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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    30 year lease thing

    Is this a standard form, or does a lawyer draft it to accommodate particular circumstances?

  2. #2
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    You have to pay tax right and it is registered on the rear of the title.

    Also the 30 plus 30 year extensions seem to be fairy tale stuff.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristySweet
    That's when we'll see a real real estate slump.
    The volume of 30 year leases running since the 1980's is insufficient to cause a property crash here. IMHO.

  4. #4
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Although it never hurts to have one, the "value" of having a 30 year lease is based on individual risk abatement need.

    If the property is in a spouses name and the 30 year lease holder splits with the spouse a couple of questions come to mind.

    Would the lease holder want to stay on the property?

    Is the lease worth anything monetarily?

    In most cases the answer to both is no if the lease is on a property in a small village the spouse is from.
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect,"

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I did mention contractual lease extensions that would bring it up to 90 years
    Seeing as you've no clue I'll put section 540 here for you in full with the correct and relevant text highlighted in bold

    Section 540: 'The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal'.

    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    and make sure there are two automatic extensions (bringing it up to 90 years)
    If you include the 2 automatic extensions in the lease the land office will reduce the term to 30 years for you, no questions asked, as per section 540, shown clearly, above, just for you.
    Originally Posted by Smeg
    ... I like to fantasise sometimes, and I lie very occasionally... my superior home, job, wealth, freedom, car, girl, retirement age, appearance, satisfaction with birth country etc etc... Over the past few years I have put together over 100 pages on notes on thaiophilia...

  6. #6
    Excitable Boy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I did mention contractual lease extensions that would bring it up to 90 years
    Seeing as you've no clue I'll put section 540 here for you in full with the correct and relevant text highlighted in bold

    Section 540: 'The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal'.
    I think you are misinterpreting the passage- it means you cannot sign a 40-year lease (or any period over 30-years- if you sign a 40-year lease, it will only be valid for 30-years)- you can, however, include renewals (also for up to 30-year periods each, but not to exceed 30-years each).

    I don't know what point you're trying to make here.
    There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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  7. #7
    Excitable Boy
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    [quote=Spin;1359451]
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    and make sure there are two automatic extensions (bringing it up to 90 years)
    If you include the 2 automatic extensions in the lease the land office will reduce the term to 30 years for you, no questions asked, as per section 540, shown clearly, above, just for you.

    Wrong- each extension is looked upon as separate- if you include a single extension for a period of over 30-years, it will be reduced to 30-years- if you allow for more than one extension, it's a different story.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I don't know what point you're trying to make here.
    The point is that any lease that is required beyond 30 years can only have a clause that says the current lessee has first option to renew at the end of the 30 years.

    It's an option, it's not legally enforcable by the lessee.

    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    you can, however, include renewals
    No you cant. These will be tossed out of the land office as per section 540

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    if you allow for more than one extension, it's a different story.
    Show me the section in Civil and Commercial code that states this.

    * The red is for posting disinformation on a relevant legal topic.

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    There is nothing in Thai law that allows more than 30 years. Extentions are at the up to the land owner.
    You can put it in a contract but at the death a court will rule in favour of the Thais.
    I would post a true copy of the contract as issued by the land office, ie the only truelly legal document but I don't have a scanner.
    Falling asleep and waking up is not the same as passing out and coming to.

  11. #11
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    Section 540: 'The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal'.
    Section 564: 'A contract of hire is extinguished at the end of the agreed period without notice'.
    The lease may be renewed, however, a promise in the current lease to renew the lease is generally a personal right (i.e. it follows the parties to the agreement and not the land).
    Registered and personal rights
    In lease or leasehold agreements (or usufruct agreements) it is important to distinguish real rights (or real lease rights) from personal rights (non-lease rights). Real rights are attached to the real property rather than a person and are enforceable against third parties (e.g. transferee owners). Real lease rights follow the title of the property rather than the person. If the owner of the property dies, or transfers ownership of the property during the lease, the property transfers including the real rights it is burdened with. Personal rights will generally not follow the title to the property but the person. If the person dies a personal right or obligation dies with him. Personal rights and obligations are contractual promises relating to the property between the parties signing to the lease agreement only (e.g. under present law a promise to renew the lease).







    Thai land & house lease law explained | ‘Hire of real estate property’ (property lease)

  12. #12
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
    I'll get the translation.
    Cheers.

    It would be great if you could find a way of posting it on here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jandajoy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
    I would post a true copy of the contract as issued by the land office, ie the only truelly legal document but I don't have a scanner.

    A lease contract ?
    Does it resemble the one above in any way?
    I am going by this:

    Thai land & house lease law explained | ‘Hire of real estate property’ (property lease)
    Yep, if they don't want to renew they don't have to.

  14. #14
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    The problem is that you can draw up any contract you like but renewals are not mentioned in Thai law.
    Obviously they want the tax again.
    The other problem may well be that when you sign the "real" lease as issued by the land office which is a standard document and not subject to changes any agreement of extention will not be included.
    It may well again turn out that that is the only document that the judge will view as "legal".

  15. #15
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    So how do your interpret that?
    Doesn't matter how anyone here interprets it. Only matters how a Thai court will rule on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    a decent lawyer should be able to work that out
    A decent lawyer who knows what clauses are enforceable and knows precedent in past Thai court rulings will know.

    JJ has had his OP answered. If he wants an agreement to include options beyond the 30 years then he needs advice from a competent lawyer who knows if the clause is enforceable.

    Give it a rest folks.

  16. #16
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton
    Doesn't matter how anyone here interprets it. Only matters how a Thai court will rule on the matter.
    Makes sense.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Although it never hurts to have one, the "value" of having a 30 year lease is based on individual risk abatement need.

    If the property is in a spouses name and the 30 year lease holder splits with the spouse a couple of questions come to mind.

    Would the lease holder want to stay on the property?

    Is the lease worth anything monetarily?

    In most cases the answer to both is no if the lease is on a property in a small village the spouse is from.
    I'm guessing that in one case where it may come in handy (the lease that is) would be if the Thai spouse passes prior to the leasee. In this case where the land would pass to another family member there might just be some interest to get you out of the land/house for financial reason of gain that spouses family had. I see no harm in having a lease to cover all bases. Even though I do not have one myself.
    "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff....and it is all small stuff"

  18. #18
    Thailand Expat jandajoy's Avatar
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    "In this case where the land would pass to another family member there might just be some interest to get you out of the land/house for financial reason of gain that spouses family had."



    Absolutely SEA.

  19. #19
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    I'm getting there now.
    The only true legal agreement is the lease "registered" at the land office, the lease agreement number is on the back of the chanote, I think.
    All other agreements are arguable, but if you're farang you're screwed.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jandajoy View Post
    "In this case where the land would pass to another family member there might just be some interest to get you out of the land/house for financial reason of gain that spouses family had."



    Absolutely SEA.

    Better Safe than Sorry.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    make sure that it's specifically mentioned that you'll receive full ownership if the laws change to allow foreigners to own land
    Hope springs eternal, but it will never happen while the CPB are the country's biggest land owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by FailSafe
    I did mention contractual lease extensions that would bring it up to 90 years
    As stated before they are up to the land owner, nothing guaranteed even if it is written into the original contract, as 30 years is the allowable maximum by Thai law.

    Thus the landowner does not have to honour any perceived obligation, contractual or not.
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  22. #22
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    Isn't it something with the land lease and extention that is overlooked here?

    I seem to remember not long ago that a bunch of thais were thrown out from their leased property. They went to court and lost big time even though they had signed the 30 year lease with extention time written on the title deed.

    It's some time ago and I'm not sure on this. The owner of the land sold off his land to a property developer near the end of the 30 year lease and the new owner wasn't obliged to renew the leases and thus kicked the thais out.

    I might be entirely wrong on this issue
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    A 30 year lease is exactly that, a 30 year lease, you will not get a signed 30 plus 30 year lease done by the land office, the only legal leases are 3 year leases which don't need to be registered at the land office, anything between 3 and 30 years has to be registered at the land office, they are the only options.

    3 + 1, 30 + 12 or any variation like that are not legally enforcable, you can take it to court and try to get the second lease enforced, you may win but most likely you will lose.

  24. #24
    Excitable Boy
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    Again, it does (most likely) make a difference if the agreement is attached to the land title rather than an agreement between two parties (which probably won't be enforceable)- it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 10-20 years when the initial lease terms are up.

  25. #25
    Excitable Boy
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    BTW- to whomever moderates this forum- sorry for breaching the rules earlier and causing the editing of this thread.

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