Thread: Employed 5.5mo, no salary, work permit, contract

I need advice because I've been seriously ripped-off by someone I used to consider a friend that ultimately became my Boss.

My friend (The Boss) has a company registered in Thailand and was losing one of his best employees, so asked me if I would replace him when he left. I was qualified to do the IT side of the responsibilities but the rest of the job was new to me so I was a little reluctant at first but he kept insisting, so I eventually agreed to give it my best effort. I sat in with the soon-to-leave employee to absorb as much as I could in his last remaining two weeks.

The Boss was happy with my performance and was pleased that I put in a great deal of effort to learn an industry I previously knew nothing about, so I was hired for the position at 50 thousand baht/month. I was told that I would eventually be getting a work permit but he wanted to wait for business to improve a little before doing so. The industry was going through a slump at the time so I assumed that it probably had something to do money. I was on a non-O visa at the time so I was not worried about having to leave the country but I was concerned that I was expected to work with out a permit. He assured me not to worry everything will be taken care of soon.

The end of the first month came and went but I never received my salary. I was concerned and asked about it, but he assured me not to worry and promised me I will be paid eventually. Anyway one month led to the next and I was repeatedly told not to worry a work permit will come and all my wages will eventually be paid. This mantra was really starting to try my patience.

After about 5.5 months this was taking a serious toll on my family and myself. I was in a bit of a canundrum because I wasn't crazy about staying there but I had invested a lot of time and energy into the job and I couldn't really afford to quit. I actually had to borrow 40 thousand baht from a friend on two occasions. He lent me the money because I reiterated what I had been told. He was an acquaintance of my Boss and, like myself, felt he had no reason not to believe him. I was getting very frustrated by this time and confronted my Boss, explaining that I felt insecure working with no work permit and could he at least pay a portion of my wage because I have a family to support. His response was "I have a family to support too; do you want me to support your family as well?" This humiliating remark was all that I could take so I walked out, never to return.

I've sent emails intermittently over a one year period requesting my salary owed but never received any response. Finally this month asked for 5 months salary and one month severance or I will take the case to the Dept. of Labour. All I got was a message that said his Lawyer is on vacation but we should just get together for a talk. I have no intentions of talking after all this time, and after repeatedly promising me that I would be paid, the only thing he could possibly say is "I really mean it this time" which I wouldn't believe anyway, or he could just say "I have no intension of paying you anything" which I would believe.

The biggest problem with my dispute is that the contract was verbal and the work permit was always something that was coming but never came. The only proof I have that I worked there is the daily correspondence in the email archives, as it is the primary job procedure. I also have a database I created, first as a learning tool (so I would never have to repeat the same question twice), also to more efficiently perform my job, and to record my daily activities. I was very enthusiastic about the job and worked on my database evenings and on weekends and was on a very fast track learning regimen. I was actually complimented on my progress and only received occasional constructive criticism for things I was nieve about. Never at any time was I told that my performance was poor.

I need advice as to whether I have any rights at all, and what would be the best way to resolve this dispute. I'm not seeking revenge I just want to be paid for services rendered. No one should be expected to work almost half a year with no salary what-so-ever. Even if my performance was below standard you'd expect to be told so; which I wasn't.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by TimTang

I need advice as to whether I have any rights at all,

Originally Posted by TimTang

The biggest problem with my dispute is that the contract was verbal and the work permit was always something that was coming but never came.

I doubt it.

what kind of job were you doing for only 50,000 a month. Didnt you get worried when you werent paid the first and the second month?

Originally Posted by aging one

what kind of job were you doing for only 50,000 a month. Didnt you get worried when you werent paid the first and the second month?

Yes I was worried, that's why I confronted him each month.

The employee I replaced had received a work permit and was paid promptly every month, so I was a bit confused to say the least. I actually believed him when he said a work permit was coming and that I would be paid. Another staff member was responsible for handling those affairs and I've never had a work permit before so I initially wasn't alarmed by the circumstances.

Eventually I wasn't sure how to handle the situation.

Is there anybody else working there without a work permit? That might give you some leverage.

Originally Posted by TimTang

I've never had a work permit before so I initially wasn't alarmed by the circumstances.

Eventually I wasn't sure how to handle the situation.

Well with those statements above, ..I got to say, pursuing this case legally is the last thing I want to do. Just imagine the labor dept knocking on your door!

Yep I can feel your pain, it's a catch 22 here

Best of luck, and next time don't be too trusting

Originally Posted by mooncake

Well with those statements above, ..I got to say, pursuing this case legally is the last thing I want to do. Just imagine the labor dept knocking on your door!

Yep I can feel your pain, it's a catch 22 here

Best of luck, and next time don't be too trusting

I never went into the position with the intention of breaking the law, I just thought it was a good opportunity to do something new and different. The wage wasn't spectacular but I don't lead a very extravagant life anyway.

You're right about not being too trusting, even when it's a supposed friend. It never even occurred to me that this would happen.

I don't know who works there now or whether they have work permits.

I agree .. forget legal recourse in Thailand. The Thai way is to have deeper pockets and-or better (cop) connections and send in heavies. Since you seem to be focussed on legal action, does the guy or his company have any foreign connection. If he is UK or US based, you could look at pursuing the debt there.

Originally Posted by crazy dog

Name the bugger, why not if true?

I don't really want to do that because it may be self incriminating.

I said I went into the position with no intension of breaking any law, but judging from most of the responses here I did actually break the law. In hind sight, the correct procedure would have been to refuse to set foot on the premises until I had a work permit in my passport, but at the time that didn't seem like a very good way to start a new job. Ignorance or naivety are not a legal defense.

I disagree with having no legal recourse. It is practically impossible to start a job in Thailand and get a WP the minute you walk in the door, so the Dept of Labour aren't going to penalise you over that.

The main problem is proving that you actually had the job. Again, you said that you have evidence that you have done work for them, so again, I can't see this being too much of a hurdle, especially considering how many people have worked at a job without having an official contract. FYI, I had a job with a WP that I never signed a contract for.

Go and see a lawyer who specialises in labour disputes (plenty in the English language dailies) and you will probably have to accompany him to the Dept of Labour who take a very strong stand against employers ripping off their staff.

Good luck.

after one month u shout have quit the job that way he woud only ove u 1 month salary not 5 as now

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

I disagree with having no legal recourse. It is practically impossible to start a job in Thailand and get a WP the minute you walk in the door, so the Dept of Labour aren't going to penalise you over that.

The main problem is proving that you actually had the job. Again, you said that you have evidence that you have done work for them, so again, I can't see this being too much of a hurdle, especially considering how many people have worked at a job without having an official contract. FYI, I had a job with a WP that I never signed a contract for.

Go and see a lawyer who specialises in labour disputes (plenty in the English language dailies) and you will probably have to accompany him to the Dept of Labour who take a very strong stand against employers ripping off their staff.

Good luck.

Well it's interesting to get a positive response.

Actually, I wanted to post this thread in the Williams Legal Section, but I get a message informing me that my account doesn't allow my to start a thread. Is there some special requirement for that particular section?

They would probably be the most knowledgeable about a case like this.

Originally Posted by smeden

after one month u shout have quit the job that way he woud only ove u 1 month salary not 5 as now

That occurred to me each and every month. Early on I didn't think I had anything to worry about because I believed what I was being told. As time went on I became more worried but was afraid if I made any rash actions I'd end up with nothing, which of coarse is ultimately what happened anyway.

Also, it's not that easy to find a job in Thailand where you're promised a work permit and a steady wage, even (as in my case) if you never do receive either.

Not many people would expect a person who you've considered a friend for about 10 to pull something like this. I personally wouldn't do this to anyone much less a friend but I guess you don't really know who your friends are. Some people are incapable of shame.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

You can inform a lawyer, and as one person has said, working initially without a permit generally isn't seen as a problem providing the paperwork is in process. I'm in my 3rd month at my new job and have only just received by B type, the next step is the permit which will likely be in Jan.

That was my impression during the first few months. I figured getting a work permit would be a long drawn out process, like many other government processes in Thailand. It never occurred to me that I was actually breaking the law and I assumed that was the company's responsibility not mine. I'm not a legal expert so I'm not really in any position to tell them how to do there job, particularly when they obviously did it many times before.

Originally Posted by TimTang

Also, it's not that easy to find a job in Thailand where you're promised a work permit and a steady wage, even (as in my case) if you never do receive either.

I just cant understand why you would even start working in Thailand without a valid work permit, I've no sympathy for you at all, this is a mess of your own making

Originally Posted by Sdigit

Originally Posted by TimTang

Also, it's not that easy to find a job in Thailand where you're promised a work permit and a steady wage, even (as in my case) if you never do receive either.

I just cant understand why you would even start working in Thailand without a valid work permit, I've no sympathy for you at all, this is a mess of your own making

I'm not asking for sympathy, I'm asking for advise. If this is a lost cause at least others may be able to refer to my case if they find themselves in a similar situation.

I've worked in Saudi, Singapore, KL, Hong Kong, Beijing and I was actually transfered to Bangkok by a company that eventually went bust. I was going to leave but I was fortunate enough to find another job. That company also went bust. I'm not blaming anyone else for my predicament. I suppose I'll leave if that's required but it's not really what I want to do.

Maybe you're lucky; you have a good job, nothing ever goes wrong, or you're independently wealthy, not everyone is that fortunate.

Originally Posted by TimTang

I'm asking for advise.

Actually you are asking for advice.

The suggestion given by Marmite the Dog upthread is good; the Labour Dept here takes a very dim view of employers ripping off workers so that should be your first stop if you want to pursue your case further.

Originally Posted by TimTang

Actually, I wanted to post this thread in the Williams Legal Section, but I get a message informing me that my account doesn't allow my to start a thread. Is there some special requirement for that particular section?

William's in Aus now so doesn't lower himself to talk to us riff-raff any more.

Originally Posted by Sdigit

I just cant understand why you would even start working in Thailand without a valid work permit, I've no sympathy for you at all, this is a mess of your own making

I started working without a work permit, infact i was employed for three months whilst all the paperwork was being sorted for my work permit.

Name me one person who has a work permit in hand on day one of employment.

Originally Posted by slackula

Originally Posted by TimTang

I'm asking for advise.

Actually you are asking for advice.

The suggestion given by Marmite the Dog upthread is good; the Labour Dept here takes a very dim view of employers ripping off workers so that should be your first stop if you want to pursue your case further.

Yes you're right. That's the most promising advice I've had so far, so I'll definitely be looking further into that.

Some falang employers take advantage of falang employees because they believe that they can do what ever they want with impunity. I'm not sure if this is true, but I do know of others that have been ripped off.

Originally Posted by Marmite the Dog

Originally Posted by TimTang

Actually, I wanted to post this thread in the Williams Legal Section, but I get a message informing me that my account doesn't allow my to start a thread. Is there some special requirement for that particular section?

William's in Aus now so doesn't lower himself to talk to us riff-raff any more.

Thanks for that! I wasted about an hour trying to find the magic button or how to become a member of this exclusive club.

Originally Posted by Sdigit

Originally Posted by Fondles

Name me one person who has a work permit in hand on day one of employment.

Why would I give out the real names of people I know on an internet forum?

Until your "employed" the work permit process cannot start, how can one have it on the first day of employment ??

Originally Posted by Fondles

Originally Posted by Sdigit

I just cant understand why you would even start working in Thailand without a valid work permit, I've no sympathy for you at all, this is a mess of your own making

I started working without a work permit, infact i was employed for three months whilst all the paperwork was being sorted for my work permit.

Name me one person who has a work permit in hand on day one of employment.

I actually worked for 2 years for a company that kept on postponing my work permit. But back in those days they would send all the falang passports by DHL to the head office in Singapore where they would be stamped with a new non-B and sent back. Everyone was satisfied with that arrangement so no one complained much about not having a work permit.

The Thai government got wind of this, because everybody was doing it, and they promptly put a stop to it. But those were the good ol' days, things keep getting more strict every year.