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  1. #1
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    Report Calls 2003 Iraqi Abuse ‘Great Stain’ on British Army

    LONDON — A major inquiry into the most notorious case of detainee abuse by British soldiers in Iraq described “a very great stain on the reputation of the army” in its report issued Thursday, detailing a series of gruesome abuses by servicemen in a regiment with a 300-year history of battle honors abroad. It concluded that one Iraqi, a 26-year-old hotel worker, died from “an appalling episode of serious gratuitous violence.”

    The report was the among the most serious blows British army has suffered to its reputation from its troubled involvement in the Iraq war, where its combat role, among foreign forces, was second only to that of the United States.

    Prime Minister David Cameron issued a statement immediately after publication of the report, condemning the “truly shocking and appalling abuse” uncovered by the inquiry and saying it “should never be allowed to happen again.” The defense minister, Liam Fox, described the findings as “deplorable, shocking and shameful.”

    The British inquiry, led by one of Britain’s most senior retired judges, spanned three years and cost $20 million. It was begun only after the defense ministry lost a four-year court battle to block it. British commanders say that steps already taken to tighten oversight of detainee operations have minimized the risk any recurrence in Afghanistan, where British forces have once again deployed in numbers that are second only to the United States in the international coalition.

    The final 1,400-page report found that a pattern of “violent and cowardly assaults” by “a large number of soldiers” from a unit of the Queen’s Lancashire Regiment had resulted in 93 separate injuries that fatally weakened the hotel worker, Baha Mousa, a single father of two. Mr. Mousa ultimately died on the floor of an abandoned toilet cubicle. It also criticized a military doctor and a Roman Catholic chaplain for not reporting the abuses after they had seen the injuries to Mr. Mousa.

    Other abuses of detainees held by the British forces in Basra were chronicled in the report, including hooding, requiring detainees to stand or crouch in stressful positions for hours, depriving them of sleep for extended periods, and a practice that British soldiers call harshing — shouting loudly at detainees from distances of six inches or less. The Basra detainees also reported being deprived of food, having fingers pressed into their eye sockets, and being kicked in the genitals and kidneys.

    The report’s author, Sir William Gage, said there had been a “corporate failure” in Britain’s defense ministry over abusive interrogation methods, including the hooding, stress positions and sleep deprivation, which had all been banned in 1972 by Prime Minister Edward Heath after a scandal over detainee abuses in Northern Ireland.

    Although the abuse in Basra was carried out by a group of soldiers led by a corporal, Sir William said that senior officers bore a “heavy responsibility” for not halting the assaults.

    The defense ministry had previously disciplined a number of the officers and soldiers involved, dismissing several from the military. On Thursday, it said it would immediately suspend any of those still serving pending further review of their cases. Six men were acquitted in a courts-martial in 2007. A seventh, Cpl. Donald Payne, whom Thursday’s report referred to as “a violent bully,” drew a one-year prison term for subjecting Mr. Mousa to inhumane treatment. Mr. Fox, the defense minister, told Parliament Thursday that he had instructed officials to “see if more can’t be done to bring those responsible to justice.” Lawyers for Mr. Mousa immediately demanded that all those involved face trial in civilian courts.

    The parallels between the cases in Basra and the American abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison — including the similar techniques used and the difficulty of holding senior officers to account — have haunted many in Britain. Both episodes involved the abuse of civilian detainees in military custody, and they occurred at roughly the same time, a few months after the 2003 invasion. During that period, American and British troops had begun to face sustained attacks by Iraqi insurgents, and discovered that their force levels, weaponry and tactics left them ill-equipped to meet the challenge.

    At the time, British commanders in southern Iraq were often outspoken in comparing the their troops restrained tactics, as they described them to visiting reporters, with American practices further north. Citing Britain’s long colonial history, they said their troops understood better than American forces the counterproductive results of aggressive tactics.

    Britain withdrew the last of its forces from Iraq in 2009, leaving American troops as the only substantial foreign military presence there. Many analysts in Britain, and some retired officers, described the country’s six-year involvement in Iraq as a dismal failure. Some of the critics have focused on the detainee abuses, but the most common condemnation has centered on the British force’s irresolute performance in failing to prevent Shiite militias from effectively taking control of large parts of Basra and other cities under British administration.

    The last of about 40,000 American troops still in Iraq are due to withdraw by the end of this year, though there are discussions in Baghdad and Washington over whether a residual American force will be asked to remain.

    The report found no evidence that Mr. Mousa or other detainees were sexually abused, although allegations of that kind have been frequent, according to lawyers representing Mr. Mousa’s family, in 150 other cases of alleged detainee abuse by British soldiers in Iraq between 2003 and the end of British detainee operations in 2008. The lawyers said that those cases will now be pursued with renewed vigor through British courts.

    The defense ministry fought for years against calls for an independent inquiry into Mr. Mousa’s death, finally losing when the House of Lords ruled that the European Charter of Human Rights, enshrined in British law in 1998, applied to Mr. Mousa when he was in British military custody in Iraq. In 2007, the defense ministry agreed to pay $5.4 million in compensation to Mr. Mousa’s family, including his father, who had served as a police colonel under Saddam Hussein.

    Attempts to reach Mr. Mousa’s family were not successful. After the family received compensation from the British government in 2009, they left Basra. Some local people said they had moved to Baghdad while others said they had moved to northern Iraq.

    The Basra report included 73 recommendations to eliminate future abuses. Mr. Fox, the defense minister, said the government had accepted all but one: banning of certain “verbal and non-physical techniques” long used by army interrogators to obtain information from detainees. He did not specify those techniques, but he said that he had asked Britain’s top military officer, Gen. Sir David Richards, to redraft the rules so that only “defined people in defined circumstances” could use them.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/wo...ted=2&_r=1&hpw
    Last edited by bsnub; 09-09-2011 at 11:39 AM.

  2. #2
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    Army suspends Baha Mousa soldiers as more prosecutions are considered

    The army has suspended a number of soldiers after the publication of a damning report into the "violent and cowardly abuse" by servicemen that led to the death of an Iraqi detainee in British military custody.

    There have been widespread calls for further prosecutions and the defence secretary, Liam Fox, disclosed that Ministry of Defence inquiries "are revealing evidence of some concern" in other Iraqi abuse cases.

    Fox acknowledged for the first time that there could be more prosecutions. "If any serviceman or woman, no matter the colour of uniform they wear, is found to have betrayed the values this country stands for and the standards we hold dear, they will be held to account," he said.

    General Sir Peter Wall, head of the army, confirmed that the force's provost martial will investigate whether anyone else should be disciplined in the light of fresh evidence unearthed by Sir William Gage's inquiry into the final hours of Baha Mousa's life in Basra in 2003.

    Wall said the inquiry had cast a "dark shadow" over the service's reputation.

    The retired appeal court judge's report, which runs to three volumes, found that troops from 1st Battalion Queen's Lancashire Regiment inflicted "gratuitous" violence on a group of 10 Iraqi civilians, who were kicked and hit in turn, "causing them to emit groans and other noises and thereby playing them like musical instruments". This humiliating practice was nicknamed "the choir".

    While focusing criticism on a few members of the regiment – particularly Corporal Donald Payne, Lieutenant Craig Rodgers and Lieutenant Colonel Jorge Mendonca – the report also passes scathing comment on the role of the unit's regimental medical officer, Dr Derek Keilloh, and its padre, Father Peter Madden.

    Both Keilloh and Madden face further hearings: the doctor will be examined by a General Medical Council disciplinary tribunal over his role in Iraq and the priest is to be interviewed by the archbishop of Birmingham, Bernard Longley.

    The report will be passed to prosecutors to assess whether fresh charges should be brought against any soldiers. So far only Payne has been convicted of inhumanely treating civilians; he served one year in prison.

    Fox said: "There is no place in our armed forces for the mistreatment of detainees and there is no place for a perverted sense of loyalty that turns a blind eye to wrongdoing or erects a wall of silence to cover it up."

    Referring to methods of "conditioning" suspects in Northern Ireland that were banned in 1972, Fox admitted that "there was a 'systemic failure' that allowed knowledge of the prohibition on abusive techniques made by the Heath government to be lost over the years".

    Military prosecutors from the Service Prosecuting Authority (SPA) will be responsible for examining any cases brought against those still in uniform. Despite suggestions that the Crown Prosecution Service will be asked to examine the fresh evidence in relation to those who have already left the army, a CPS spokeswoman said: "We are not aware of anything being referred to us."

    Dan Leader, a solicitor with Leigh Day and Co, which represented some of the detainees, said: "The claimants are very clear they want accountability. We are talking about torture and murder. All that has happened is that someone has spent one year in prison. The claimants are concerned about criminal justice and feel let down so far."

    In terms of immediate disciplinary action, Wall said: "Some soldiers have been suspended from operational duty and military service". More suspensions may follow. Only 14 of those referred to in the Gage report are still in the army.

    So far £2.8m has been paid out by the Ministry of Defence in compensation to Mousa's relatives and the nine other Iraqi detainees held in Basra between 14 and 16 September 2003.

    The solicitor Phil Shiner, of Public Interest Lawyers, renewed his call for a wider inquiry into allegations about how British troops treated detainees in southern Iraq between 2003 and 2009.

    "There is a case called Ali Zaki Mousa," Shiner said, "currently before the court of appeal that will determine whether the UK should fulfil its legal obligations by holding an extended inquiry into 150 additional complaints by Iraqi civilians."

    Mousa's father, Daoud Mousa, was not in Britain for the report's publication but is due to deliver a lecture in memory of his son in London next week.

    The MoD signalled that it would not accept one of Gage's recommendations, namely that "harshing" – shouting at detainees to intimidate them – should be abandoned. A test case about the technique, which the MoD defends, is due to come before the courts soon.

    The General Medical Council declined to comment on the forthcoming hearing into Keilloh but Peter Jennings, press secretary for the archdiocese of Birmingham, said of the criticism of Madden: "The Catholic church takes this matter extremely seriously.

    "The archbishop, the Most Rev Bernard Longley, and the vicar-general of the archdiocese will be meeting with Fr Madden when he has had the opportunity to study carefully the full report and the criticisms of himself in the context of the report."

    Amnesty International called for soldiers to be charged. "Those responsible must be held accountable for their actions and brought swiftly to justice, including in criminal proceedings – nothing less will do," said Nicola Duckworth, the organisation's Europe and central Asia director.

    Carla Ferstman, director of the civil rights group Redress which supports victims of torture, said: "For a long time the government, the MoD and the Army have said that what happened in 2003 was a result of a few rotten apples. However, it is now clear that there were far wider problems and that Mousa's death came as a result of a complete failure by government, the MoD, and the Army to prevent torture."

    Source: Army suspends Baha Mousa soldiers as more prosecutions are considered | World news | The Guardian

  3. #3
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    What a joke. If I replaced the references to "British" troops with "American" the no class scum would flock to this thread. The hypocrisy on this forum is simply astounding.

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    Hypocrites. Proved my point. This forum has a double standard. It is ok to trash American servicemen but when it comes to the failed British asshole empire posts will disappear. Sore LOOSERS!!
    Last edited by bsnub; 09-09-2011 at 05:27 PM.

  5. #5
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    Fucking idiots. It is clear that DD is a censor. Hypocrites and cowards.

  6. #6
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    nah , problem is 'arry ain't real good at geography .................

    http://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1868768 (Baha Mousa: "Kicked and punched to death by cowards")

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    This is actually kinda tame for the British military, they've done far worse in the past, and probably would be doing the same now, if they aren't, just it is harder to get away with that stuff now with all the media.

  8. #8
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    German police are scary too.

    We hear you bother, hypocrites are everywhere. I always stick up for the Troops. I think they did what they have because it is easier to look down on someone else than your own.







    Throughout history soldiers have been punching bags for the populous.

  9. #9
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    war's dirty, that sort of thing goes on, it's not really news in my mind but some people get off on condemnation and righteousness and free speech is a right so let them get on with it, I'm off for a game of pool..

    Cheers

  10. #10
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    Everyone's under real stress.

    We have to play be queensbury rules but jonny foreigner can lop off our heads with a blunt knife and stick it on the net for all to see. His people will carry him around the streets as a hero and we stick ours in the nick

    None of it's right...


    Quiet at the moment.though as it's sign on day in Bradford.
    Do you know what nemesis means?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Hypocrites. Proved my point. This forum has a double standard. It is ok to trash American servicemen but when it comes to the failed British asshole empire posts will disappear. Sore LOOSERS!!
    No, its OK to trash the actions of all these cunts, US or Brit. I'm English, and freely admit the empire that put the "Great" in "Great Britain" was nothing but an imperialistic state sanctioned rape of undeveloped nations that couldnt defend themselves against our military might. Historical fact.

    Still, that's in the past and I'm sure if the net and multimedia existed back then Brits would have been torn apart like present day Yanks, but it didnt and in the present day the US are the great aggressor in world politics so dont fucking moan when people criticise it.

    Britain were the biggest cunts in the old days, now its your turn. Lap it up while youre still considered important enough to hate, cos empires dont last forever.

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    ^And by that I mean you couldnt win against a few million "gooks" in poxy Vietnam so how the fuck you gonna beat a billion of em when the ?

    I wouldnt bet on the US being the dominant world force in 100 years for all the tea in China.

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    "Stain"????? I thought it was their finest hour!!! I feel a brand new "ignore list" about to start up.

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    This whole incident is just further confirmation that we should be sending gay social workers to these trouble spots instead of trained soldiers. Funny how the report ignores the bit about a dozen or more of these guys being killed off by the friendly citizens of Basra just prior to the "interrogation" sessions, and they almost ignore the fact that these captives were suspected members of armed militia groups that had almost certainly been invovled in the killing of soldiers.

    Still the Queens Lancashire Regiment guys did go overboard a bit.....they even shouted very loudly at the detainees apparently. I mean shouting loudly is not something that anyone in the British army would do to one of ther own people. You might get the odd RSM or CSM raising their voice a little bit....just so they can be heard by all present, but other than that...?? I suppose you could call it "harshing"....if you were a gay social worker...or a judge who had never heard a shot fired.

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    The British should be investigating this at a much higher level (as should the Americans) and asking themselves; what the hell were we doing there? Prosecuting Blair for war crimes might start the ball rolling and lead to scum like Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld getting the war crimes trials they deserve.

  16. #16
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    This kind of shit will happen in war, the longer it is dragged out and the more soldiers are called upon to do jobs they aren't meant to do- be cops, build nations (whatever the fuck that means)- the better the chance it will happen. Doesn't mean never go to war, but be sure it's worth it. Iraq wasn't.

    It's time that those of you who supported the Bush-Blair Big Iraq Adventure faced up to the fact that you were duped by incompetent people. Iraq will be viewed as a loss- it should be clear that the US/UK lost the war. Didn't lose the battles, didn't lose the fight, but lost the war. The strategic aims have not been achieved, and in fact the opposite is true. The oil is less, not more secure now. The Shias- effectively, Iran- are now in charge. The Saudis are more nervous than ever. The only good to come out of it is that the Kurds have a place of their own, at least for a while, but that is also tenuous because none of the big players cares for the Kurds or wants them to have a state. Stop hanging on like Iraq is somehow all going to turn out to have been worth killing hundreds of thousands, maiming at least as many, creating millions of refugees, destabilizing the region, bankrupting the US, and destroying the credibility (such as it was) of the US and the UK. Wake the fuck up, it was and is a disaster.

    Yeah, I know it made a lot of contractors rich, including lots of the suddenly-wealthy knobs it seems to impossible to avoid running into in bars in Thailand. Fine, enjoy your ill-gotten gains, just don't pretend there was ever a moral or strategic basis for the Iraq debacle. It's done no good for anyone but the war profiteers.
    “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.” Dorothy Parker

  17. #17
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    This whole incident is just further confirmation that we should be sending gay social workers to these trouble spots instead of trained soldiers.
    I agree...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    Fucking idiots. It is clear that DD is a censor. Hypocrites and cowards.
    what's your point ? that Americans are evil scums and hypocrites ? we know that now thanks to Iraq and Afghanistan

    oh wait, was it that the Brits are evil scums and hypocrites ? whaoo, that's news, maybe you should buy an history book and read it

    typical illiterate American,

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    Stop hanging on like Iraq is somehow all going to turn out to have been worth killing hundreds of thousands, maiming at least as many, creating millions of refugees, destabilizing the region, bankrupting the US, and destroying the credibility (such as it was) of the US and the UK. Wake the fuck up, it was and is a disaster.
    well said, time to call it quit, like Vietnam

    not sure what Obama is waiting, a miracle ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    time to call it quit, like Vietnam
    Easier said than done. The investment in Cam Ranh Bay was nothing on what these guys have built in the Green Zone. If they quit, do they sell it to the mullahs or just blow it up on the way out?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    just blow it up on the way out?
    blow it away, that's the American style

    Obama should be ashamed for continuing such an illegal and shameful war. The Pentagon probably has him by the balls and he can't make those decisions.

    The loss is only growing, so there is absolutely no gain in all this, unless the entire country is colonized by the US. That's the only viable exit strategy.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by robuzo
    Stop hanging on like Iraq is somehow all going to turn out to have been worth killing hundreds of thousands, maiming at least as many, creating millions of refugees, destabilizing the region, bankrupting the US, and destroying the credibility (such as it was) of the US and the UK. Wake the fuck up, it was and is a disaster.
    well said, time to call it quit, like Vietnam

    not sure what Obama is waiting, a miracle ?
    At what time in my posts did I say that the war in Iraq was justified or ok? I posted this to remind a lot of posters on this forum that Great Britain is down in it just the same as the US.

    And butters you truly are a moron.

  23. #23
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    Gee, I don't know, who said you said that? Paranoid much?

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    What a delusional assclown you are. Should I quote since you are to much of an idiot to remember? Your quote dipshit since you forgot..

    "Stop hanging on like Iraq is somehow all going to turn out to have been worth killing hundreds of thousands, maiming at least as many, creating millions of refugees, destabilizing the region, bankrupting the US, and destroying the credibility (such as it was) of the US and the UK. Wake the fuck up, it was and is a disaster."

    Idiot

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsnub View Post
    What a delusional assclown you are. Should I quote since you are to much of an idiot to remember? Your quote dipshit since you forgot..

    "Stop hanging on like Iraq is somehow all going to turn out to have been worth killing hundreds of thousands, maiming at least as many, creating millions of refugees, destabilizing the region, bankrupting the US, and destroying the credibility (such as it was) of the US and the UK. Wake the fuck up, it was and is a disaster."

    Idiot
    I am addressing "those of you who supported the Bush-Blair Big Iraq Adventure." If that isn't you there is no reason for you to be alarmed. Starting a thread doesn't make it all about you.

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