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  1. #1
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    If you don't speak English you can't belong in Britain

    The inability to speak a host country’s language reinforces dangerous divisions in society – and it is a very reasonable requirement of any immigrant.

    Parents need to be able to write and speak English to help their children progress at school Photo: GETTY IMAGES


    By David Green
    8:13PM BST 27 Jul 2011
    591 Comments


    When the last Labour government introduced a requirement that immigrants who wished to marry a British citizen must learn English before coming to live here, it struck most people as a perfectly reasonable expectation. But that requirement is now being challenged in the High Court on two grounds. First, it is said to be racially discriminatory, because it impacts disproportionately on certain ethnic groups; and second, under the European Convention on Human Rights, it is said to obstruct the right to family life.

    The case has been brought by Rashida Chapti, who wishes to bring her husband to the UK from India. Her barrister claims that the language requirement contravenes Article 8, the right to family life, and Article 12, the right to marry. Mrs Chapti is reported to have travelled back and forth between India and Leicester for about 15 years, but now wishes to settle here with her husband.

    The Labour government planned to bring the requirement into force in July 2011, but it was brought forward to November 2010 by the Coalition. When Theresa May, the Home Secretary, announced her plans, she said: “I believe being able to speak English should be a pre-requisite for anyone who wants to settle here. The new English requirement for spouses will help promote integration, remove cultural barriers and protect public services.”

    The requirement is not too exacting. Applicants will have to demonstrate English at “A1 level”, which requires them to demonstrate a basic command of conversational English, currently the same as the level required for skilled workers who have been offered a job in the UK. Similar expectations apply to immigrants seeking work throughout the EU. Since 2006, France has tightened up its rules. Anyone without a job, and especially if they lack scarce skills, must go through the French consulate in their home country. They have to prepare a petition showing why they should be allowed in. If they can’t speak French they have little chance.

    Australia requires applicants for work visas to have “vocational English”, which means they must be able to read, write, understand and speak English well enough to hold down a job. Applicants may be required to take an independent test of proficiency. Canada requires proficiency in either English or French, and also requires applicants to take a language test from an approved agency.


    Why should this matter? Modern nations are more than collections of isolated individuals who just happen to live in the same geographical space. We value not only our personal freedom but also the ability to uphold a particular culture, whether Irish, Welsh, Scots or from further afield. Our system allows space for personal and cultural freedom – but such freedom is only sustainable if we have something in common. A nation holds together because we each accept an obligation to search for the common good, despite differences. There is such a thing as the public interest, and an intangible sense of public spirit is also a vital ingredient of a successful country. On occasion a nation may even call for self-sacrifice from its members.

    Language is central because we can only search for the common good through face-to-face discussion and public debate via the mass media. The simple fact is that if you can’t speak the language, you can’t take part. You can’t belong. And treating the requirement to speak the language of the people you plan to live among as an infringement of your rights gives away a self-centred attitude that is incompatible with citizenship.
    The concept of a human right achieved its status as a “universal good thing” when it implied a list of things that should never happen, such as torture or genocide, along with some things that should always happen, such as free elections. Recently, the ideal of human rights has been purloined by people engaged in acts of aggression against established communities. These individuals want to take something for themselves at the general expense. But rights that are legitimate and sustainable do not exist outside society. They are part of the give-and-take of a political community based on reciprocity and imply a sense of mutual obligation, not one-sided taking.
    Against this background, the least we can do is to learn the language. It does not require individuals to surrender their culture, merely to be able to communicate with everyone else. Language is the means by which we can defuse controversies, offer compromises, and explain our point of view in the hope of finding common ground. Without a common language, interactions become more crude and more likely to be based on sheer emotion, and perhaps a kind of tribalism.
    This is what we find in some of our cities, where effectively there are cultural enclaves. A study by David Goodhart in this month’s Prospect magazine found that 10 years after the riots in 2001, the populations of Burnley, Oldham and Bradford were “even more divided by race and religion than in 2001”. Ted Cantle produced the official report on the 2001 riots and described the “parallel lives” being lived by local whites and other people, largely from the Mirpur region of Pakistan. Cantle acknowledges the efforts made by some councils, but feels that serious divisions still remain.
    Some Muslims make strenuous efforts to preserve some estates as enclaves where they can assert the values of the Asian village, and other community leaders work with councils on schemes to promote integration. It is in these areas, where some members of ethnic minorities strive to integrate and others fight them, that the language requirement for prospective marriage partners is so important. It is still common for young men to bring over from Mirpur a girl who is not only unable to speak English, but is also illiterate in her own language.
    Such separation is especially harmful in schools. If parents do not speak English at home, it is impossible for them to assist their children. Official figures for January show that nearly 17 per cent of pupils in state-funded primary schools did not speak English as a first language, up from over 12 per cent in 2006. In state-funded secondary schools, over 12 per cent of pupils did not speak English as a first language; the figure was under 10 per cent five years ago. To make matters worse, classrooms in London are frequently overcrowded and teachers have a hard job to cope. Schools get a bad reputation and parents try to escape the worst of them, thereby reinforcing social segregation. Back in 2007, the policy director of the Commission for Racial Equality (now merged into the Equality and Human Rights Commission) warned that segregated schools were “a ticking time bomb”. Since then the problem has deepened.
    Without parental support, it is very difficult for children to make progress. The lack of a common language opens up achievement gaps that can be hard to close in later life. At Civitas, we see this in the Saturday schools we run for children falling behind in English and maths. We are teaching more than 500 children a week in 20 centres, including Bradford, Birmingham and London. The majority of the children are from ethnic minorities and some parents have only a little English, which means that our teachers cannot have even the most mundane of conversations, perhaps to suggest that the children should be supervised while reading a particular chapter, or helped to practise something they are struggling with, such as long division.
    Millions of newcomers have arrived in Britain over the last decade. Avoiding conflict is no easy task at the best of times, but if we can’t even communicate through a shared language we’re asking for trouble.



    If you don't speak English you can't belong in Britain - Telegraph

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ourt-told.html


    “I just want to be with my husband. I miss him,” ..... go and live with him then

    “He is too old to be learning English .... " They are loving the present continuous tense innit.
    Last edited by Bangyai; 28-07-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  2. #2
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    The case has been brought by Rashida Chapti, who wishes to bring her husband to the UK from India, along with 137 of his scrounging relatives.
    Fixed that for you.

  3. #3
    loob lor geezer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post

    Language is central because we can only search for the common good through face-to-face discussion and public debate via the mass media. The simple fact is that if you canít speak the language, you canít take part. You canít belong. And treating the requirement to speak the language of the people you plan to live among as an infringement of your rights gives away a self-centred attitude that is incompatible with citizenship.
    Absolute common sense.........sadly lacking in some people wanting to live in the U.K.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post

    Language is central because we can only search for the common good through face-to-face discussion and public debate via the mass media. The simple fact is that if you canít speak the language, you canít take part. You canít belong. And treating the requirement to speak the language of the people you plan to live among as an infringement of your rights gives away a self-centred attitude that is incompatible with citizenship.
    Absolute common sense.........sadly lacking in some people wanting to live in the U.K.
    I take it you are joking. They know all the fucking tricks to play, they get a free house, free money, free medical care, and don't have to do a fucking thing other than sign on the dotted line. Why should they bother learning English? They do not give a flying fuck about English people.

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    loob lor geezer
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post

    Language is central because we can only search for the common good through face-to-face discussion and public debate via the mass media. The simple fact is that if you canít speak the language, you canít take part. You canít belong. And treating the requirement to speak the language of the people you plan to live among as an infringement of your rights gives away a self-centred attitude that is incompatible with citizenship.
    Absolute common sense.........sadly lacking in some people wanting to live in the U.K.
    I take it you are joking. They know all the fucking tricks to play, they get a free house, free money, free medical care, and don't have to do a fucking thing other than sign on the dotted line. Why should they bother learning English? They do not give a flying fuck about English people.
    I defer to your superior logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post

    Language is central because we can only search for the common good through face-to-face discussion and public debate via the mass media. The simple fact is that if you canít speak the language, you canít take part. You canít belong. And treating the requirement to speak the language of the people you plan to live among as an infringement of your rights gives away a self-centred attitude that is incompatible with citizenship.
    Absolute common sense.........sadly lacking in some people wanting to live in the U.K.
    I take it you are joking. They know all the fucking tricks to play, they get a free house, free money, free medical care, and don't have to do a fucking thing other than sign on the dotted line. Why should they bother learning English? They do not give a flying fuck about English people.
    I defer to your superior logic.
    It's not logic Bangyai, it's the truth. Once they get their free pass they are off to live in their self-made ghettos, where speaking English is not a requirement.

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    Have to agree with Harry, there are many "no go" areas popping up in blighty and not just asians..... .eastern european too.

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    The same thing is happening in Australia, only in an earlier stage.....but the government, and many of the people, can not see that the same things will inevitably happen there; human nature being what it is. They crow about bringing in people to help with our economic growth, but already we have Muslims calling for Sharia law to be practised.
    My ancestors from a few generations back built the very infrastructure we all now use, but I have to wait in a REALLY long line to get medical or dental care, to get served at the post office etc. I resent this.

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    Speaking English

    I was staying at my brothers in Walthamstow London recently and walked about half a mile from his house to the high street one morning . Along the way I passed several groups none of whom were speaking English. They were all Eastern European and not Indian /Pakistani like years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveun View Post
    I was staying at my brothers in Walthamstow London recently and walked about half a mile from his house to the high street one morning . Along the way I passed several groups none of whom were speaking English. They were all Eastern European and not Indian /Pakistani like years ago.
    Walking along the road the other day in Khorat Somchai and I passed several groups of farang, none of whom were speaking Thai. Not like years ago when they were all Chinese.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    The inability to speak a host country’s language reinforces dangerous divisions in society – and it is a very reasonable requirement of any immigrant.
    คุณพูดภาษาไทยได้

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    Only with the language can it be hoped that immigrants will assimilate. This should be EU wide legislation.

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    Anyway, why should she and her husband have to speak English? They just want to be together and presumably if he meets the other requirements of the immigration rules there is no problem. I have no desire to speak Thai and certainly have no intention of integrating with Thai society not least because I have a functioning brain and know full well it would be a pointless experience. This couple I should imagine are quite content to live in their own culture and can certainly get by without any English for the very good reason they will live in an environment where English is quite redundant.

    No, the requirement to speak English is not to facilitate integration but simply a cynical device to achieve the opposite and to restrict and obstruct migration from those countries where the greater proportion emanate.

    In truth, the authorities wish to cap migration from the subcontinent but cannot discriminate lawfully. Rather than having the balls to state the bleedin' obvious they are using the language requirement as a mechanism to achieve what their moral cowardice cannot.

    The fact is, they don't want any more Pakis, Banglas or Indians but are not prepared to say this openly. It is just plain hypocrisy, pure and simple.

    Talk of integration by these wretched 3rd world heathens is idiotic and quite laughable. I mean who on earth from the majority white British society is going to socialise with that old biddie and her husband?

    Do you actually think the average Thai middle class will have any truck with the Pattaya denizen or Nakhon Nowhere frazzled idiot?

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    loob lor geezer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norton View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    The inability to speak a host countryís language reinforces dangerous divisions in society Ė and it is a very reasonable requirement of any immigrant.
    คุณพูดภาษาไทยได้
    แน่นอนซิ จีบสาวได้อย่างไรถ้าพูดไม่ได้ ?

    Bugger , now we've broken the forum rules ..... see you in jail

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    loob lor geezer
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post

    It's not logic Bangyai, it's the truth. Once they get their free pass they are off to live in their self-made ghettos, where speaking English is not a requirement.
    I'm not arguing. I read this to Ms Bangyai who straight away asked where Mrs Chapati had got pregnant and where were the children born ? Answers on a postcard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pol the Pot View Post
    Only with the language can it be hoped that immigrants will assimilate. This should be EU wide legislation.
    It is, de facto, already achieved since most EU countries now require a command of their language before permitting settlement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post

    It's not logic Bangyai, it's the truth. Once they get their free pass they are off to live in their self-made ghettos, where speaking English is not a requirement.
    I'm not arguing. I read this to Ms Bangyai who straight away asked where Mrs Chapati had got pregnant and where were the children born ? Answers on a postcard.
    Why is that relevant?

    They way they give out passports these days you don't even need to be born in Britain to get a British passport.

    (If you dare to be British and live outside, however, you have to send yours to Dusseldorf or Hong Kong for renewal).

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegent View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steveun View Post
    I was staying at my brothers in Walthamstow London recently and walked about half a mile from his house to the high street one morning . Along the way I passed several groups none of whom were speaking English. They were all Eastern European and not Indian /Pakistani like years ago.
    Walking along the road the other day in Khorat Somchai and I passed several groups of farang, none of whom were speaking Thai. Not like years ago when they were all Chinese.......
    That made me chuckle.

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    I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Speaking of speaking English,

    "If you don't speak English you can't belong in Britain"

    Should read

    "
    If you don't speak English you don't belong in Britain"

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    I'm sure that's some lovely queens English.

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    Maybe meet in the middle and say that old fuks can come in for family reasons but and the younger must learn English.

    Fok that, Letting all and sundry in the friggin Joint.

    There's enough Muppets running around the joint already and that's why you guys are in foking Thailand.
    Stroller is a Yerman faggot.

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    Reminds me of something my father said when my eldest daughter was born, "for Christ sake don't teach that gobbledee gook language will you."


    Referring to Thai language of course, bit difficult while we are living here.

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    All this stuff is the short cut to the nuthouse. Whats going on in the UK is an abomination but if you keep going on about it it will grind you down. I keep it out of mind, tick the right box on general and local election day and go about my business as normal..

    Cheers

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    remember one time in midlands ,,the mussies
    had patrols of 7,8,10 people walking the streets
    at night time attacking people looking for prostitutes,
    sticking knives into their car tyres etc.disabling.
    we're here to clean up the area so that house prices could improve.
    mussies had people in the council,,
    And the police were not in the least bit interested
    with these rag heads roaming the streets with umbrellas<weapons>
    even a woman who was talking to someone outside her front door was accused of
    being a prostitute. nothing was done.
    one of the reasons i foked off,,, it was scary and crazy to live there,, a place i enjoyed living until those tents moved in.
    that was about 11 years ago.
    flip side was that their biddies were selling heroin which fueled prostitution.

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