help needed for engineer's material specifications

**splitlid** · 20-06-2009, 09:42 AM

anyho, back on topic,
so can you now, summarise your options please, as the last 3 pages are confusing.
also please can you reiterate what you really need to proceed with the build.

**wanna** · 20-06-2009, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

to get the steel round to 135 degrees would double the time on making them on each one, make sure if you want to go this route you stress this to the contractor as it will double the time needed and increase his labour cost.

hi DD

yes i will be upfront with any potential contractor when soliciting quotation from him

**wanna** · 20-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by splitlid

^ i believe thats not actually true,
the copyright stays with the architect, he basically only gives a lisence to use his design.
regardless of whether his name is on the documents.
for anyone to do any work on the drawings should require the origional architect to sign the drawings over.

yes ideally that should be the case, if everything is in black and white

however there are lots of grey area where it involves internet...and friendship

**wanna** · 20-06-2009, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by splitlid

anyho, back on topic,
so can you now, summarise your options please, as the last 3 pages are confusing.
also please can you reiterate what you really need to proceed with the build.

from various discussions on the internet these few days, i'm given to believe that a typical thai architect would provide the following:

1. architect drawing
2. foundation drawing
3. shop drawings

options are:

4. boq

i have emailed you the plans. i do have more details drawings down to 1:25 scale, but i do not know whether they constitute shop drawings.

i definitely dont have foundation drawing.

i am also given to believe that shop drawings are not necessary for a contractor, ie only architect and foundation drawings are necessary.

if however, that proves to be not the case, i would need foundation + shop drawings.

so i need your confirmation on this point.

the various options at this point are as follows:

1. i) simple foundation only
ii) analysis of whether number of columns can be reduced further
2. foundation + shop
3. foundation + shop + boq

ultimately, which option is selected would be based on what is necessary vs the costs involved

**splitlid** · 20-06-2009, 12:19 PM

your cheapest option is the foundation/structure( roof beams/slab) etc option.
you definately wont be cutting down on column numbers, probably increasing in my opinion. but thats minor.
take your drawings to the local govt as already suggested and ask them to get them done for you.
this will be your cheapest option.

boq you can try and work out the best you can, then just blag it.

that sould be enough to get the builder to quote.

**dirtydog** · 20-06-2009, 12:42 PM

Your trying to save maybe 10,000baht on what will be your home and in most countries the most expensive investment you will ever make, what are you thinking?

**wanna** · 20-06-2009, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by splitlid

your cheapest option is the foundation/structure( roof beams/slab) etc option.

this sounds ok

**wanna** · 20-06-2009, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Your trying to save maybe 10,000baht on what will be your home and in most countries the most expensive investment you will ever make, what are you thinking?

hi DD

i have given some background to the situation.

granted, i may have to pay some money to obtain the needed information, but i would like to obtain quality information for the same price, if possible.

also, advice in these forums are free and largely unbiased, so it gives a better idea for me how to proceed ahead.

i do understand that people do not work for free and of course expect to be paid a certain renumeration for doing so.

you may have noticed that in my various interactions with splitlid, i did not in anyway try to force him to come up with the foundation drawings for free.

ideally, friends and business should not mix. but if they do, maybe friendship price, but not free.

i was just waiting to see if splitlid might come up with a quotation.

but he isnt interested, so i respect his decision

**lob** · 21-06-2009, 12:08 PM

ive been to great pains to reply, as nobody can wind me up face to face as i'm too astute, its been done once. your whole thread is absurd, well not the thread as much as you wanna. your building a f#### house not a nuclear power station. i do enjoy all the building threads as its one of my main hobbies. the underlying theme tho, is, that its all good fun by the proposed tennant, some know a little and one in particular knows fuck all but has read a lot and understood fuck all, no prises for the correct answer. not sure where you're comming from or what you're after, no ones going to step up and build it for you or pay for it, so stop the bull shit you're becoming boreing. if you want the details of the ampure architect and builder that i told you about before, ring my wife on the number, i think u have. this will be my last word to you as your whole aproach is farsical. sorry to be blunt mate but a prick is just that.

**splitlid** · 21-06-2009, 12:13 PM

ouch

**wanna** · 21-06-2009, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by lob

ive been to great pains to reply, as nobody can wind me up face to face as i'm too astute, its been done once. your whole thread is absurd, well not the thread as much as you wanna. your building a f#### house not a nuclear power station. i do enjoy all the building threads as its one of my main hobbies. the underlying theme tho, is, that its all good fun by the proposed tennant, some know a little and one in particular knows fuck all but has read a lot and understood fuck all, no prises for the correct answer. not sure where you're comming from or what you're after, no ones going to step up and build it for you or pay for it, so stop the bull shit you're becoming boreing. if you want the details of the ampure architect and builder that i told you about before, ring my wife on the number, i think u have. this will be my last word to you as your whole aproach is farsical. sorry to be blunt mate but a prick is just that.

hi lob

yes i have been keeping your number but that i have been stuck in bkk till now

i admit that i dont know much about building(as you have pointed out, nothing at all)

while most of the building threads have gone well, there are also some where a great deal of money was spent to rectify the faults subsequent to the build

if it happens, then i have no one to blame but myself. so i'm being overly cautious, and demanding...as you say

as usual i would like to apologise to all members for any distress or inconvenience i have caused them

**wanna** · 21-06-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by splitlid

ouch

yup ouch...but true

**Tomesarn** · 21-06-2009, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by wanna

Originally Posted by dirtydog

Your trying to save maybe 10,000baht on what will be your home and in most countries the most expensive investment you will ever make, what are you thinking?

hi DD

i have given some background to the situation.

granted, i may have to pay some money to obtain the needed information, but i would like to obtain quality information for the same price, if possible.

also, advice in these forums are free and largely unbiased, so it gives a better idea for me how to proceed ahead.

i do understand that people do not work for free and of course expect to be paid a certain renumeration for doing so.

you may have noticed that in my various interactions with splitlid, i did not in anyway try to force him to come up with the foundation drawings for free.

ideally, friends and business should not mix. but if they do, maybe friendship price, but not free.

i was just waiting to see if splitlid might come up with a quotation.

but he isnt interested, so i respect his decision

If you're the same Wanna who is on another forum (tv) asking for "free or very reasonable fees", you should be ashamed of yourself. You managed to get/fanagle the 3d renderings for free as well....granted, Splitlid did graciously offer to do them, but after reading through all the posts it seems you have a knack/agenda for taking advantage of people.
As already suggested, get a professional to finish your little house structure plans instead of trying do get everything for free. Mind sharing with the rest of us what business you're in?

**wanna** · 21-06-2009, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Tomesarn

If you're the same Wanna who is on another forum (tv) asking for "free or very reasonable fees", you should be ashamed of yourself. You managed to get/fanagle the 3d renderings for free as well....granted, Splitlid did graciously offer to do them, but after reading through all the posts it seems you have a knack/agenda for taking advantage of people.
As already suggested, get a professional to finish your little house structure plans instead of trying do get everything for free. Mind sharing with the rest of us what business you're in?

hi tomesarn

yes i did also post on coolthaihouse as well as thaivisa.

if i am procuring a product or service, what i would usually do is find out the function of the product / scope of the service and the costs involved.

yes i do bargain if i want to buy the product / or engage the services, but i will always ask for a cost upfront.

i have read on some forums where some architect complained that a lot of work was done for a friend without a single word of thanks.

so it is always best to talk and agree on costs upfront to avoid any misunderstanding later.

i see that my posts on thaivisa has attracted some strong comments, so i'll try to answer as best as i can over there

**gusG** · 21-06-2009, 07:36 PM

Hi Wanna,

I've got some great structural drawings that I had done by an Ampure architect for single story and double story buildings (only cost me an arm and a leg), together with detailed boq's for every aspect of construction.

These were also supplied with all the relevant building permits and licenses, but apparently, as you don't need any of these, it would be no good to you if I sent any them to you.

If any other "friends" that want a favour for "free" would like to have a look, please Pm me,and I'll "think" about it.

PS: Good luck with your "free home"

**dirtydog** · 21-06-2009, 09:09 PM

Its nothing to do with the free home or anything like that, anybody that does the structural stuff has to spend time looking at the plans, the time he has to spend looking at the plans he might as well have done the structural stuff and the plans, its just a real dumb situation to be in, civil engineers decide what will stand up, architheques have fancifull poofy ideas of what would look good, but the civil engineer makes the decision and he don't care about your pink curtains.

**Up2U** · 27-06-2009, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by wanna

Originally Posted by splitlid

dear wanna, i think you really need to start from the beginning.
firstly you need to get your archiect to sort out all the issues with your drawings, and supply you with the foundations and beams/columns etc. that will then be a 'full set' of working drawings.
without these the builder cannot build the house!!! (well he may, but it will be wrong).

secondly you need a boq, this can either come from you architect, or your builder.
your builder may not give you a boq, especially as you are a labour only job.
so you may have to do it yourself!!!!
i know, i know, seems daunting doesnt it, but it is possible. start today by working out how many sqm of blocks you will need. post ya answer here.

hi splitlid

1. for wallstones, i need 15m x 4m x 4 walls = 240m2

2. similar amount for red bricks, but to get the number of red bricks, i have to find out the lateral surface area of each brick. then use 240m2 to divide by the surface area to get the number of bricks needed

3. for floor area, aproximately 225m2 x 2(both storeys) = 450m2 of sandstone/marble/granite

these are i think the superficial parts.

1. more important is the m3 of sand, cement, stone.
2. plus the length of water pipes with the associated number of t and u joints.
3 and of course the rebar

pls mark my answers

thanks

Soooooo ....

All your walls are single-skin?

Which, if any, are load-bearing?

Are the walls to be built within a concrete frame and are merely to keep the weather out?

Previously I saw a remark that you had the architectural drawings, but not the foundation drawings. It is normal for an architect to employ a structural engineer to do these works for him - as well as to point out all the other mistakes the architect has made.

If you are having electricity and plumbing installed, I very much doubt that single-skin brick will be suitable anywhere - concrete block walls may have to be used. (Hollow blocks except where you are chasing-in pipes and conduits.

Speaking of conduits - make sure your builder uses them - it is very popular to run domestic power and light cables on the surface in Thailand and it looks bloody awful.

I may comment further when I have read more, but I have only just started page 2.

**Up2U** · 27-06-2009, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by wanna

Originally Posted by splitlid

anyho, back on topic,
so can you now, summarise your options please, as the last 3 pages are confusing.
also please can you reiterate what you really need to proceed with the build.

from various discussions on the internet these few days, i'm given to believe that a typical thai architect would provide the following:

1. architect drawing
2. foundation drawing
3. shop drawings

options are:

4. boq

i have emailed you the plans. i do have more details drawings down to 1:25 scale, but i do not know whether they constitute shop drawings.

i definitely dont have foundation drawing.

i am also given to believe that shop drawings are not necessary for a contractor, ie only architect and foundation drawings are necessary.

if however, that proves to be not the case, i would need foundation + shop drawings.

so i need your confirmation on this point.

the various options at this point are as follows:

1. i) simple foundation only
ii) analysis of whether number of columns can be reduced further
2. foundation + shop
3. foundation + shop + boq

ultimately, which option is selected would be based on what is necessary vs the costs involved

It is customary for the Contractor to produce the shop-drawings, as these then demonstrate that he fully understands the work that he is expected to do.

The supervising architect (not necessarily the same as the design architect) will then approve/disapprove the shop-drawings, with/without comments.

Reading your posts it seems that you are assuming the role of supervising architect, and therefore assuming all responsibility for the construction process.

Be warned that this is very dangerous, unless you have the skills and the professional indemnity cover.

**Up2U** · 27-06-2009, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by wanna

hi tomesarn

yes i did also post on coolthaihouse as well as thaivisa.

As I'm banned for life on TV I didn't see your postings there.

You did not answer the question about your own profession / discipline, but I am sure you are aware that we all have spent years learning our craft and that the experience is worth at least a token payment.

I am a civil engineer, but I would still expect to pay an architect to design the space and layout of a new home, as well as a contractor to build it. If I was supervising the construction, which I have done on work up to and including nuclear power plants, I would also employ skilled engineers from mechanical and electrical disciplines to supervise their specialities.

We may have the reputation of bum-crack boys, but even when building a single house there should be an element of professionalism at all levels.

Sadly with many Thai contractors you will not gt this, even at foreman level. If you cannot keep the standards up with your own experience, then the worst of the Cambodian/Burmese refugee labour will be on your site and will cost you many times the savings you hope to make by dispensing with a few professionals.

You don't need expat help, but you do need professional help and I would suggest that you find local engineers that will be willing to supervise the job. You can then supervise them.

And please let the contractor buy the materials - he will have standing arrangements with suppliers for discounts, for late-billing and so on - which will mean that his quote of labour+materials will be far lower than his quote to you of labour-only with you supplying materials (when they are available). And what about plant (excavators, compactors, concrete mixers, vibrators, etc., etc.)? Who supplies?

Really, you are heading for heartbreak.

**wanna** · 04-07-2009, 02:12 PM

hi up2u

been in the village these few weeks so dont log on as often.

thanks for your sincere and honest comments

really appreciate it and will try my besy to avoid the pitfalls

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