Holding dual passports...

**Sebastien** · 29-05-2007, 09:15 PM

Everglaze, you are right and wrong. Nationality is a right protected in many Human rights documents, YES. For example, article 24 of the international covenant on civil and political rights (ratified by Thailand) states :
Article 24

3. Every child has the right to acquire a nationality.

( International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights)

But that doesn't give them right to acquire two nationalities. Citizenship is an internal affair. Countries can make their own laws, including the ban of dual or multiple citizenships. I would prefer think like you do...but the law doesn't.

**Ban Saray** · 29-05-2007, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by surasak

The same feudal mentality exists here too. Why must I give up my Oregon driver's license if I move to California?

It's all about control.

Horay, I knew Australia wouldn't be the only pricks to do this, all part of that coalition thing I suppose.
I bet we could both drive in Iraq though

**Curious George** · 30-05-2007, 01:02 AM

Thai Wife has had dual passports (Thai/US) ever since she got her US Citizenship. Neither Thailand nor the US have specific laws forbidding dual citizenship, while they both discourage it. The only way to give up citizenship of either Thailand or the US, is to denounce it. As far as getting a US citizenship, you are asked to swear allegiance to the US, not denounce citizenship of another country - there is a difference.

**flash** · 30-05-2007, 08:42 AM

Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state of origin, culture, association, affiliation and/or loyalty. Nationality affords the state jurisdiction over the person, and affords the person the protection of the state.
Traditionally under international law and conflict of laws principles, it is the right of each state to determine who its nationals are. Today the law of nationality is increasingly coming under more international regulation by various conventions on statelessness, as well as some multilateral treaties such as the European Convention on Nationality.
Generally, nationality is established at birth by a child's place of birth (jus soli) and/or bloodline (jus sanguinis). Nationality may also be acquired later in life through naturalization. Corporations and other legal persons also have a nationality, generally in the state under whose laws the legal person was formed.
The legal sense of nationality, particularly in the English speaking world, may often mean citizenship, although they do not mean the same thing anywhere in the world; for instance, in the UK, citizenship is a branch of nationality which in turn ramifies to include other subcategories (see British nationality law). Citizens have rights to participate in the political life of the state of which they are a citizen, such as by voting or standing for election. Nationals need not immediately have these rights; they may often acquire them in due time.

**everglaze** · 30-05-2007, 12:20 PM

It is hard to think that any goverment or court would find any reason to deny ones nationality over dual nationality.
Too force one person to pick one or the other for ( "right of the soil, and or, right of the blood") is not in good fasion.

US State Department Services Dual Nationality
Dual Nationality
The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it.
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

My son did not apply for his thai Documents, I did, and I never did this with the intention of him lossing any citizenship.
With the increasing number of Dual citizenships. It seems to me if any Goverment did try and make people chose one or the other, Enough people could force a change!.

But then again maybe Iam just dreaming.

**Mr Earl** · 30-05-2007, 12:40 PM

^That is about the size of it.
Most western countries do allow for dual citizenship, link

The notable exception being Norway.

Also noteworthy is quite a few more farang lately are being granted Thai citizenship.(an interesting thread ongoing about it over on TV).
Waiting periods seems to be decreasing as the backlogs which built up during Thaskin are being cleared out.

If you've had a PR for 5 years you qualify for Thai citizenship. It's much more feasible now than it has been in recent past.
One more reason to play by the rules. If you live here there are distinct advantages to citizenship.

**Sebastien** · 31-05-2007, 04:49 AM

I asked my partner, a Thai lawyer, and I was told that Thais can have dual citizenships. According to him, it is not forbidden by the law.

I was curious and looked at the Nationality Act. I really didn't see where it's forbidden even if you can lose or renounce your Thai nationality.

www.THAILAWS.com
(look at sections 13 and following - it even shows that it's allowed)

**dirtydog** · 31-05-2007, 07:53 AM

With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(2)There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

Would using a foriegn passport be showing an active interest?

It wasn't that many years ago that children of mixed marriages were not allowed Thai citizenship, nor were Thai women married to farangs allowed to buy land, well probably about 18 years ago

**William** · 31-05-2007, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(2)There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

Would using a foriegn passport be showing an active interest?

It wasn't that many years ago that children of mixed marriages were not allowed Thai citizenship, nor were Thai women married to farangs allowed to buy land, well probably about 18 years ago

Dog,

You are absolutely correct. Then in 1999, the Supreme Court ruled that the provision of the law below was illegal, based on descrimination (sp?):

Section 9.
An alien woman who marries a person of Thai nationality shall, if she desires to acquire Thai nationality, file an application with the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.
The granting or refusal of permission for acquisition of Thai nationality shall lie with the discretion of the Minister.

As a result, there were several amendments to several laws, inlcuding the Land Code amendment that allows Thai women and luk-krung children to own property. AT the same time there was an amendment to the law saying Thai women no longer needed to acquire their husbands name - which directly impacted on this section:

Section 13.
A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

As such, I believe this act has been amended from the version online.

As to the case in-hand, these sections should be kept in mind:

Section 17.

With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1)He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2)There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

(3)He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4)He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.
Section 19.

The Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that:

(1) The naturalization was effected by concealment of facts or making any statement false in material particular;

(2)There is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4)He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals;

(5)He has resided abroad without having a domicile in Thailand for more than five years;

(6) He still retains the nationality of the country at war with Thailand.

The revocation of Thai nationality under this section may extend to children of a person whose Thai nationality is revoked in case such children are not sui juris and acquire Thai nationality under Section 12, paragraph two and the Minister shall, after the order for revocation of Thai nationality has been given, shall submit the matter to the King for information.

**William** · 31-05-2007, 12:01 PM

Nothwithstanding the above, the following section would allow a CHILD to hold dual-nationality. The question is whether they could keep that upon reaching the age of maturity?

Chapter 1
Acquisition of Thai Nationality

Section 7.
The following persons acquire Thai nationality by birth:

(1)A person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom;
(2)A person born within the Thai Kingdom except the person under Section 7 bis paragraph one.

**hillbilly** · 31-05-2007, 03:06 PM

Exactly, my point William. The legal issue is still rather murky...

**man with no head** · 31-05-2007, 03:20 PM

I suppose the Thai government would have to know that the person has a foreign passport?

If the person enters/departs Thailand on the Thai passport then who is to know?

**hillbilly** · 31-05-2007, 03:55 PM

Ahhh, that is the key to the puzzle!

**Sebastien** · 31-05-2007, 06:29 PM

The same argument could be brought in front of the Court for the age (discrimination). But discrination according to age can be justified by Law (ex.: drinking alcohol or driving a car).

However, I doubt that could be justified rationaly. How would you justified children to have dual nationalities and not adults?

Interesting topic.

**man with no head** · 31-05-2007, 07:05 PM

Well, consider my son. He can own land in Thailand (since I don't trust the wife at this point) now that he has been registered there so my retirement is better assured now. And, by keeping the U.S. passport he can travel anywhere I go. My wife cannot unless she becomes a U.S. citizen.

**dirtydog** · 31-05-2007, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by surasak

Well, consider my son. He can own land in Thailand

Well until the next TRT government, then they will claim that farangs are procreating with Thai women to have babies so they can buy land

**everglaze** · 01-06-2007, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by surasak
(since I don't trust the wife at this point)

YES I DO UNDERSTAND!

**Sebastien** · 06-06-2007, 08:28 PM

God damn! When I thought it was clear...

We had a case tonight involving a foreigner wanting to make a will. His son has dual nationalities (Thai and a foreign one). It's a complicated will with a lot of properties, joining other contracts, asset in different countries, etc. Yes, he has a will in his foreign country and wants to make one here.

Now, we had to check the Nationality Act to be sure that his SON can keep both nationalities when he will reach majority and against what I was expected, the son will have to choose at 20 between his Thai nationality and his foreign one.

So, it's not forbidden to have dual nationalities, clealy accepted for children, but it looks like you can't keep both of them when they reach majority!

I didn't do anything, I didn't check. Thai lawyers did. This is what they told me. William saw the problem! Congratulations!

**William** · 06-06-2007, 08:51 PM

Sebastein

You should also note that Thai property cannot, per se, form part of a will governed by foreign law. Wills in Thailand are very formal and must completely comply with the provisions of the CCC (Civil and Commercial Code).

However, there is nothing stopping you having more than one will in Thailand; provided that the Thai property is only governed by one will.

Thus, the simplest and most clear cut way to do this is to have one will governed in your home country that sets out all your offshore holdings and another will governed by, and complying with, Thai law that sets out all you onshore holdings. Obviously the Thai will cannot contain Trust provisions and you now need to be a little more careful about potential inheritance tax issues, since the rumblings the Government is making about these! Personally, however, I think the Government may just be making noises about inheritance tax to keep the masses happy *he says, with hope in his heart*

**NickA** · 06-06-2007, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by NickA

I think they have to make a decision on their nationality when they get to a certain age...though I don't know if anyone checks up on this.

I'm not quoting myself just to show I was right, but - I was, and, infact - I am

**William** · 06-06-2007, 08:56 PM

^greenie for you mate

**man with no head** · 06-06-2007, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Sebastien

So, it's not forbidden to have dual nationalities, clealy accepted for children, but it looks like you can't keep both of them when they reach majority!

But how would the Thai government know this?

**Sebastien** · 06-06-2007, 09:46 PM

Yes, I knew about the inheritance tax. They've been talking about it since February. Here's what I wrote about wills 3 months ago, when I still had free time!!!!!!

http://www.koratlawyers.com/images/Wills%20in%20Thailand.pdf

**blackgang** · 06-06-2007, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by surasak
Well, consider my son. He can own land in Thailand

Yes he maybe can but until he becomes of age, if something happens to you, divorce or what ever, they will give custody over to her and you is forked again..

**dirtydog** · 07-06-2007, 12:36 AM

BG that aint true, I have full custody of my son and have had for the last 13 years or more, ok I foked up a bit in the beginning when the whole family came alive again after 10 years of them being reported dead, so yes I aint gonna get away with that one again, but you report the foks as dead and you get a long leeway time

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