Thread: US Stocks Plunge, Dow Falls Over 300 Points As Fears Grip Market

Originally Posted by koman

...and gobbling up 10 year treasuries for massive 2% returns... Very sensible..

That's just the way bubbles work. Inflation is at 3.6% and the 10 year yield is 2% That is a negative 1.6% yield. Plus you get taxed on that loss.

That is like paying a renter to live in a house.

And people think there is a bubble in gold

Originally Posted by Hampsha

And people think there is a bubble in gold

If companies are sitting on cash as they say, why wouldn't they just convert their cash into gold that way they are ready for the future. Holding cash they are just losing value by the day. Is Apple's wealth in dollars or gold? Anyone know how companies hold their wealth if they are not reinvesting? Are there any in gold besides the gold producers?

Apples wealth is very likely in dollars. Other companies might spread it among other currencies.

The issue you are sighting is why it is not a bad idea to buy gold even at these prices. You want to front run these corporations before they are forced to get in.

Originally Posted by socal

Gold is a wealth reserve asset. It never goes down, it never has. It never makes new all time lows.

and ? Gold doesn't make the economy run, by your logic if everyone would put their cash or assets into Gold, price would be 100,000 USD instead of 1,800 USD and the economy would probably stop for lack of funding. What a concept. No running economy and yet a high price for Gold. Everyone would be sitting on their ass waiting, with no jobs or any business to run. So much for being rich on paper.

It does seem like the gold boom is being exploited by the same types of people who encourage war to get profits from it. Of course not everyone is encouraging the weakening of the dollar but you have to wonder what is going on. Who are the biggest players in this game? Like all big market events there are people in the shadows. jmho

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by Neo

Taleb (Black Swan) was on Newsnight last night and he pointed out the obvious, there's no integrity in the monetary system because the system continues the same destructive pattern that it always has. The financial market gets bonuses if it performs well and bailed out if it doesn't and nothing has changed in that regard, there may be nothing left to bail it out with, but until the way they operate is properly regulated it will continue to drain money from society into an ever decreasing number of pockets.

what a bunch of non-sense as usual, Neo, what does the bonus has anything to do with the underlying structure problem

the issue is about the massive volume of money being played with,

Read it properly butterfly and consider your opinion before firing of the first objection that occurs to you.

You may be able to make relatively small gains by playing the market and feel that you are at an advantage by being able to take part in these successes, but the real market drivers of course are the banks, financial institutions, and stock management companies. It is speculation fueled by potential bonuses that are causing unstability and insecurity in the market, the same kind of unstability that has caused all the financial collapses of the last 30 years.

That may be a good thing for the minority of speculators, but it is seriously unhealthy for the rest of the worlds population. What has not changed is the corporate culture of bonuses and bailouts, while speculators are busing wreaking havoc in search of the next bonus, the population is still paying for the mess of the last financial meltdown.

Now read this bit very carefully Butterfly. This is not about socialist style restraint.
The gravy train is over, but nobody has applied the brakes. A greedy minority will continue to ride that train until it goes over the cliff, yet again, to the detriment of all of us. There is really nothing left, the wild fluctuations in the market prices are not the new beginnings of another golden age, they are the desperate last breaths of a dying animal.

The financial system is as necessary to our modern lives as the electric and water grids, it is a utility required by all, and if it is to continue to function for the benefit of everyone, not just for the reckless few, it needs to be treated as a utility.

It is unfortunate that since the financial crises of 2008 the financial institutions have not been sufficiently regulated and have instead become more consolidated, more powerful and further ingratiated into the running of our societies.

The small gains that you make while so many more lose everything are just the crumbs tossed to you to support their philosophy as they continue to drain the life out of our every day existence.

Originally Posted by Neo

It is speculation fueled by potential bonuses that are causing unstability and insecurity in the market,

again a lot of confusion in your little mind, it's all one big bag of "speculators" for you

bonus is not driving the speculation on the Exchange, never has. Again you are confusing issues, won't be the first time

Originally Posted by Neo

What has not changed is the corporate culture of bonuses and bailouts, while speculators are busing wreaking havoc in search of the next bonus,

here you are exposing your complete confusion, corporate bonus has nothing to do with markets and speculation on an exchange

or maybe you meant bankers bonus ? that is bonus done on private deals, that you will never see and are dealt exclusively on OTC or between knowledgeable parties ?

again you are "projecting" imaginary things to make a case or an explanation for the current financial crisis.

If you want to know what defines speculation, it has more to do with fears and hope, that is emotional human reactions more than anything. Bonus don't even come close into the equation.

Originally Posted by Neo

The gravy train is over, but nobody has applied the brakes. A greedy minority will continue to ride that train until it goes over the cliff, yet again, to the detriment of all of us. There is really nothing left, the wild fluctuations in the market prices are not the new beginnings of another golden age, they are the desperate last breaths of a dying animal.

the greedy minority is there to stay. Actually, we can rephrase that to the greedy majority that will soon become a minority.

Originally Posted by Neo

The small gains that you make while so many more lose everything are just the crumbs tossed to you to support their philosophy as they continue to drain the life out of our every day existence.

again you are making all kind of assumptions, speculators are there for a purpose, they are insignificant in the long run. The current instability is about fear and how the non-bonus non-corporate goons, that is government officials, are being scared and showing their incompetence to the world. That's what spooking the speculators. The big "indepedent" guys don't have solutions or answers.

Well I don't expect you to ever agree or see sense in anything I have said.
You dismiss things far too easily and usually in the most offensive manner.
I made my point quite succinctly in the original post, and I expanded it further, not to convince you, but to explain the point that you so clearly missed.

You are so far off the mark with your position that it would be a fruitless exercise for me to try and engage you further on the subject, but you know who Taleb is right? I highly recommend reading some of his latest comments on the current situation to help broaden your horizon.

Originally Posted by Neo

see sense in anything I have said.

maybe because there is no sense in what you are saying. You are doing "The Sun" analysis of the financial crisis we are in, hardly credible or knowledgeable

Originally Posted by Neo

I made my point quite succinctly in the original post,

actually you didn't

Originally Posted by Neo

but to explain the point that you so clearly missed.

there was nothing to miss, you were not making any points, just vague speculation and connection that don't exist

Originally Posted by Neo

you know who Taleb is right?

of course I do, and again being right in one particular instance, doesn't mean he is going to be correct on every instance. What he is saying is not false, just the causality you are trying to "rephrase" simply doesn't exist.

"What he is saying is not false, just the causality you are trying to "rephrase" simply doesn't exist."

Take a break from being a totally unknowledgable wanker butterfly, all you do with your spurious bullshit is derail a perfectly reasonable discussion. Red sent.

Originally Posted by Neo

Take a break from being a totally unknowledgable wanker

it's not nice of talking like this about yourself

Originally Posted by Neo

Red sent.

must have touched a nerve

Originally Posted by Neo

So you have read what Taleb said in the Newsnight interview, and you're saying that what he said is true ("not false")
So is it his conjectured causality that doesn't exist, or my "rephrase" of his conjecture?
Can you point out how his conjecture is wrong or how my "rephrase" of his conjecture differs from what he actually said?

is it possible that you have not understood what Taleb was saying and just paraphrasing some non-sense exactly like you did with your CDS tirade ?

so in summary Neo, just in case you didn't get it

Taleb is not wrong on his analysis of banks excesses, however the "connection" he is making with bonuses is weak and non-existent. Without massive bonuses, it wouldn't stop the banks from fucking up, because that's what they are, they are a force of their own.

regulations and strong corporate governance needs to be put in place and sadly he is not addressing that issue, completely missed it. Yes, it's enraging to see bankers getting massive bonus after what happened, it's an outrage, yet stopping bonus won't make the problem go away.

hope it's all clear for you now

Well you just basically proved that you don't have a fucking clue, not only about what he said but about pretty much everything you have said too. You haven't even read or heard what he said, in relation to my paraphrase.

This is your argument...

Originally Posted by Butterfly (US Stocks Plunge, Dow Falls Over 300 Points As Fears Grip Market)
of course I do, and again being right in one particular instance, doesn't mean he is going to be correct on every instance. What he is saying is not false, just the causality you are trying to "rephrase" simply doesn't exist.

And this is my reply... which you avoided...

Originally Posted by Neo
So you have read what Taleb said in the Newsnight interview, and you're saying that what he said is true ("not false")
So is it his conjectured causality that doesn't exist, or my "rephrase" of his conjecture?
Can you point out how his conjecture is wrong or how my "rephrase" of his conjecture differs from what he actually said?

So instead of spouting 'Markets for dummies' that you have shoved up your arse...

Because we need bankers, we have to suffer from their excesses, and without good corporate governance, we won't be able to control them.

And making a twat of yourself with comments like...

that's where he [Taleb] is a bit naive here

Why don't you explain your argument...

Originally Posted by Butterfly (US Stocks Plunge, Dow Falls Over 300 Points As Fears Grip Market)
What he is saying is not false, just the causality you are trying to "rephrase" simply doesn't exist.

..with tangible evidence, rather than poorly thought out diversions.

You're on the hook yet again butterfly.

Come to the conclusion that nobody has a clue what is going on. All the posters,as well as the rest of the financial institutions have a different answer to the same questions.

ok Neo, you need to read what you post

the causality that you tried to "rephrase" was about bonus linked to the market instability

Taleb was linking bonuses to financial irresponsibility, another issue

see below for your arguments

Originally Posted by Neo

while speculators are busing wreaking havoc in search of the next bonus,

speculators don't get bonus from banks, the issue being discussed here. Keep up with the logic will you instead of being distracted with your "Sun" mentality

Originally Posted by Neo

the wild fluctuations in the market prices are not the new beginnings of another golden age, they are the desperate last breaths of a dying animal.

how are fluctuations in markets related to bonuses ? I will be curious to know how since this is what you are trying to imply from the beginning, even "paraphrasing" badly Taleb to make a point, a point that doesn't exist or was made by Taleb.

You haven't even listened to what Taleb said in the interview, admit it.

Originally Posted by Neo

You haven't even listened to what Taleb said in the interview, admit it.

did you ? apparently you didn't even understood what he said

try harder, listen carefully this time, do you need the link ?