Results 1 to 9 of 9
  1. #1
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140

    Black Soldier Flies

    Hi all,

    as we have been busy with our Aquaponics test System for more than 5 years now a few new Ideas have to be Implemented before we do start up family farm as planned in 2021.
    Fish food is still one of the main costs that want to be minimized.
    After finding a Fish Pellet Extruder for less than 150K THB we did a lot of mixes.
    From using Fish scraps from filleting and mixing with Duckweed etc etc...

    The bummer is that we never exceeded the 30% Protein and so we came to the plan to integrate Black Soldier Flies in out zero waste management plan.
    Instead of just composting overproduction and low quality Vegetables we want to feed them to BSF and their larvae meal to our fishes and crayfishes.

    Has anyone made experiences with these greedy little critters or may be even breeding them?

    Cheers

    Will

  2. #2
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140
    The fist plans is developed.

    I was thinking about using a triple efficiency system.

    The BSF needs hides like leaves and in my Aquaponics test system I had troubles with my Japanese Cucumbers.
    As soon they grew the pests came to heaps and so my Idea came having BSFs in a cage as in many descriptions also written, giving them hides by using cucumber vines where they can mate on the leaves. The fine mesh wire will keep the pests physically out and the pheromones of BSF keep houseflies away so it has to be checked if that only counts for houseflies or also for white flies, aphids, ants and other critters..
    Connect the aquaponics to the plant shelf and the BSF which doesn't eat but needs water can drink
    and attach the Compost bin from outside to the cage for easy access and harvest of the larvae.

    Looks like nobody here in this forum ever bothered odorless composting but may be somebody will do if the right input is given.

    Black Soldier Flies-enterra-feed-corp-1-374lrqj1f5vfofx4tdtbeo-jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Black Soldier Flies-enterra-feed-corp-1-374lrqj1f5vfofx4tdtbeo-jpg  
    Last edited by See Will; 11-08-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140
    The first Plan is to build as always a test system which could be later in my planned Aquaponics Farm (see my other Thread: Aquaponics revival.)
    meaning a break through regarding fish feed, extra vegetable production and waste management in a symbiotic system.

    The first drawing is an idea to make the BSF easy maintenance and self sustaining in a contained environment.
    My wife gets already goose bumps but next week it's start to build that thing..

    Sure here will be again engineering clashing into nature and more challenges will come..

    Just considering that a black soldier fly bin of 1 sqm kitchen scraps can convert 10-15Kg scraps per day! Producing less greenhouse gasses and even give good fertilizer.

    There is a Video on U-Tube where BSF Larvae going through a full stocked 16" Pizza in about 2 hrs..
    That opens a lot of opportunities(remember the movie "Snatch". With BSF you can forget Brick Top and his Pig Farm )

    here my first thoughts of a design and I hope that this threat also will be starting off with the huge interest as the Aquaponics revival thread did...

    Black Soldier Flies-bsf-farm-jpg

    The construction will be maintained in Photos from next week on if anyone is interested..

    Info:
    FDA-USDA Certificates for Livestock feed are ongoing, at present there is the first approval done for fish feed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Black Soldier Flies-bsf-farm-jpg  

  4. #4
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Palace Far from Worries
    Posts
    14,393
    Seems a very complex and expensive way of obtaining protein?

    I've seen commercial set-ups with black lights, or systems like this on a small scale ...



    The duck-weed is a real favourite of Fish.

    There are lot's of alternative feed sources with varying degrees of protein available if you read widely above and talk with the Thai's.

    If you attempt to Farm anything like you would in the West, it's highly unlikely you'll ever turn a profit.

    If you are going to eventually 'invest' in a commercial scale operation, consider on how you will address the theft issue.

    That said, I wish you well and great to see the enthusiasm which which you have approached your project.

    IMHO
    Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago ...


  5. #5
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140
    The first trial with BSF was a box with unattended scraps.. Fed my fishes in the test system for 5 days, so basically that was the right mating and breeding spot and after "google helps" I was all about the sunlight and humidity.. I worked 37 years offshore and its now time to rethink and do something else, the pension is settled, savings are sufficient for a larger scale Greenhouse Project.
    Contacts are made and still we have 2 years more with our test system.

    For me is it to keep myself busy as I see too much pensioners at the stone tables, that's sure not my lifestyle. I need to have something to hold on and when it keeps the family in Food I am happy."


    "If you are going to eventually 'invest' in a commercial scale operation, consider on how you will address the theft issue."

    That is pretty much of a story as the Thais don't see it as theft just come with nets and take even you see them. My dutch companion made a trench, barb wire and bougainvilleas around his turf and that worked wonder. After a bit more than a year it was impenetrable. The Flowers looking fantastic and the thorns are the nastiest I found so far.. Guinea Fowls as alarm and guard dogs for the respect.. I trained police dogs, just need to retire to have the time. Mine working well but as soon I am at sea they got spoiled by my wife..

    The BSF is an important part of the waste management for the organic Thailand certification and very good support we get from BOI.

  6. #6
    Freelance Astronaut
    Thai Dhupp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Last Online
    23-02-2024 @ 12:36 AM
    Location
    Thailand...just Thailand!
    Posts
    2,103
    Hi Sea Will... I am interested to know more from your experiences with BSF. they are one of the highest protein sources, as I understand it, even being considered for human consumption sometime in the future (if they can make em taste like McDonalds !).

    Seriously though it is a good source of feed protein - i have watched many YT vids on it... seems ideal.

    when we finally get settled in TD Towers, my wife has idea of rearing shrimp (on a small scale) partly for something to do, something to eat and maybe something to occasionally sell. i have the same idea with crayfish too, which we have been successfully raising in our BKK Apartment for 3 years to learn how to do it.

    Sure we are not looking at commercial scale production, more as a bit of fun with a small side order of cash down the line. there are not too many tank crayfish farms as i understand it - all the thai ones i have seen use out door ponds and its all a little hit or miss. ie not so efficient.

    I am interested to try the tank option but of course besides in-fighting if too cramped, one need a high protein food source to bring on the crayfish relatively quickly, in the early weeks. crayfish eat mainly vegetation in later life. (of course they will eat what they are bloody well given in a controlled environment!). My experience, mainly passive was that they go from new-born to saleable size in around 7-8 months, saleable is not the 3kg bucket tipped into the paper, more the 100-130grm restaurant size which is where more money is.

    As i said, bit of a hobby, might come to nothing, will give it a try for amusement n see where it goes. if nothing else, we eat 'em so - saves buying crab all the time!

  7. #7
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140
    Hi ThaiDhupp,

    these critters are some cool fellows and the market is still a virgin.
    All what I did is as in all cases to trace Universities who are working on the specific matter many are not replying but here and there is a success and a graduate or even a Mentor replies. I have the advantage of Family members who are out of the fisheries and greenhouse hydroponics and beside this I have been all my life on ships (just to mention sewage systems)
    This facts made it easy to built a network from USA till Uganda where we share all our knowledge.
    A Agricultural Student and Mentor is not thinking of ship systems and we have made some crazy developments outside the Box.
    Because the Universities have a bigger budget to "waste" I can do my share on my system and share what we experience in Thailand.
    Its a taking and giving in a win win situation.
    I stopped the clock at 500.000 THB and I am sure my wifey is right when she said, "oh my Buddha, we sure spent already a million just for teaching me" but on a long term it will pay back.

    As in all fish farming: the size does matter and the facility what you provide your crayfish.. Growbeds are Rivers for crayfishes and no tanks as little hint just not so muddy and murky and so is the taste.
    I can only say by now that the food costs makes fish a loss and Black soldier flies could change this imbalance.
    BUT studies tell also that BSF fed fish is growing slower and the fish has more Omega 6 fats that you not want.
    Buying fish meal or selling only fillets and make your own FM is another option to pull the steering wheel in the right direction.

    With your values and numbers you are on a good path, but don't expect more than one biggie (120grs plus) in Homepro Fishtanks, that will not work.. I would recommend to go with that size set up for ornamentals and sell to an aquarium store..

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat David48atTD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Palace Far from Worries
    Posts
    14,393
    Hi Will, thanks for the reply above.

    Can I reflect on some 'old salty' experience?

    The Thai Family and thus I, by default, are Fish and Shrimp Farmers ... I've seen a lot.

    The Farm background story is here ... https://teakdoor.com/living-in-thaila...d-relaxed.html

    To survive, the farm has to make a profit.

    ---

    A while back, on another Forum, I went to a meeting in Issan/Isaan of the Farang Farmers ... was a hoot.

    Of the Farmers, some were 'Hobbyists' happy to live off the produce they generate.
    Some of the Farmers were professional farmers back in the West ... meaning they owned an income producing farm.

    They all had their versions of a Farm in Thailand ... hence the gathering of like minds.

    TO A MAN ... NO-ONE WAS MAKING A PROFIT

    NO-ONE WAS EVEN CLOSE TO BREAK EVEN

    NO-ONE

    ---

    You make light of the security issue of theft.

    Let's think this through. Your commercial operation might be over 2 Rai.

    What cost do you think it would take to build a fence, impenetrable to a hungry Thai?

    Dogs can easily be baited.

    ---

    What do we do?

    The Farm Father sleeps all night between the ponds in a Sala.

    He's made it known that he has a gun.

    We literally in the middle on no-where.

    We are surrounded by relatives who also have Farms ... but he sleeps there never-the-less.

    ---

    ... and that's just the theft issues.

    One of the issues that almost every Farang Farmer trying his luck in Thailand is the cost of inputs as it's one of the few variables he/she can control.
    The Farm Gate price is set by the buyer, not the seller, the Farmer.

    ---

    If I was a Banker and you approached me for a loan to build and run your Farm for the first 3 years, as a start, I'd be looking for the following ...

    • Most importantly ... A Business Plan
    • Labor (worker) requirements
    • Market and price confirmed for your product
    • Business IP ... every Thai will try and copy you.
    • Input cost control
    • Feed conversion ratios
    • An extensive cash flow spread sheet
    • Water costs and reliability of supply
    • Alternative feed costs


    If you are going to buy land to develop the project on, are you going to BumFuckNoWhere where the land is cheap but probably a long way from your Markets?

    Or buying land close to your market but paying a premium for that land?
    If so, you have to consider the opportunity cost of doing that?

    If you are buying land ... there is another house build costs as Thai's rarely buy land with a house already constructed.

    Ghosts and Spirits and all that.

    What is the 'title' on your land ... not all Thai land is 'Freehold'.
    Do you understand what Chanote title deed is?

    Do you know that, as a foreigner, you aren't allowed to own land in Thailand.

    So you sink 10/20 million BHT into your project and you and your wife split, have you thought who get's to keep almost everything?
    Hint ... it's ain't you

    ---

    What is the IRR of the project?

    If you don't know what 'opportunity cost' and 'IRR', do read more about those financial principles.

    ---

    If this is your attitude to business costs ... you're fucked.

    [QUOTE=See Will;3984560
    Remark: If you buy an electronic Tester teach any experienced Thai rice farmer using it, HOW to use it with a step by step guidance and make clear you cannot test you water by throwing the whole thing into the Fish tank.
    It won't work and it WILL not work anymore and anytime. ($380 in the bin)

    .. and she drowned another electronic PH and Temperature Tester (only 120$ this time) by multitasking, holding a Crayfish in one hand and the tester in the other... well and as the Crayfish pinched her with all his force of the main Claw the tester dropped ... naah forget it, shit happens!
    [/QUOTE]

    ---

    Will, I care.

    I really don't mean to be negative but I've seen and read so many horror stories where the Farang Farmer has waded in, confident in his/her ability to make a profit, only to be shite stained after 2/3/4/5 years ... till the money ran out.

    Don't let that you be you Mr Will

    ---

  9. #9
    Member
    See Will's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Last Online
    20-03-2020 @ 02:32 PM
    Location
    Chonburi
    Posts
    140
    "Don't let that you be you Mr Will"

    Cheers David48atTD for the detailed lay out of things and sure its much appreciated to compare what has to be done and what could/will go wrong.

    I am here since 2002 and after breaking through thin ice I have changed/adapted to a lot.

    I won in the past 10 years 3 cases of land buy in very favorable spots against Thais and I was aware that this would happen.
    My lawyer from Bangkok is a pro farang operating guy who off cause wants a coin but therefore he is washed with all waters and if he says yes I go for it if he says no, fingers off.

    I am now 37 years self employed and therefrom 17 years in Thailand, hence I have learned things, but also that "Farang Farmers" who do not make Profit in any business (and yes I met them in heaps.) are most likely the "guests" of such gatherings grabbing every straw they can, to avoid drawings.

    The ones that make profit are way to busy to bother such meeting or helping those mentioned above and I can only confirm that a self employed person in Thailand who runs a company (as I am) need to be clear, the money is not laying on the road to pick up.
    When you are busy for 16 - 18 hrs a day with your Company in Europe you need to sleep 24-35 hrs a WEEK in Thailand to be successful and there is no Time for a beer at the stone table or bar.

    Most of the Issues you mentioned are so right and I not recommend to do any business in Thailand if you not had one before or you just dream your concept.

    Guard Dogs: The first you train a Dog -I plan 6-8 dogs for 60000 sqm of Land (more I do not want to mention) to go for the hand that wants to feed you and make the fence the border, who passes outside by gets "silent" stalked and who steps on the Land without my or my wife's presence, will lay as long on the ground until the owner is present.
    I bred (by accident) a mix of Bang Kaew - German Shepard and they are ferocious, hard to train but the best protection I know so far.
    That confirmed a Lazada Guy for 6 hrs laying flat on my lawn.
    That takes 15-30 minutes of my time twice a day and the offsprings (3rd generation now have it a bit given in the blood already)

    I will not say my business plan is 100% safe and bagged but I am pretty good way through it and another 2-3 years of testing have to eliminate some more issues.

    Also the regulations that have to be fulfilled are massive, who thinks FDA, CITES and USDA requirements are sufficient will better take his hands from a farm.
    We are speaking 21 main and in total 54 requirements and approvals who each want a full size documentation or procedure for Certification and Approvals and each of them is not just sent out and approved.
    It includes weeks of sending and receiving review notes just to see a light on the horizon.

    The Thai wife story is another one..
    Just lets say in how many cases it the major fault of the Farang that he lost all,
    but especially in Forums the story "the bad Thai wife goes on and on" and I will not join these in any way
    I did mention I have a very good lawyer, enough said but I also want to mention that its 10$ to cheat on your wife and 500 baht to come home "pissed" every day, hence to fail in a relationship is way cheaper than in Europe. (be honest it's counting everywhere in the world, for a good relationship you need two good persons and its a every day job to keep it that way)

    But in total I can see you have just in such a short time this post came replied in such a way of professionalism that I give to you without doubts, you know your stuff and I estimate you can make it a good living in Thailand facing the ups and downs to come before the sh*t hits the fan.

    The attitude about my lost Equipment is not understand completely right.
    I wasn't "pleased" at all it happened but I leaned and adapted the Thai way of thinking: "Tomorrow I go for 15 years in Prison but I will sleep as good as yesterday" sort of..
    The face of my wife, so naive, stunned and helpless looking at me as it happens was just hilarious and a laughing the right way works much better than a shouting when you are a company owner. Treat your Employees as you want to be treated, these Situations are good for learn this..

    one point you forgot:
    Employment!
    The Thai worker:
    Today I work, I get my salary, and tomorrow I stay at home, no bad feelings coz I have to eat.
    I can live 7 days from this salary and then I am close to drowning, I go back and demand my Job again and my boss will be very happy to see me again..

    It took me 10 years to form very gentle and slow ahead of my Plan to forge the Uncle who is a natural "European" sensed Thai with a huge responsibility feeling, Wife who knows as the owner of our company how hard it is to be hard to Employees. My nephews who came unspoiled with 12 (as they left school) to us and learned under my, my uncle's and wife's control whats to be a businessman.

    And still we 5 are fearing the time when the employment phase starts.
    We estimate that 1 out of 100 will be a reliable member of our team, and bonuses or pension plans will not have any influence to make this average changing to the good.
    We know we have to swim with the flow this way..

    Just for the topic:
    The black soldier fly is approved in Europe for fish food but to ennoble and evaluate my "waste" there is a long way to go.
    The aquaponics will pay either way, selling the veggies or selling the ingredients for fish food (and hopefully after 1000 more environmental, hygienically and technical review notes to come also the chicken and swine food gets approval)

    My relatives in Europe is working hard on the "processed fish" marketing and auction requirements.
    (more also not here to say but lucky I have them,
    especially the ones that are fish trader for North sea fish and now more and more specialized in Imports. The quotation story that Kills our fishing fleets)
    Last edited by See Will; 12-08-2019 at 10:23 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •