Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 56
  1. #26
    Thailand Expat
    beerlaodrinker's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 08:20 PM
    Location
    vientiane
    Posts
    6,672
    Hopefully the accounting students will sort out my shit. And its free

  2. #27
    Thailand Expat TheRealKW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    1,526
    Quote Originally Posted by beerlaodrinker View Post
    Hopefully the accounting students will sort out my shit. And its free
    Jaysus beerlaos, are you that hard up?

    student haircut - no worries
    Student massage - all good
    student accountants to sort out your shit with the gummint?

    two of those items have no lasting effect, but one could have serious consequences

  3. #28
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Seekingasylum View Post
    Aahh, if only the rest of us had taken heed......
    I should have said "I wouldn't want to make any more large deposits in Thailand"... don't worry, I've made my fair share of mistakes in the past...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Cow View Post
    The Fall in Perth is probably due to the mining boom which produced a temporary housing bubble. The downturn in mining has hit many towns that had inflated house prices from the mining boom.
    Yeah, the mining boom also coincided with a busy oil and gas industry and made the Perth property market extremely buoyant around 2006 to 2013. China's slowdown put and end to the mining boom and oil and gas crashed 2015... my understanding is that the Perth property market is the worst it's ever been with few signs of an improvement in the near future. I believe that it's only really Chinese investment that's kept it going the past few years.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Pretty sure you can offset your capital loss against your rental income, and there are also a few bells and whistles you can throw in- like deducting the cost of your Perth trips because you were inspecting the apartment (obviously), repairs real & imagined etc. Talk to a tax accountant there, tell him your situation. Not one of the big firms- they cost an arm and leg- a recommended small or medium sized firm. Oh, that's deductible too.

    Doesn't seem to me you are in a real pickle tax wise- you may find you owe nothing at all, maybe even have carried forward tax losses. You might cop a fine, but not much in the scheme of things.

    Or you can try to go dodgy, but don't get caught. Or, why not put up your daughter there, if she's gonna live in Perth and you don't want to sell? You can even will it to her, and your tax offences die with you.
    I would prefer to come clean and not stay dodgy... this has been playing on my mind of late. If not sold beforehand, the apartment will no doubt be willed to my daughter and then, as you say, my offences would be forgotten. My main concern is what will happen if I try to sell beforehand... if that would open a can of worms.

    There are substantial outgoings to offset against the rent... unavoidable strata fees are astronomical (around 1800$ a quarter), etc etc. My offshore work is through my own UK based limited company so I am well used to 'finding' expenses to offset against corporation tax, etc. My concern here is fines/prosecution for tax avoidance, if the ATO find out, which I think could be punitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by crackerjack101 View Post
    A letter marked "Without Prejudice" to your letting agents explaining the situation and asking for their advice would be my first move. Then see what they come up with. I used to run a letting agency in the UK and the last thing one wants to do is lose a long term customer.
    This is now my first step next week... I think I'll start with a phone call to keep it off the record. I have a good relationship with my asset manager and I think she will be helpful. Hopefully this will lead to a suitable tax accountant. As discussed elsewhere, a small accountancy will be the way to go, rather than the expense of a big firm. Also, hopefully an accountant that's not a stickler for honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by David48atTD View Post
    ^^ "the apartment is down 30% on it's value of six years ago" ... Aussie Real Estate falling by 30%?

    Is that in Australian Dollar Terms?

    PM me ... let's chat.
    Dave... I'm happy to keep this open as it's anonymous, and may be useful to someone else. I can't believe I'm the first person to get into this situation... aah, BLD below!

    I bought the 98m2 apartment in 2004 for $340k AUD. Around 2013 it was valued at around $600k to $650k AUD, and currently it languishes at around $450k AUD. I wish I could go back to 2013, but there ya go. Capital gains won't be such an issue, my understanding is that it runs at a flat 30% for foreign residents, but is discounted by 50% if the property has been held for more than 1 year. But if/when I get my tax issues sorted I think I'll keep the place, at least until the price improves significantly... or if ever my daughter decides to live in Perth (she's only 8 at the moment).

  4. #29
    Thailand Expat AntRobertson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    36,450
    I've only ever had one encounter with the ATO and it didn't end well. They appear to be a pack of professional c**ts so I wish anyone dealing with them all the luck.

  5. #30
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post
    Don't bother with the historical income. If you want to go legit just declare this years income and all income going forwards.

    You could even kick the tenant out and do bills in your own name for a few months so you can make it look like you turned your private residence into a rental recently when you start renting it out again.

    Property agents do not deduct tax from rent. Property agents do not report your income to the ATO. They only report their own income (i.e. their commission).

    You could have offset tax on historical rent with capital depreciation but you needed to order an approved depreciation schedule from an agency at the time of purchase.

    If you are going legit then get a depreciation schedule drawn up now and offset the future rent with depreciation.

    Note that any capital depreciation deductions you claim now for rent tax offset will result in a depreciated capital value of the property for tax purposes meaning that when you come to sell it then your capital gains taxable profit will be larger since it will be = (Sale price - (purchase price - aggregated annual depreciation))
    The tenant changed around two years ago, and I've just received notice from the letting agents that the current tenant has given notice to vacate in a month's time, so I guess either event could be used as a good point to start declaring tax from. Do you not think the ATO may dig a bit deeper if I suddenly approached them with undeclared tax... and could they start investigating previous years?

    We left Perth for Korat in 2006, and between 2006 and 2013 I kept bills in my name while friends rented the apartment. I'm not concerned about these years as to all intents and purposes I will still living there (unless the ATO link up with immigration...?). I want to go legit, but not completely.

    I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006, but I guess less than in 2013 when I started letting through an agent... it gets confusing... I guess this is why I need some professional help.


    Quote Originally Posted by TizMe View Post
    The ATO uses real property rental bond data from the state and territory rental bond authorities to identify properties that are income producing. Taxation obligations for tax payers holding income producing properties include correct reporting of rental income and capital gains tax (CGT).

    In the 201314 Federal Budget the government announced that it would legislate to make the reporting of property transfer data to the ATO mandatory. Legislation passed property transfer data from 1 July 2016. The Property transaction data matching protocol published in December 2015 has been amended to support the property transfer data. The rental bond data collection will be supported by this protocol.

    So even if the agent hasn't reported the rental income to the ATO. Any deposit to the Rental Bond Board would have been reported.
    Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...

  6. #31
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    From personal experience, opening a bank account in Singapore is damn tough now. You need PR or an awful lot of cash.
    I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling. If I did sell the apartment that would be achievable, but then again if everything was sold legit then I guess there would be nothing stopping me transferring the money back to the UK. It would be nice to benefit from the appalling state of the Pound for once.

  7. #32
    Pedantic bastard
    nidhogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    15,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling. If I did sell the apartment that would be achievable, but then again if everything was sold legit then I guess there would be nothing stopping me transferring the money back to the UK. It would be nice to benefit from the appalling state of the Pound for once.
    ..and I need to edit this - it is PR, work permit or an awful lot of cash. And I can believe 70K sterling (honestly cannot remember).

  8. #33
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    20,896
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    Also, hopefully an accountant that's not a stickler for honesty.
    You won't find those, the ATO is tough and thorough. My accountant has three chairs in front of his desk . . . two for guests and the other stays empty - for the virtual tax department.
    He plays with his yarmulke as well, slipping it forward and back - quite funny.

    They can bend a bit but a dishonest accountant won't be worth your trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    I need to look into this... someone mentioned to me that an account could be opened with an initial deposit of 70k Sterling.
    I can guarantee you that it can't be done in the way you believe. DBS sent me several e-mails recently requesting NZ, Aus and Malaysian tax residence status, tax-liabilities to the US, origin of deposits etc etc etc . . .
    I could only open mine because I had first an employment pass then came Permanent Resident status - without it you can't

    Seriously, try establishing a Singapore off-shore account with HSBC or similar. I've had one for years, never really use it, though I can't remember the pre-requisites
    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Upto until the 70's Australians referred to themselves as Pom's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Just asking the supposed teacher if he is a teacher,as anything more than ten syllables and he's fucked.

  9. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:38 PM
    Posts
    623
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    T

    Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...
    Mendip
    I believe that when a Tenant pays a bond to a rental agent they must pay the bond into an account held by the government's
    Rental Bond Board.
    So if your tenants have put up a bond, which I am sure they would have had to do, then there has most likely been a deposit made to the
    Rental Bond Board with all the details of the property included.

    If you want to use an Aussie accountant to sort out this situation then I could recommend the guy I have been using for the last 15 years. He is based in Adelaide and while he is not dishonest he is open to having discussions about which truths you need to tell him so he can get the best results, the untruths you don't tell him then as he says he is in the clear.



  10. #35
    Thailand Expat Airportwo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Flat Earth
    Posts
    3,775
    With regards to the "TIN" (Tax identification number) banks will ask for one now for any sizeable transaction, I don't have one. So far my reason for not having one has been accepted by all, "being resident in Thailand I am not required to have one as Thailand has not implemented CRS (Common reporting standards) & is not a signatory at this time"
    Thailand are "planning" on meeting the standard, quite when who knows, then will need to get a Thai tax number, not sure quite what that will entail.
    My offshore bank is also happy with this reason - so far.

  11. #36
    Pedantic bastard
    nidhogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    15,394
    Quote Originally Posted by panama hat View Post

    I can guarantee you that it can't be done in the way you believe. DBS sent me several e-mails recently requesting NZ, Aus and Malaysian tax residence status, tax-liabilities to the US, origin of deposits etc etc etc . . .
    I could only open mine because I had first an employment pass then came Permanent Resident status - without it you can't
    Respectfully, you can as I did it last year (2 accounts actually with UOB), and I have not lived or worked in Singapore for 20 years. But the money was super legit, and inside Singapore.

  12. #37
    Hit me wif da Ching Ching
    Looper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Last Online
    Today @ 05:16 PM
    Posts
    12,444
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    Do you not think the ATO may dig a bit deeper if I suddenly approached them with undeclared tax.
    Just end the management agreement with the current agent.

    Go and stay there for a 2 months.

    Get a new agent. Rent it out again. Declare the new income going forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    and could they start investigating previous years?
    They might. But on the other hand they might not.

    Worst case you get a bill for tax for past years.

    Get a backdated depreciation schedule (if that is possible) and most of the income will be offset by the depreciation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006
    ??

    If you bought for $500k and it is now worth $600k then you have $100k of CG taxable profit if you sell.

    If you also use a depreciation schedule to offset income (e.g. $10k * 10 years = $100k depreciation) then you now have made a $200k capital gain if you sell so you will have to pay tax on $200k CG.

    But CG is taxed at half the rate of income (if you are a resident - not sure about non-res)
    Last edited by Looper; 29-02-2020 at 04:35 PM.

  13. #38
    Hansum Man! panama hat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Way, Way South of the border now - thank God!
    Posts
    20,896
    Quote Originally Posted by nidhogg View Post
    Respectfully
    . What one says before . . .

    It seems UOB is an exception, no idea why (I googled it and up came UOB - odd) . . . but the difference may be because the funds were in the country to begin with?
    Last edited by panama hat; 29-02-2020 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Upto until the 70's Australians referred to themselves as Pom's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chico View Post
    Just asking the supposed teacher if he is a teacher,as anything more than ten syllables and he's fucked.

  14. #39
    Pedantic bastard
    nidhogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    15,394
    Quote Originally Posted by Looper View Post

    Worst case you get a bill for tax for past years.
    Uh - worst case is you get a bill for the past years and a massive f*ck off fine.

  15. #40
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Trapped in an old mans body
    Posts
    8,918
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    I want to go legit, but not completely.
    You're going to keep the airline cutlery?
    May the bridges I burn light my way

    There is no plan for no deal because we're going to get a great deal - Boris Johnson in HoC 11 July 2017

  16. #41
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    ^

    And the blankets!

    There's a big difference between collecting and stealing!

  17. #42
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:38 PM
    Posts
    623
    Quote: Looper

    Get a backdated depreciation schedule (if that is possible) and most of the income will be offset by the depreciation.



    Originally Posted by Mendip (Undeclared rental income in Australia)
    I don't think capital depreciation is an issue as the property is now worth more than when bought in 2006



    ??

    If you bought for $500k and it is now worth $600k then you have $100k of CG taxable profit if you sell.


    What Mendip said:
    "
    I bought the 98m2 apartment in 2004 for $340k AUD. Around 2013 it was valued at around $600k to $650k AUD, and currently it languishes at around $450k AUD. "


    I am now convinced that some people don't read what is said before they jump in and post a reply.

  18. #43
    or TizYou?
    TizMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Online
    06-04-2020 @ 08:26 PM
    Location
    Bonifacio Global City, Taguig
    Posts
    6,124
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    Sorry... are you saying that my rental income will have been reported to the ATO... what is a deposit to the Rental Bond Board and would the agents have necessarily made one? I don't understand this bit...
    In Australia, all bonds are deposited to a government agency. In the case of WA it is Department of Commerce Bond Administrator.

    From: Rental Bond: 1985-86 to 2019-20 financial years data matching program protocol | Australian Taxation Office

    Rental Bond: 1985-86 to 2019-20 financial years data matching program protocol
    At a glance
    The ATO uses real property rental bond data from the state and territory rental bond authorities to identify properties that are income producing. Taxation obligations for tax payers holding income producing properties include correct reporting of rental income and capital gains tax (CGT). Ensuring taxpayers meet these obligations is achieved through educational strategies and compliance activities.


    Taxpayers owning property producing income have income tax reporting obligations. When a property producing income is subsequently disposed of it triggers a CGT event. Property is often held for many years before being transferred or sold. To identify rental income impacts for CGT liability assessment real property rental bond data dating back to 20 September 1985 (the introduction of the CGT regime) is required. Collecting data back to 1985 does not change our general compliance approach of reviewing CGT events within the standard period of review.


    Rental bond data is not a new data collection; it has been collected with the property transfer data under the real property transaction data matching protocol. Property transaction data matching first commenced in 2005 as state and territory based exercises under the CGT Compliance Challenge.


    In the 201314 Federal Budget the government announced that it would legislate to make the reporting of property transfer data to the ATO mandatory. Legislation passed property transfer data from 1 July 2016. The Property transaction data matching protocol published in December 2015 has been amended to support the property transfer data. The rental bond data collection will be supported by this protocol.


    This protocol has been prepared to meet the requirements of the Guidelines on Data Matching in Australian Government Administration 2014 (Guidelines) published by the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner (OAIC).

  19. #44
    Thailand Expat jabir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Last Online
    @
    Posts
    10,159
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    ...I would prefer to come clean and not stay dodgy... this has been playing on my mind of late. If not sold beforehand, the apartment will no doubt be willed to my daughter and then, as you say, my offences would be forgotten. My main concern is what will happen if I try to sell beforehand... if that would open a can of worms...
    Not legal advice since you should know to do your due diligence, just my understanding from a similar situation I encountered not a hundred years ago. If Oz law is anything like UK in this respect, your offence is not only far from forgotten but could become a burden to your daughter, because as a general principle when you owe the taxman they get first bite at everything and in your case they have the resources and a juicy sitting target to aim at.

    Let's say your estate is that one property, to keep it simple and avoid confusion.

    Ok, so you die, and they discover your crime before your daughter gets the keys; now she's vulnerable because they have first bite on the property; if it means selling the property in order to get paid they could force a sale and your daughter loses not just costs + interest + penalties + whatever extras they can squeeze in, but there's little to stop them selling it cheap for a quick sale, thereby causing her to lose equity as well. There may be corruption involved on this route, but no spite or malice; they want their legal debt and don't care how they get it.

    Same, but they discover the debt after your daughter has sold the property; wouldn't swear to it but the principle stands, and as it is her that owes them the money they could go after her, again with costs etc.

    Same, but before they discover the debt your daughter sells the property and leaves the country together with the money, leaving no assets behind. Little they could do in this case, but the liability isn't going anywhere, is likely growing, computers don't forget, and if/when she returns they will none too gently remind her of her (not yours) now larger debt. Unlikely that the debt would pass through to her next generation, but govs are increasingly desperate for money to burn so nothing would surprise me.

    Easy to understand, they want their money.

  20. #45
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    ^ Yes, Jabir, the more I think about it, the more I want to legit on this.

    With time, databases, both nationally or internationally are going to become more more linked and I think it will become easier and easier for governments to detect and chase unpaid debts.

    I have certainly benefited income tax-wise from being a nomad for the past 30 odd years, but as you say, in this case there is a nice juicy chunk of capital sitting there which won't be going anywhere and is an easy target.

    From what TizMe has input above, the property may already have been flagged as income generating, and it certainly would come under scrutiny for Capital Gains if I was to sell.

    And I just want peace of mind. To be honest the rental income (after outgoings) isn't huge and I don't think the tax bill will be onerous, but it's the interest and fines that may hike that up considerably.

    I'm going to take professional advice as soon as possible to see what the likely outcome is, before proceeding with anything.

    Thanks to everyone for the advice given.

  21. #46
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Last Online
    06-04-2020 @ 03:55 PM
    Posts
    408
    Just go to a Aussie accountant and get the real facts about your problem, you will be taxed at a flat rate of 32.5% on all capital gains and profit from renting the property
    The ATO can find out everything about your dealings in Australia from any government department or bank etc and if you do not inform them and they find out themselves which happens all the time you will get a very large fine for tax evasion on top of the bill for tax owed

  22. #47
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    ^ Peter, yes thanks for that.

    I was recommended a tax accountant and have sent all the details, rental statements, etc etc... and things are underway. Everything is quiet just now of course because of this coronavirus.

    As usual, there are always unforeseen problems. In order to apply for a TFN I had to get two ID documents (passport and UK birth certificate) certified... and of course the only certifiers (?) they accept in Thailand are at the Aussie Embassy. That meant a trip down to Bangkok last week, all bars closed, however I did get some other stuff done.

    Incidentally, it's a long way from finalised but the accountant is hopeful of having all fines waived and after the astronomical off-takes (strata fees in particular) there isn't so much profit to be taxed on.

    Fingers crossed.

  23. #48
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:38 PM
    Posts
    623
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendip View Post
    ^ Peter, yes thanks for that.

    As usual, there are always unforeseen problems. In order to apply for a TFN I had to get two ID documents (passport and UK birth certificate) certified... and of course the only certifiers (?) they accept in Thailand are at the Aussie Embassy. That meant a trip down to Bangkok last week, all bars closed, however I did get some other stuff done.

    Mendip
    When you went to Bangkok to the Aussie Embassy did you drive down?
    Was the Embassy busy?

    The reason I ask is the missus needs to get something certified to prove her ID so she can claim her Aussie superannuation before they (The fund) eat it all up in Insurance.

    Cheers

  24. #49
    Thailand Expat
    Mendip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:49 PM
    Location
    Korat
    Posts
    2,033
    Ootai,

    I need to leave the car at home, so I've got in the habit of taking a bus to Bangkok. Many have phone charging and wifi now, and to be honest it's a rare four hours to meself... and all for 206 Baht to Morchit!

    I went down two weeks ago, the roads were pretty quiet but the bars were closed, pros and cons.

    You have to book an appointment at the Aussie Embassy but if you go to their website it's all very easy to follow. Send an initial inquiry email and they respond with the various departmental options and means to book an appointment. It seemed to me that you can pick and choose, and when I got to the embassy it was deserted.

    If you need any links, no problem. I would be a bit concerned travelling down there just now in case there will be a travel ban imposed... which is why I went two weeks ago; I also stocked up on my daughter's meds.

  25. #50
    Thailand Expat Pragmatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Last but who gives a shit.
    Posts
    12,243
    I thought the only people/department that can certify a translated copy of anything is the 'Ministry of Foreign Affairs'?

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •