicar; 07-07-2009 at 02:43 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsicar View Post
    just a comment on the whirlpool: if the tank is circular and you have a circular motion of the water (whirlpool), the worst of the solids seem to congregate at the centre of the tank, so perhaps this should be where the syphon is positioned?
    This is correct, it's just that the diagram is simplified. The hose filling the tank also needs to enter at an angle rather than just dropping in.

    The growbed is actually the biofilter filled with gravel. It operates on a flood and drain with a loop auto syphon (shown as B on the diagram). As a rule of thumb, the grow beds should be twice the size of the fish tank, so you can imagine just how much vegies can be produced. The only thing that needs to be added is chelated iron and maybe seaweed extract for micronutrients.

    Worms can be added to grow beds also, however in my system I found they somehow appeared by themselves. Growers have reported that after more than a year of production, their growbeds remained clear of dirt and dead plant roots - thw worms ate everything.

    The part at the bottom is a sump, the level fluctuates with the flood and drain cycle of the growbed. It must contain enough water to fill the the growbed and have the auto syphon kick in. Otherwise the sump will run dry and this system stops working.



    Not sure if I've explained it clearly, if not let me know.

  12. #112
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    Thanks for the pictures, and diagram Smithson. The venturi drain is a very nice idea. Don't want the vegies, although very nice set up. Their filtering capacity is very nice, but it needs a lot of room. Would also increase the amount of labour needed.
    The venturi drain is something which I will try and incorporate in future doings as my wife's fish farm evolves. But in a tank, I would still like to have a bottom drain, for obvious reasons. tsicar brought up aeration. I would like to tap other peoples idea about this. I am planning to use a Supercharger, whose air will be distributed via a manifold, delivered with air stones throughout the system. The system is of the recirculating type, with 51 tanks each holding 1 cu M of water.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    Thanks for the pictures, and diagram Smithson. The venturi drain is a very nice idea. Don't want the vegies, although very nice set up. Their filtering capacity is very nice, but it needs a lot of room. Would also increase the amount of labour needed.
    The venturi drain is something which I will try and incorporate in future doings as my wife's fish farm evolves. But in a tank, I would still like to have a bottom drain, for obvious reasons. tsicar brought up aeration. I would like to tap other peoples idea about this. I am planning to use a Supercharger, whose air will be distributed via a manifold, delivered with air stones throughout the system. The system is of the recirculating type, with 51 tanks each holding 1 cu M of water.
    mellow, why not rather use your supercharger to both aerate and pump your water at the same time? look up info on "airlift systems".
    your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
    profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
    there is an interesting section in that link i posted, where it describes a home made system like this on a farm in zambia. they used a turbocharger from a truck. you might get some ideas there.

  14. #114
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    [quote=tsicar;1103468]
    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
    profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
    This was the discussion in the AP forum, airstones aren't efficient enough, best to use the pump for aeration as well.

    The profict margins are definitely low, I had did research for AP but decided due to the abundant water in Thailand, there's no way it could be profitable.

  15. #115
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    [quote=Smithson;1104457]
    Quote Originally Posted by tsicar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mellow View Post
    your airstones are not going to be an efficient way to do it.
    profit margin is low, and you have to keep your costs down.
    This was the discussion in the AP forum, airstones aren't efficient enough, best to use the pump for aeration as well.

    The profict margins are definitely low, I had did research for AP but decided due to the abundant water in Thailand, there's no way it could be profitable.
    That wasn't me quoting about air stones, or profit margin. But I do agree about keeping cost down.
    I looked at that picture in the link, and with a trickle tower the only way I can see of putting more oxygen in the water would be to aerate the last filter chamber prior to the water being pumped up into the Bio. I think I would still need air stones though.
    Whats the AP forum? Research the profitability of what? Fish farming or air stones?

  16. #116
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    ^ I was wondering about AP as a business, but it's not viable. The forum is here Backyard Aquaponics • Index page

    If you're only looking at aquaculture, then don't worry about the diagram, AP is a balancing act - what's best for the fish isn't always best for the plants and visa-versa.

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    ^ Only interested in Aquaculture, but a good link nonetheless. Could be profitable for you, if you were to concentrate on spices maybe. I know that some can be quite expansive. If you have done all that work, you should maybe look into that.

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    ^ If you're only interested in aquaculture the idea of tsicar regarding Plachon (snakeheads) sounds interesting. These are a nice eating fish and fetch a good price.

    My present business does well enough, so no need to look for something new.I did the AP as a hobby, but don't really have the time for it. The pond I have set up could easily be configured to work like the system in the diagram, which I may do some day.

    AP is a lovely concept, it's being taught in high school science lessons to explain the idea of 'closed loop' (no waste) environments and how waste products are actually resources.

    Another idea was to set up a restaurant, where the AP system was visible and attractive. The idea of super-fresh organic food and fish may work.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smithson View Post
    ^ If you're only interested in aquaculture the idea of tsicar regarding Plachon (snakeheads) sounds interesting. These are a nice eating fish and fetch a good price.

    .
    i have done a lot of research on the plachon. the only info available on farming these fish that i could find comes from thailand, and it is, as usual, subsistence-based non-scientific and antiquated.
    given the physical properties and their hardiness, (high tolerance to poor water quality, plus they have sub-branchial organ like catfish so can breathe air),i would think that they could be farmed at extreme densities in a recirculating system, and the very poor fcr the thais are getting (you woulld get the same from any other fish if you used the thai approach),is can probably be attributed to what and how they are feeding and rearing them. anyway, even if you got a 1:3 fcr, you would probably score, since the selling price is so high.

  20. #120
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    Will investigate the Plachon angle. I will also have to find a fingerling supplier if the market value is high. I thought most of the fingerlings where caught in the wild for this fish. Either way I'm still looking for some good aeration ideas. Although I have seen a few supercharger set up I would like more info on those, should anyone have a good link on it. tsicar, the one you gave me primarily showed 3 water jets, said the supercharger had to be geared down, and that's it. Saw Dalton's, and a neighbor down the road has got one he just put in. But I think he's getting worried about my wife's set up, although he only sell fingerlings ( he also works at the goverment fish farm) and my wife has told him she plans on growing fish out for the market.

  21. #121
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    I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
    2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by 4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
    The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.

    My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week.

    Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
    shoppers should not be a problem.
    Any thoughts will be apperiated.

    Thanks

  22. #122
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    Well well well, Tsicar is very gifted in the art of stabbing people in the back, that much I can say. Regarding his knowledge of fishfarming, then it all seem to be words on paper, I've seen his farm in Thailand and that looked kind of different.
    I never said that I dont make mistakes, ofcause I do, but I'm the kind of man who try to do things in real life, not just writing about it. Many things need to be changed in my farm and I've learned from mistakes, and still I will make mistakes...It's called life...And life do go on, also for you Tsicar and I hope that your attack on me, has made you feel better about your life.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    W.C.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBobThai View Post
    I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
    2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by 4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
    The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.

    My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week.

    Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
    shoppers should not be a problem.
    Any thoughts will be apperiated.

    Thanks
    Hello BBT, sounds like a neat project. We also built 2 experiments which we learned a lot from, before going for the real thing. We used rolled up shade cloth and it seemed to of worked well. Plastic banding (used would be cheapest) might be more durable. Also did one biofilter with mixed media, Bio balls and shade cloth.
    Dalton is back on line, he has much more experience, especially hands on. He might decide to participate again. I took some pictures of his set up, check them out.
    Here are some links on media:
    SYSTEM DESIGN

    AN OVERVIEW OF BIOFILTRATION PACKINGS

    Plastic Filter Media

    I don't know how your pond will work on this , unless you set it up so that it can be cleaned out, but then you would have to be more specific.

    Here are some pictures of our experiments, 2 different systems. We learned a lot from them, they worked pretty well.

    https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayimage.php?album=random&cat=12189&pos=-56935

    https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayi...189&pos=-56934

    https://teakdoor.com/Gallery/displayi...189&pos=-56933
    Had to shut it down, the fish got too big, but the stocking density was at 60 to 70%. The fish were beautiful and healthy. Tasted very good with no fat. Will use these systems for incoming fingerlings later, when all is running.

  24. #124
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    Either way your gonna need a settling tank to get most of the solids out, and that will have to be drained and cleaned often.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBobThai View Post
    I am in the planning stage to build a test setup to grow catfish in a high intensity
    2 cubic meter tank with a 2 cubic meter bio-filter and a pond, 2 meter by 4 meter by 1/3 meter deep filled with these local water plants from the canal.
    The water will flow from the fish tank to a setteling tank before entering the pond. The water will be pumped to a bio-filter tower and gravity back to the fishtank. A complete water change will be made once every hour.

    My question is, what to use for my media in the bio-filter? The media needs to be inexpensive as quite a bit will be needed. I have considered gound up charcol, gravel, plastic mosquito netting, plastic shade cloth, shreded plastic bottles from the recycler, and coconut husk, but they disolve in a little over a week.

    Once I have made this setup to work, I plan on setting up enough tanks so that I can turn over 1 tank a month. This will take place at my home so the midnight
    shoppers should not be a problem.
    Any thoughts will be apperiated.

    Thanks
    you can use ANYTHING inorganic(preferably) as media as long as you remember what you are trying to achieve in the first place: to expose as much of the contaminated water to many aerobic bacteria as possible. the larger the surface area, the better this will work, but remember that the bacteria need oxygen to function. this is the whole idea of the trickle tower, since the water is meant to TRICKLE down through it, collecting oxygen on its way, and the bacteria then doing their job on the way through it. you have to calculate very carefully how much you can TRICKLE through the media, to still have enough volume to supply your rearing tank at the required exchange rate.
    you can calculate the surface area of your shade cloth (a good medium, and cheap). i personally am not a fan of trickle towers, mainly because i do not believe that a trickle of water will add up to the required volume at the outlet, but i am sure it can be done.
    i used a similar system to the one you have described (but no trickle tower). my water ran through the tanks to settlement then onto a pond of approx 600 000 litres, pumped back from the pond then via spray nozzles which violently frothed and foamed the entire surface of the water into the first filter tank which was equipped with baffles to slow down the flow. between the baffles, rocks of diminishing sizes for more anaerobic conversion, then to media (hanging, weighted sheets of SHADENET (!) onto the third filter chamber filled with waterweed. the crystal-clear water that emerged from this setup (my kids and i used it for drinking water for over two years, with no ill effects) was then gravity fed to the rearing tanks. disadvantage of this system was that it took up too much space, the filtration having area of about three times the rearing tanks, if you did not include the pond, but i had the space, so what the hell.
    Last edited by tsicar; 11-07-2009 at 04:23 PM.

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