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Thread: Bali Nine

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    Bali Nine

    Ex-police chief tells death sentence appeal Rush played 'minor role'

    Tom Allard

    September 16, 2010 - 3:49PM

    Scott Rush was only a minor player in the Bali Nine drug syndicate and may have got off without a prison term if arrested in Australia, former Australian Federal Police boss Mick Keelty told a Denpasar Court today.
    Mr Keelty and Deputy Commissioner Michael Phelan both gave evidence during Rush's appeal against his death sentence for his part in trying to smuggle more than eight kilograms of heroin out of Bali in 2005.
    The assistance is unprecedented.




    Mr Keelty, wearing a traditional Indonesian batik shirt, testified that Rush's role was only that of a courier in the foiled plot.
    "Scott Anthony Rush was aged 19 at the time of the event," Mr Keelty, who retired from the federal police last year, told the Denpasar District Court.
    "He was a very young person.
    "His role was a very minor role. He did not know or understand , in my opinion, what was the role of the other people.
    "Scott Rush was not an organiser."
    Asked if Rush was only a courier, Mr Keelty replied: "That is correct."
    Mr Keelty said it was often the case that young and inexperienced people such as Rush became "trapped in a situation" with organised crime.
    Asked what sort of sentence Rush would have faced if he had been arrested for the offences in Australia, Mr Keelty said: "My experience over many years would suggest that someone like Scott Rush would receive perhaps a very limited sentence of imprisonment or a bond or a fine, or a combination of all three."
    Mr Phelan, who led the federal police unit that tipped off Indonesian authorities about the Bali Nine, gave evidence after Mr Keelty.
    He concurred with Mr Keelty's assessment on sentencing and stressed that Rush was just a low-level courier

    But he told the court that Rush did have a criminal record for very minor drug offences before coming to Bali.
    The evidence of both men is expected to be pivotal to Rush's appeal, which pushes for his death sentence to be reduced to 15 years in prison.
    The appeal argues that other Bali Nine members who played similar roles in the plot were given lighter sentences, ranging from 20 years to life.
    Rush was not in court but his parents, Lee and Christine, attended.
    Lee Rush contacted the federal police before Rush left for Bali asking them to stop him going.
    Mr Keelty and the federal police have faced heavy criticism for informing Indonesian police about the Bali Nine's plans, thereby subjecting them to possible death sentences.
    If the appeal fails, Rush's last chance at avoiding the firing squad will be to seek clemency from Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who is not known for showing mercy to drug smugglers.
    Rush, now 24, was arrested at Denpasar airport with more than a kilogram of heroin strapped to his body.
    Two other Bali Nine members - Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran - are also on death row.


    Ex-police chief tells death sentence appeal Rush played 'minor role'

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    Mr Keelty and the federal police have faced heavy criticism for informing Indonesian police about the Bali Nine's plans, thereby subjecting them to possible death sentences.
    Yep, let's just have another load of shit killing people in Australia because some poor dealers may get shot if the police stop it.

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    Rush, now 24, was arrested at Denpasar airport with more than a kilogram of heroin strapped to his body.
    Wonder how many people this kilo of smack would have killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Mao View Post
    Rush, now 24, was arrested at Denpasar airport with more than a kilogram of heroin strapped to his body.
    Wonder how many people this kilo of smack would have killed.
    The truth is that almost certainly nobody.

    With heroin most people die because the heroin is purer than they expected and they overdose or they die from the consequences of infections spread by dirty needles or contaminates used to dilute the drug. Heroine addicts supplied with medical grade heroin are much more functional than alcoholics and generally do not get involved in crime or suffer from the usual medical issues associated with heroin addiction.

    You can blame the dealers for getting people hooked on the stuff. But we, as in society, are responsible for the deaths as a result of the environment we create as we try to suppress heron availability.

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    But we, as in society, are responsible for the deaths as a result of the environment we create as we try to suppress heron availability.
    Nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Mao View Post
    But we, as in society, are responsible for the deaths as a result of the environment we create as we try to suppress heron availability.
    Nonsense.
    Most heroin deaths are caused by taking non medical grade heroin in a non sterile environment.

    They take heroin under these circumstances because when there is no legal way to get medical grade heroin.

    Politicians have put in place laws that have created this environment and the voters support them, aka society.

    The drug dealers supply a dangerous product that kills some people and maims many more, society makes sure that addicts can only get their drugs from drug dealers. That makes us all responsible for these preventable deaths.


    Have a read of this Why Doctors Are Giving Heroin to Heroin Addicts

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    Hazz is absolutely right.

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    Most heroin deaths are caused by taking non medical grade heroin in a non sterile environment.
    True, if not slightly twisted.

    They take heroin under these circumstances because when there is no legal way to get medical grade heroin.
    No, they take this drug because they chose to.

    Politicians have put in place laws that have created this environment and the voters support them, aka society.
    Thank fuck for that. Do you want young adults being able to walk in and legally buy and shoot up heroin. (obviously you do).

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    and the heroin continues to flow in Australia - from Sydney Morning Herald

    Heroin shipment worth $50m set to flood the east coast
    Dylan Welch and Nick McKenzie
    September 16, 2010

    STATE and federal police are chasing one of Australia's largest heroin importations amid concerns it will lead to a flood of the drug in Sydney and Melbourne and further enrich one of the country's most powerful bike gangs, the Comanchero.

    A shipment of 175 kilograms of Chinese heroin, worth more than $50 million - which would translate into more than 4 million hits on the street - arrived at Port Botany in Sydney from Bangkok in late July.

    The shipment was organised by an international crime network in the weeks before one of Australia's biggest organised crime probes, Operation Hoffman, arrested key syndicate members.

    Police working with Operation Hoffman seized 28 kilograms of the heroin in Mascot when they arrested two of the syndicate members last month, but 70 kilograms made their way to a notorious Sydney heroin dealer and 77 kilograms to two senior Comanchero figures.

    Underworld sources have confirmed that about two weeks later the same two Comanchero figures kidnapped, bashed and tortured the Sydney dealer to obtain his 70 kilograms.

    more here: Heroin shipment worth $50m set to flood the east coast

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Mao View Post
    But we, as in society, are responsible for the deaths as a result of the environment we create as we try to suppress heron availability.
    Nonsense.
    Nonsense for sure. We as a society are not responsible for the consequences of an individual's actions. At least we shouldn't be, though for decades we've been gathering momentum away from that fundamental concept and forever looking for someone else to blame. Some call it the Nanny State, which is an apt description, though it goes far deeper than that.

    This is a sign of a sick society that's stuck in the rebellion phase of growing up, and also part of the reason for our decline since it directly affects other parts of our culture and mindset.

    My own wild 'Dodo' theory, or infantilisation of society in a para, is that post WWII society has advanced so far and so rapidly with wealth, comforts, entitlement, security and choice that it has fuelled dissatisfaction and demand for even more. Discomfort for society, and pure greed for the individual. So, we demand more and elect opportunists that promise to let us have it, even though it's ultimately detrimental to our own development. There's truth in the saying, be careful what you want because you may get it.

    Anyway, it's too early in the day for a real rant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by genghis61 View Post
    and the heroin continues to flow in Australia - from Sydney Morning Herald

    Heroin shipment worth $50m set to flood the east coast
    Dylan Welch and Nick McKenzie
    September 16, 2010

    STATE and federal police are chasing one of Australia's largest heroin importations amid concerns it will lead to a flood of the drug in Sydney and Melbourne and further enrich one of the country's most powerful bike gangs, the Comanchero.

    A shipment of 175 kilograms of Chinese heroin, worth more than $50 million - which would translate into more than 4 million hits on the street - arrived at Port Botany in Sydney from Bangkok in late July.

    The shipment was organised by an international crime network in the weeks before one of Australia's biggest organised crime probes, Operation Hoffman, arrested key syndicate members.

    Police working with Operation Hoffman seized 28 kilograms of the heroin in Mascot when they arrested two of the syndicate members last month, but 70 kilograms made their way to a notorious Sydney heroin dealer and 77 kilograms to two senior Comanchero figures.

    Underworld sources have confirmed that about two weeks later the same two Comanchero figures kidnapped, bashed and tortured the Sydney dealer to obtain his 70 kilograms.

    more here: Heroin shipment worth $50m set to flood the east coast
    Gripping stuff. Should have its own thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr Fred View Post
    Mr Keelty and the federal police have faced heavy criticism for informing Indonesian police about the Bali Nine's plans, thereby subjecting them to possible death sentences.
    Yep, let's just have another load of shit killing people in Australia because some poor dealers may get shot if the police stop it.

    Actually, the big issue, was that the Australian police, knew times, dates, names and flights of the couriers etc. All they had to do was meet them at Sydney airport and arrest them.

    There is some law or something that says Australian Police cannot give information to other countries that may subject Australian citizens to the death penalty.... which they did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hazz View Post
    Most heroin deaths are caused by taking non medical grade heroin in a non sterile environment.

    They take heroin under these circumstances because when there is no legal way to get medical grade heroin.

    Politicians have put in place laws that have created this environment and the voters support them, aka society.
    Lots of truth in there, and of the (non-alcohol) addicts I have known, every one of the 'educated' heroin addicts functioned perfectly well at home, work and play, which they put down to knowing their friend is a potential enemy and taking the trouble to ensure their sources are clean and reliable.

    I don't know about now and haven't bothered to check medical advances and knowledge, but the 'miracle tool' for heroin withdrawal, methadone, is as addictive and withdrawal far slower and more difficult than from heroin itself. It also causes fewer deaths.

    Also on the plus side methadone kicks in cross-tolerance, so if the user takes heroin they will not experience the same high. And regular doses of methadone allow many heroin addicts to lead almost normal lives without the health and financial complications associated with heroin dependency.

    The question worth asking is if methadone kills more people than heroin does, but also saves more lives than those it takes, which is better?


    Known drug-related deaths in the UK 1990

    Tobacco 110,000
    Alcohol (excluding crime and accidents) 30,000
    Solvents 112
    Heroin & Morphine 153
    Methadone 84

    Barbiturates 7
    MDMA 5
    Anti-depressants 4
    Cocaine 4
    Amphetamines 2
    LSD 0
    Other Hallucinogens 0
    Psilocybin 0
    Cannabis 0


    Numbers of deaths where selected substances were mentioned on the death certificate in England and Wales, 2006

    Heroin and morphine 713
    Methadone 241

    Cocaine (including crack) 190
    All amphetamines 92
    (of which MDMA/ecstasy) 48
    Cannabis 17
    Gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) 7
    All benzodiazepines 177
    Zopiclone/Zolpidem 39
    Barbiturates 17
    All antidepressants 336
    Paracetamol (including compound formulations) 287
    Codeine (non-compound formulation) 60
    Dihydrocodeine (non-compound formulation) 96
    Aspirin 22
    Tramadol 81
    Alcohol* 6,627
    Tobacco** 86,500

    I don't place great faith in these stats, but they do give us a clue. Fex, I would argue against cannabis having killed 17 people in 2006 or any other year. It may have been the trigger leading to some other form of death, but not the cause of death unless the victims downed it by the kg.


    The drug dealers supply a dangerous product that kills some people and maims many more, society makes sure that addicts can only get their drugs from drug dealers. That makes us all responsible for these preventable deaths.
    Have to disagree. Society cannot be responsible for giving the individual free choice to indulge in harmful activities. The alternative is to remove that choice, which will open a whole new can of worms.

    One alternative is to control the flow, but that leads invariably to abuse if not properly enforced, which it won't be.

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    ^Personally I despise the hypocrisy of the "its someone else's fault" that permeates the world. People should take responsibility for their actions and the actions that they support and this is the point I am making.

    Society cannot be responsible for giving the individual free choice to indulge in harmful activities. The alternative is to remove that choice, which will open a whole new can of worms.
    Our drug enforcement policies have removed the choice from drug addicts.

    They are forced to buy contaminated drugs at inflated prices because of the drug enforcement laws most of us support. This is a major cause of the criminal behaviour and potentially fatal health issues; that we quote as being the reasons that we need to have these enforcement laws in place.

    This is why I say society shares some of the responsibility for what happens to drug addicts; because we have taken their ability to responsibility choose to take medical grade drugs with the drug enforcement laws. Whist at the same time saying that the addicts and drug dealers are 100% responsible for the mess. This is the hypocrisy I find hard to accept.

    Nothing will improve until the majority accept that the status quo is broken

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    Back on topic.

    For an abolitionist state, outlawing the provision of evidence that could lead to a citizen receiving a death sentence is a logical progression, I wonder how many other counties have similar laws?. And what happens if the police provide a country with evidence that then hangs a citizen that the police had no idea was involved when the handed over the evidence? A can of worms.

    I think the main result of this trial is going to be a complete beak down of communication between Australian police and their counterparts in non-abolishinst states; which is not going to help anyone but the criminals.

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    It's always interesting to see people compare statistics of tobacco and heroin.

    Make a daily smoker of 6 months and a daily heroin user of 6 months go through the withdrawal process and monitor the difference.

    Do the same for for users of 12 months. 3 years and 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hazz View Post
    Our drug enforcement policies have removed the choice from drug addicts.
    On the one hand you protest that people should be held responsible for the consequences of their actions, and then spoil it all by fingering drug enforcement policies for removing the choice from addicts.

    Would you like all drugs to be decriminalised? Then who will be held responsible for the availability to easily seduced personalities that end up dead or hurt or harming others as a consequence of that easy availability? Or, would there be supervision and effective oversight across the board to ensure that all drugs are uncontaminated, free - so that nobody needs to resort to crime to pay for it, controlled in a way that doesn't allow people to OD, and that top priority will in any case be given to wean addicts off or keep them safe from themselves and others. In other words, we'll make drugs available to all and then wean you off them if your stupidity hasn't yet killed you and you want to cooperate...but of course the individual should also have the right to not cooperate, or cooperate only until they change their mind. It could get even more complex and unmanageable, but surely the point is made.

    Or is it only certain drugs that should be decriminalised...if so which ones and why?


    They are forced to buy contaminated drugs at inflated prices because of the drug enforcement laws most of us support. This is a major cause of the criminal behaviour and potentially fatal health issues; that we quote as being the reasons that we need to have these enforcement laws in place.
    That's a seriously daft supposition with 4 questionable statements in a single sentence. Nobody is forcing them to buy contaminated drugs, or any drugs for that matter, and certainly nobody is demanding they pay inflated prices for the drugs that they are in any case not being forced to buy.

    You yourself refer to the drug enforcement laws "most of us support." Ever heard of democracy? If "most of us support" something it may be that the majority are wrong, but not that the minority should get their way over the majority view simply because the majority 'may be' wrong. That's what governments are for, and how governments serve their democracy.

    Sure we could be distracted by practice vs principle or how imperfect our democracies are, which are legitimate arguments but not in the context of this discussion.


    This is why I say society shares some of the responsibility for what happens to drug addicts; because we have taken their ability to responsibility choose to take medical grade drugs with the drug enforcement laws. Whist at the same time saying that the addicts and drug dealers are 100% responsible for the mess. This is the hypocrisy I find hard to accept.
    If you're looking for hypocrisy you will find it, and if you're looking for utopia where each individual goes through life in perfect harmony with the world, then you won't find it but good luck anyway.

    Don't blame society for everything that the individual cannot cope with.


    Nothing will improve until the majority accept that the status quo is broken
    Pro choice or no choice? Both answers are suicidal, so whatever you say is wrong; the answer is balance. Yet society demands more choice and freedom with less responsibility, when it can't handle those it already has.

    This is why laws are made, and also why no law can be tailored to suit everyone since otherwise there would be no need for that law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chairman Mao View Post
    It's always interesting to see people compare statistics of tobacco and heroin.

    Make a daily smoker of 6 months and a daily heroin user of 6 months go through the withdrawal process and monitor the difference.

    Do the same for for users of 12 months. 3 years and 5 years.
    Common knowledge for the result in advance, and we could add booze for part of the hypocrisy I'm sure hazz referred to.

    The difference is that booze and backy, the two greatest consumer killers, could never be outlawed since they generate billions for the treasury. And they'll continue generating billions no matter how high taxes go or how harshly their marketing is curtailed. Says it all, really.

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    When you see the economic damage that heroin addiction causes to iran and the stans; the need to criminalise access to the drug is clearly necessary to protect society as a whole. But it is the criminalisation of the drug that is responsible for many of the medical/crime issues that drug addicts have and their reduced life expectancy on the drug.

    As a society we should accept our responsibility for this and mitigate it, by providing shooting galleries where registered addicts can get medical grade heroin under supervision. This seems to be the way that the UK and Switzerland are going; the costs are more than repaid in reduced costs for medical treatment, incarnation and repairing criminal damage. At the same time we should clamp down on heroin dealers with punitive sentencing for a drug they should have problems shifting to existing addicts. Indonesia does seem to have the punitive sussed.

    It would be nice to take the emotion out of the drug issue and get some policies based on the harm done by the drugs. The current situation is a mess and lacks credibility.

    We have a situation where LSD might be a very useful pharma for psychiatrists, but the research has been killed off it's criminalisation, we have some very useful pharma's based on useful chemicals in cannabis and the US has decided they are not going to get licensed purely because of their association with cannabis; when the reality is that these phama's would kill the majority of the medical justifications for making cannabis legally available.

    Answering the question how many addicts would die as a result of the 1Kg of heroin that the ausi was carrying. theres about a 50-70% chance one might die. Based on US figures that about 1/100 of addicts die of overdose each year.

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    do the crime do the time, simple as that!!

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    BALI Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will appear in court as their final appeals against the death penalty begin. It is expected the pair will tell judges of their regret and their rehabilitation since being jailed five years ago and of their determination to now turn their lives around.
    Their judicial review comes as fellow Bali Nine member Scott Rush's appeal continues, after Australian Federal Police chiefs last week gave evidence on his behalf.
    While Rush was a courier, caught with the drugs strapped to him, both Chan and Sukumaran have been described as the ringleaders and organisers.
    Their judicial review is based more on human rights grounds. Both claim legal errors in the original judgments, and are also relying on their rehabilitation in Kerobokan jail to help them persuade judges to let them live.
    In the past year they have set up programs for their fellow prisoners, including English, computer, graphics and art classes.
    The jail's governor, Siswanto, has agreed to give evidence on their behalf.
    For the first time since their arrest, both men are admitting their guilt and their roles in the heroin trafficking ring. Previously, both had refused to admit any role - which they say was based on bad legal advice after their arrests and in their trials.
    Psychiatric reports on both, by Prof Paul Mullen, form part of the appeal documents lodged with Denpasar District Court.
    Of Chan, Prof Mullen writes that he had been abusing cannabis since his teens and that since being in jail he has been drug-free for the first time since he was 16.
    It also tells of Chan's religious conversion. He is now studying theology inside jail and helps to run a church service for inmates.
    Prof Mullen's report about Sukumaran tells of a "disturbed and disrupted early childhood" and of his exposure, for the first time in jail, to the evil effects of drugs.
    "He has been brought into contact, as never before, with the addicts and their families whose lives have been ruined. He described considerable remorse and continuing feelings of guilt about his offending and involvement in drug smuggling," he said.
    The appeal documents argue that the death penalty should be used only for the most serious of crimes, and submits that drugs are not among these.
    It is expected that four witnesses will be called as the hearing progresses, including the jail boss and Prof Mullen.


    Bali Nine pair Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran plead to live | Herald Sun

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    Somehow I feel their change of heart about lying about their involvement, their realization about the dangers of drugs and chan's religious conversion are all contrived to try and get off...

    As much as I am against the death penalty, I dont have much sympathy for these two scumbags...

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    THE head of Bali's Kerobokan Prison will testify in defence of Bali Nine death row inmates Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran tomorrow.
    Siswanto is expected to tell the Denpasar District Court that Chan and Sukumaran have embraced rehabilitation efforts and are now committed to bettering themselves and helping other inmates.

    He is expected to explain to the court how the Sydney pair have begun teaching computer classes and taking part in religious and artistic activities inside the jail, also home to Schapelle Corby.

    Siswanto is one of four witnesses being called to testify at the pair's final appeal, which seeks to have their death sentences reduced to 20-year jail terms.

    Former Indonesian Supreme Court judge Yahya Harahap is also expected to give evidence. Two other witnesses will be called later this month.
    Chan, 26, and Sukumaran, 29, were two of nine Australians convicted over a 2005 attempt to smuggle about eight kilograms of heroin out of Bali.

    The appeal relies heavily on evidence the men have been successfully rehabilitated and are now role models inside prison.

    It also argues previous rulings against them erred by finding them guilty of exporting drugs, even though they were caught before exportation actually occurred.

    If the judicial review fails they will be forced to seek clemency from Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who generally takes a dim view of drug smugglers.

    Fellow Bali Nine death row inmate Scott Rush's judicial review is currently being considered by Indonesia's Supreme Court.

    Five other members of the drug smuggling plot - Martin Stephens, Matthew Norman, Michael Czugaj, Si Yi Chen and Tan Duc Than Nguyen - are serving life sentences.

    The final member of the drug ring, courier Renae Lawrence, is serving a 20-year sentence.

    Another Australian man, 43-year-old Michael Sacatides, was arrested in Bali last week with an alleged 1.7kg of methamphetamine.

    If he is eventually charged with drug importation he could also also be facing a possible death penalty.










    Chan, 26, and Sukumaran, 29, were two of nine Australians convicted over a 2005 attempt to smuggle about eight kilograms of heroin out of Bali.

    The appeal relies heavily on evidence the men have been successfully rehabilitated and are now role models inside prison.

    It also argues previous rulings against them erred by finding them guilty of exporting drugs, even though they were caught before exportation actually occurred.

    If the judicial review fails they will be forced to seek clemency from Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who generally takes a dim view of drug smugglers.

    Fellow Bali Nine death row inmate Scott Rush's judicial review is currently being considered by Indonesia's Supreme Court.

    Five other members of the drug smuggling plot - Martin Stephens, Matthew Norman, Michael Czugaj, Si Yi Chen and Tan Duc Than Nguyen - are serving life sentences.

    The final member of the drug ring, courier Renae Lawrence, is serving a 20-year sentence.

    Another Australian man, 43-year-old Michael Sacatides, was arrested in Bali last week with an alleged 1.7kg of methamphetamine.

    If he is eventually charged with drug importation he could also also be facing a possible death penalty.

  24. #24
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    Yep, let's just have another load of shit killing people in Australia because some poor dealers may get shot if the police stop it.

    Good Christ I never thought I would ever agree with Mr Fred?

    Lets get rid of the couriers , no couriers -dealers have to do it themselves - no dealers , no supply , no problem!
    Australia is piss week in drug control , lets have the federal police use whatever is necessary to stop or at least control the trade.
    Onya Coppers , get the crap off the streets and let us non users sleep happy at night not expecting to get robbed or bashed by those addicts who need money for the habit or give us the right to self arm and shoot the stupid bastards on sight.

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    No-one forces people to traffic drugs, any more than they force people to take them.

    I don't actually give a shit if a few losers die because they can't get quality heroin. If you can't afford the decent stuff, don't take it in the first place.

    I'm amazed at how some people bleat about the nanny state and then when things don't go their way they want special treatment.

    As for these vermin in Bali, let them rot. Anything that dilutes the shallow end of the gene pool is a good thing.

    You are responsible for your own actions, legal or otherwise.

    If you don't like the laws in a particular country, go to another one. If you can't, hard luck, blame your parents.

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