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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat klong toey's Avatar
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    Suspected intruder stabbed to death in Bramhall burglary

    If two intruders entered my house neither of them would walk away.
    What happen to the right to defend you property.

    A man has been arrested on suspicion of murder after the death of a suspected intruder at a Greater Manchester house.

    Police found a man, aged in his 30s, with knife injuries after they were called to a house in Midland Road, Bramhall, at 19:50 BST on Saturday.

    He was given first aid by paramedics and responding officers, but died a short time afterwards. A second man fled the scene.

    A 39-year-old man believed to be the householder has been arrested.
    BBC News - Suspected intruder stabbed to death in Bramhall burglary

  2. #2

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    dirtydog's Avatar
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    klong toey, I'm taking a wild guess and saying your american, being able to protect your own home is a new idea in the UK, it started last year sometime, before that if you killed or injured a burglar you would be jailed, now they arrest and investigate to see if it was justified and in some cases let them off for protecting their own home.

  3. #3
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    Actually, you've always been able to protect your house using "reasonable" force, which is usually interpreted as not shooting an unarmed person.

    But as most burglars are now armed, the law is being changed to make it less likely you will be charged with murder if an armed invader enters your property and you end up killing him - it is to be considered self defence.

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    Thailand Expat klong toey's Avatar
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    No i am English born in Sussex,i thought the government said we could protect our property with reasonable force.

    Off topic but as i type my house getting buzzed by Spitfires,Battle of Britain fly pass.
    Cool love the sound of those engines.
    Btw DD you know how to offend people,American.

  5. #5
    Member Albert Shagnasty's Avatar
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    Baseball bat to the body (using all your strength) to knock said fucker into convulsions while not deadly. best advice until the UK has a clear law that home invasion can be dealt with in any way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    "reasonable" force, which is usually interpreted as not shooting an unarmed person.
    Like that 60 year old farmer who shot those 2 20 odd year old pikeys and was sent to prison, well Rambo, when your 60 and confronted in your house with 2 20 odd year old pikeys I am sure you will be able to restrain them with your bare hands.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    "reasonable" force, which is usually interpreted as not shooting an unarmed person.
    Like that 60 year old farmer who shot those 2 20 odd year old pikeys and was sent to prison, well Rambo, when your 60 and confronted in your house with 2 20 odd year old pikeys I am sure you will be able to restrain them with your bare hands.
    DD, have you been on the piss again, you idiot?

    I'm saying that the laws did not permit that, and the Tony Martin case was the perfect example.

    But the attitude has changed under this government, and if you cast your beer-addled mind back a few months, they took a home owner into custody for killing a burglar and released him without charge.

    The argument with Tony Martin was that killing them was excessive force.

    To quote: "English law permits one person to kill another in self defence only if the person defending him or herself uses no more than "reasonable force"; it is the responsibility of the jury to determine whether or not an unreasonable amount of force was used".

    Martin's jury were given the option of convicting him only of manslaughter, but they (stupidly in my book) found him guilty of murder. It was reduced to manslaughter on appeal.

    I'm OK with people killing burglars - how do you know if they aren't drug crazed mental cases?

    People should not be forced into such a decision. If someone invades your property, you should be able to take the fuckers down, end of.

  8. #8
    Thailand Expat klong toey's Avatar
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    Harry gets my vote.
    Reservoir Of Dogs,tie them to a chair douse with petrol,slice dice and ignite.

  9. #9
    Member Albert Shagnasty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    "reasonable" force, which is usually interpreted as not shooting an unarmed person.
    Like that 60 year old farmer who shot those 2 20 odd year old pikeys and was sent to prison, well Rambo, when your 60 and confronted in your house with 2 20 odd year old pikeys I am sure you will be able to restrain them with your bare hands.
    DD, have you been on the piss again, you idiot?

    I'm saying that the laws did not permit that, and the Tony Martin case was the perfect example.

    But the attitude has changed under this government, and if you cast your beer-addled mind back a few months, they took a home owner into custody for killing a burglar and released him without charge.

    The argument with Tony Martin was that killing them was excessive force.

    To quote: "English law permits one person to kill another in self defence only if the person defending him or herself uses no more than "reasonable force"; it is the responsibility of the jury to determine whether or not an unreasonable amount of force was used".

    Martin's jury were given the option of convicting him only of manslaughter, but they (stupidly in my book) found him guilty of murder. It was reduced to manslaughter on appeal.

    I'm OK with people killing burglars - how do you know if they aren't drug crazed mental cases?

    People should not be forced into such a decision. If someone invades your property, you should be able to take the fuckers down, end of.
    i think that the law is typical british fairness, but is outdated.

    its not the same - if it's the middle of the day, you can see someone is un-armed and you shoot them, - and waking up in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere in the pitch black and having who knows fuck (more than one) coming at you and shooting them. times have changed, people have changed and so laws need to be adjusted accordingly.
    "Cross the bridges when you come to them son"
    Grand Dad Shagnasty

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by klong toey View Post
    Harry gets my vote.
    Reservoir Of Dogs,tie them to a chair douse with petrol,slice dice and ignite.
    Duncan Ferguson twice caught home invaders. When the police had finished peeling them off the floor, in neither case did they press any charges.

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    there's been a couple of events like this recently, both of the home / business owners were arrested but neither charged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by klong toey View Post
    Harry gets my vote.
    Reservoir Of Dogs,tie them to a chair douse with petrol,slice dice and ignite.
    Duncan Ferguson twice caught home invaders. When the police had finished peeling them off the floor, in neither case did they press any charges.

    I suspect Duncan was merely attempting to restrain them and they very foolishly resisted


    Much depends on what story one wishes to tell the police when they arrive at the property or afterwards during an interview. Just make sure it tallies with the evidence left at the scene.

    'Reasonable force' being the key

  13. #13
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    Bramhall is in Stockport which is Greater Manchesters most affluent borough. However, dotted throughout Stockport are the usual scumbag councill estates. Midland Road has council housing on one side and private housing on the other. While the welfare state in the UK rewards the dreggs to have ever more children and one generation passes its defective genes on to the next then this problem will for ever be on the increase. Glad the toe rag in this report is dead but there are thousands more were he came from. I hate this town (Stockport) and i hate this country.

  14. #14
    Thailand Expat Jesus Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    klong toey, I'm taking a wild guess and saying your american, being able to protect your own home is a new idea in the UK, it started last year sometime, before that if you killed or injured a burglar you would be jailed, now they arrest and investigate to see if it was justified and in some cases let them off for protecting their own home.



    Protecting one's home was the idea of the British which was adopted by the US. So the idea isn't new at all. Unfortunately, the British people allowed the government to slowly take away their rights to protect over the last century.

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    It happened twice to Duncan Ferguson. lol. Twice people broke in and twice they woke him up and got launched. The first time it happened he broke his wrist and couldn't play for Everton for a month.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtydog View Post
    klong toey, I'm taking a wild guess and saying your american, being able to protect your own home is a new idea in the UK, it started last year sometime, before that if you killed or injured a burglar you would be jailed, now they arrest and investigate to see if it was justified and in some cases let them off for protecting their own home.
    Sorry DD but our legal system came from yours sometime around 1776, and at common law, defense of self and property was valid. Britain drifted off into liberal insanity sometime in the 20th Century, and I certainly hope they reconsider their foolishness.

    It's beyond me how any judge could sentence or prosecutor could prosecute someone like this and live with their conscience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobR
    It's beyond me how any judge could sentence or prosecutor could prosecute someone like this and live with their conscience.
    Yep, we can only hope they find themselves in a similar situation.

  18. #18
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    Would it help if you put stickers on your windows and doors that said any thieves would leave in a body bag? Would that be considered a disclaimer in the courts? Suppose you would have to do it in multiple languages though.

  19. #19
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    It would be comical if one of the newspapers there would run an article on how to dispose of a body and eliminate forensic evidence. The British Government has created a situation where even law abiding citizens might need to know how. If nothing else, any major publication having the balls to publish an article like that would graphically call attention to the idiocy of the law.

    Come on Murdoch, redeem yourself.

  20. #20
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    It's beyond me how any judge could sentence or prosecutor could prosecute someone like this and live with their conscience.
    the judges interpret the laws as they stand, and advise juries as to whether the law has been broken or not.

    it is up to those who make the laws to change them if they are not fit for purpose.

    its the wide open definition of "reasonable force" that causes the problem, that and the fact that juries these days have too many liberal thinkers or sympathetic ignoramus lowlives on them.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnasty
    i think that the law is typical british fairness, but is outdated.

    its not the same - if it's the middle of the day, you can see someone is un-armed and you shoot them, - and waking up in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere in the pitch black and having who knows fuck (more than one) coming at you and shooting them. times have changed, people have changed and so laws need to be adjusted accordingly.
    Tend to agree with all that you say.

    However the pikey who was killed was shot in the back while running away, not that I give a toss, as as far I'm concerned all "pikey burglars" should be shot on site whatever the time of day armed or unarmed!

  22. #22
    FarangRed
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    This is from the Manchester Evening News

    Video: Second man arrested after dad, 39, held following fatal stabbing at Bramhall home


    One of the intruders fled in a white Citroen van, registration MM02 XEY, which was parked on Chinley Close.



    Police have arrested a second man after a fatal break-in at a Stockport home.

    Householder Vincent Cooke was at home when two men entered his house in Bramhall, Stockport, on Saturday night.

    One of the intruders, aged in his late 30s, suffered fatal stab wounds and was found bleeding to death on the doorstep of the house on Midland Road.

    Police were searching for the second intruder, who fled the scene in a white Citroen van parked nearby.

    But detectives now say they arrested a 33-year-old man on suspicion of aggravated burglary. A white van has also been recovered.






    Mr Cooke, a businessman and married dad-of-one, was arrested on suspicion of murder and is still being interviewed in custody.

    It is believed that during the disturbance, shortly before 8pm, Mr Cooke 's wife Karen and 12-year-old son returned home but managed to flee unhurt.
    Forensics teams gathered at the large detached house, which is in an affluent area of Bramhall, Stockport.


    Outside the home was parked a gold Maserati sports car and a Range Rover - both with personalised reg plates.


    James Hutton, 81, of nearby Midland Walk told of his shock



    He said: "I have been here 47 years and it's a smashing area. Quite honestly, I haven't seen a policeman for about three years. "This is a bad do. If it was me at home, and I'm defending my wife, I'd defend her with my body. It's the same as a soldier fighting for his country."


    Nearby resident Dennis Fortune, 33, a father of three, said: "It's terrible. I would defend my home. I've got kids to look after, but I would defend my home all day long. The man must be going through hell."


    A Midland Road resident, who did not want to be named, added: "I have lived here since 1968 and it's a quiet area. I've never been afraid of walking the streets here.
    "You see a lot of young lads hanging around, but there's no real trouble. I don't know anyone who's been attacked or robbed or anything. I just can't believe it.
    "
    GMP's Major Incident Team is investigating and officers from Stockport are working in the area and with the community to provide reassurance.


    Chief Superintendent Tim Forber, said: "Clearly this is a serious incident in which a man has lost his life and at this time we believe the dead man was one of two men who were attempting to carry out a burglary at the house.



    “We have a team of detectives carrying out a thorough investigation and we will use all the resources available to us to establish the full facts of what has happened.
    “As with all investigations help from members of the public is key and I would ask that anyone with information about those responsible for or involved in this burglary or who might have knowledge of the whereabouts of the van to contact us urgently.



    “There are also extra patrols in the area should anyone wishes to talk to us or raise any concerns.”

    This is the third incident of a suspected intruder dying as the result of stab wounds in Greater Manchester this year .


    Homeowner Peter Flanagan was ruled to have acted in self-defence after he stabbed a burglar to death who broke into his house in Salford in June.
    Shopkeeper, Cecil Foley, 72, was told he would not face any legal action after Gary Mullings, 30, suffered fatal stab wounds following a struggle at Shrewsbury Street store, Old Trafford, in July.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarangRed
    Police were searching for the second intruder, who fled the scene in a white Citroen van parked nearby.
    Mabe the survivor can use the choice of getaway vehicle in mitigation

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bold Rodney View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Shagnasty
    i think that the law is typical british fairness, but is outdated.

    its not the same - if it's the middle of the day, you can see someone is un-armed and you shoot them, - and waking up in a farmhouse in the middle of nowhere in the pitch black and having who knows fuck (more than one) coming at you and shooting them. times have changed, people have changed and so laws need to be adjusted accordingly.
    Tend to agree with all that you say.

    However the pikey who was killed was shot in the back while running away, not that I give a toss, as as far I'm concerned all "pikey burglars" should be shot on site whatever the time of day armed or unarmed!
    The American "rob a home and go to hell laws" are worded in such a way as to create a rebuttable presumption that the homeowner was in fear for his life and that the use of deadly force was justified. Even in the states most protective of the homeowner, if the facts show it was a deliberate execution or the suspect was trying to flee, or the homeowner is stupid enough to admit it was not necessary, he can still be prosecuted.

  25. #25
    Member Albert Shagnasty's Avatar
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    What the fuck did he say?

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