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  1. #1
    loob lor geezer
    Bangyai's Avatar
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    Foreigners ó they didnít steal our jobs: they created them

    Are immigrants from Eastern Europe putting Britons out of work? A simple experiment provided a surprising answer

    Evan Davis

    ‘There is a lot of skilled work out there but there’s nothing for people who haven’t got skills.”
    Philip Doughty scrolls through online job ads and grumbles about the lack of suitable employment in his town. It’s easy to understand his frustration at the job choices apparently on offer.
    “Hypnotherapy, I’m not skilled for. Media sales I’m not skilled for. Project manager contractors, again not skilled for. What jobs are there for people like me?”
    His question is one that surprisingly quickly gets right to the heart of the national debate over immigration.
    Philip comes from Wisbech, a once-prosperous market town in Cambridgeshire. Despite his complaints, one thing is painfully clear in his area — there are plenty of unskilled jobs around.


    The proof is in the approximately 9,000 Central and Eastern Europeans who have come and found them since the EU was expanded in 2004.
    So why doesn’t Philip have a job?
    One theory is the familiar one, that foreigners have stolen them all. You hear it expressed a lot in the town and it is hard to blame the local unemployed if they assume that the sparkling new avenues of employment that lead from Wroclaw to Wisbech have bulldozed their way through the opportunities of the people that were already there.
    But there is a second interpretation: that the unskilled jobs exist; it’s just the British can’t or don’t want to do them at rates at which it is viable to employ them. On this theory, if you were to take the immigrants away, you would have the same British unemployment as you had before.
    The economics profession has veered towards the second of these views rather than the first. But sometimes anecdotal evidence can do more than a thousand studies to help us frame an opinion, which is why BBC One commissioned Leopard Films to conduct an experiment.
    It simply involved taking a dozen or so unemployed people in Wisbech for a couple of days and putting them into jobs filled by migrants — packing potatoes, serving in an Indian restaurant, renovating property. It’s unscientific but illuminating.
    The outcomes are mixed, but overall it’s easy to see why employers default to foreign labour for many of the most routine jobs available.
    Philip takes part in the experiment himself: he gets two days picking asparagus. Unlike some other British participants in the project, he does turn up and does his best. But even he has to concede that the foreigners are good workers. “If I had a farm, I’d employ them any day,” he admits.
    The most important conclusion must be that immigrants have not all stolen their jobs from the British. They’ve made more economic activity on these shores viable than would be the case in their absence. As the employers in the programme explain, if the immigrants were to leave Wisbech, their jobs would not go to the local unemployed, many of them would simply go altogther.
    But you might go farther and argue that not only have migrants not stolen unskilled jobs, they have created jobs for white-collar workers.
    Take the Greenvale potato-packing plant near Wisbech, for example. Like many large employers these days, it substantially fills the shopfloor with non-Brits who do the back-breaking routine work. Twelve- hour shifts, with two fifteen-minute breaks and a half-hour lunch.
    The company wouldn’t be as big or profitable without a ready stock of hard-working, motivated employees to take this work. Hence one consequence of the migrants is that there are more jobs upstairs in management, human resources, secretarial and other functions. In short, at Greenvale, migrants have created British jobs for British middle-class workers.
    And that is probably one of most significant effects of immigration.
    To make the point, the Office for National Statistics published some interesting statistics last year: of those born in this country, 16 per cent are employed in roles labelled managers or senior officials. That’s almost as many as are employed at the traditional unskilled end of the labour market. You find only 18 per cent of us employed in the “bottom” two rungs, so-called elementary occupations and process, plant and machine operatives.
    The thing about a country of managers is that it needs people to manage. And immigration from Central and Eastern Europe has ended up topping up the numbers of the British working class. Among the imported workers from Central and Eastern Europe, most are in those bottom two rungs. And hardly any are in the management or professional categories.
    No wonder Philip sees plenty of hypnotherapy and project management type jobs being advertised out there.
    Which brings us to an important question left open by the Wisbech experiment. Even if migrants are not the root cause of his problems, how do we help Philip? And how do we nudge into activity, the “shirkers” — those who are now almost entirely devoid of any motivation to lift themselves off benefits.
    The incentive to think about those workers — whether they need carrots, sticks or subsidies to get them doing something — has been undermined by the ease with which they can be replaced by new arrivals. Migration has made it possible for employers no longer to bother trying to help indigenous workers with the fewest skills and least ability to compete; it also made it easy for policymakers (before the recession) to boast of growing employment and a successful labour market.
    In short, migration has made it easier to be middle class or an employer.
    Maybe that is a good thing. But don’t be surprised if it doesn’t feel so to someone unskilled.
    The Day the Immigrants Left is on BBC One tonight at 9pm

    Foreigners — they didn’t steal our jobs: they created them | Evan Davis - Times Online

  2. #2
    Eric
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    Doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that one out.

    There is a minimum wage, if EE migrants are undercutting that then surely the employers are breaking the law

  3. #3
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    Immigration has been the saviour of the UK. British Caucasians now are just bone idle losers who don't know the meaning of a hard days work, and are happy to abide on benefits.

    Those who don't receive benefits feel comfortable because of equity in their property. Doesn't make them any more worthy.

    UK is economically moribund, and, due to its mindset, beyond salvation.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    But you might go farther and argue that not only have migrants not stolen unskilled jobs, they have created jobs for white-collar workers.
    Indeed they have. See next quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    The economics profession
    Since when has economics been a profession? These sorts are the white-collar workers for whom jobs have been created.
    All the labour intensive jobs mentioned in the article used to be done by students trying to supplement a meagre grant. Since the grant system has been replaced by student loans (ie credit money), the students get caught at an early age in the web of lies that gives free money initially, at a huge interest rate eventually( in the form of mortgages), and the promise of white colar jobs in economics.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bangyai
    The incentive to think about those workers — whether they need carrots, sticks or subsidies to get them doing something — has been undermined by the ease with which they can be replaced by new arrivals.
    And above we have the immigration policy in a nutshell. Slimey fuckers assuming that decent people need "carrots, sticks or subsidies" when the exchange of a fair days work for a fair days pay might be a better incentive. I will one day dance on the grave of Thatcher. I promise.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ghost_Of_The_Moog View Post
    Immigration has been the saviour of the UK. British Caucasians now are just bone idle losers who don't know the meaning of a hard days work, and are happy to abide on benefits.

    Those who don't receive benefits feel comfortable because of equity in their property. Doesn't make them any more worthy.

    UK is economically moribund, and, due to its mindset, beyond salvation.

    Poor and lazy effort at trolling. E-

  6. #6
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    P-lease.... let's not start winging about foreigners taking jobs off hard working Brits.

    There are virtually no hard working Brits to take jobs off.

    Millions of working age Brits are sitting on their fat fucking arses doing sod all other than getting their walking stick out once a week to 'conspicuously limp' down to the welfare office to collect the next installment in their life long entitlement to so fucker else's wages.

    Example:
    When selling her house my mother was advised to demolish an outbuilding that was nearly falling down and would reduce the selling price.

    She employed a local contractor who in turn employed a young Polish lad to do the job.

    The young guy demolished the building then stacked all the tiles and timbers neatly and cleaned all the bricks before staking them into neat blocks.

    As my mother reported - They guy 'Worked Like a Black' (and where did that expression come from other than as an indication that a foreigner might work hard).

    A few days later a piece of fucking welfare scrounging white shit from across the village 'Limps' past on his way to collect his welfare cheque - spots the bricks and offers my mother a price for them. Price agreed, this piece of scrounging shit who has never worked a day in his life, spends the next three days running up and down the lane with a barrow piled high with Bricks, Timber and Tiles.

    Bad back forgotten about because he can make a quick profit on the bricks.

    Add to this the financial incentives offered to the brats of these fucking scroungers to go out get pregnant and put their hand out for generation 2, 3 or 4 to live out of some fucker else's wages and it is clear that the problem is.

    The UK needs foreigners to go work their because far too many Brits won't fucking work.

    Why should they - They are entitled to welfare.

    But hey, at least they keep themselves buys breeding more scrounging brats.

  7. #7
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    What is the minimum wage in Britain now?
    If it's a living wage then why are we having to employ foreigners who will work for that amount.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by the dogcatcher
    What is the minimum wage in Britain now?
    I thought it was about 5.60.

  9. #9
    Eric
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    5.73 is the current minimum wage, add the tax on thats fuck all

  10. #10
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    Current NMW rates
    There are different levels of NMW, depending on your age. The current rates (from 1 October 2009) are:
    £5.80 - the main rate for workers aged 22 and over
    £4.83 - the 18-21 rate
    £3.57 - the 16-17 rate for workers above school leaving age but under 18. The National Minimum Wage rates : Directgov - Employment

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itchy View Post
    P-lease.... let's not start winging about foreigners taking jobs off hard working Brits.

    There are virtually no hard working Brits to take jobs off.

    Millions of working age Brits are sitting on their fat fucking arses doing sod all other than getting their walking stick out once a week to 'conspicuously limp' down to the welfare office to collect the next installment in their life long entitlement to so fucker else's wages.

    Example:
    When selling her house my mother was advised to demolish an outbuilding that was nearly falling down and would reduce the selling price.

    She employed a local contractor who in turn employed a young Polish lad to do the job.
    Let me guess. Your mother either lives down south, or she`s a city dweller.

    No eastern Europeans working in the building trade round my way. The mills are the places they work.

  12. #12
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    Your guess was miles off the mark.... never mind eh!

  13. #13
    Thailand Expat klong toey's Avatar
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    No they are not stealing any body's job,but they have an advantage their overheads.
    Most Brits with a mortgage only have two people to pay the bills,as their children are at school.
    But when the immigrants rent a house,there will be at least 6 people sharing the bills,so they can afford to work for less money.

  14. #14
    loob lor geezer
    Bangyai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klong toey View Post
    No they are not stealing any body's job,but they have an advantage their overheads.
    Most Brits with a mortgage only have two people to pay the bills,as their children are at school.
    But when the immigrants rent a house,there will be at least 6 people sharing the bills,so they can afford to work for less money.
    Don't you mean 6 per room ?

  15. #15
    I am in Jail
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    Quote Originally Posted by klong toey View Post
    No they are not stealing any body's job,but they have an advantage their overheads.
    Most Brits with a mortgage only have two people to pay the bills,as their children are at school.
    But when the immigrants rent a house,there will be at least 6 people sharing the bills,so they can afford to work for less money.
    I would rather say that as they work for less money, so they must share a studio with at least other 6 people , but I guess I got the meaning of your statement anyway...

  16. #16
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    There was a TV show to go with this article and it confirmed what I had suspected all along. No jobs are being stolen, The British were simply too lazy and idle to bother taking any of the jobs which the immigrants are filling. They have to have some kind of excuse though, so they can carry on living off government handouts.

  17. #17
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    bring back national service!!

  18. #18
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    Brits have been getting more and more slipshod since they abolished the birch.

  19. #19
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    One of our Australian TV shows just did a segment on parts of Sydney and Melbourne where you can't get a job unless your moslem - service stations , car washes ,7-11's restaurants etc .
    Reason given was that moslem immigrants would work for less money than the award payment all Aussies are entitled to?
    Seems like a good opening for Trades and Labour to step in and check a few wage books? - probably won't happen , I think the mossies have got them frightened too ?
    Maybe Mortein is the answer ?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaiguy
    Maybe Mortein is the answer ?
    Didn't Hitler try that sort of shit...?

  21. #21
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    I did quite a lot of work for a furniture company in Manchestr called Stocktons who employed contractors from Poland to build, or renovate an old factory into a show room. I asked the owner why? expecting to get the response of cost being much cheaper. Although that was one of the benefits, he also confirmed from past experience that UK workers tend to stand around scratching their arses all-day taking twice as long as the Polish.

    Having worked on a number of developments myself in Manchester/Cheshire from Urban Splash to Crosby Homes, i can also confirm that that has been pretty much my experience when working along-side UK contractors.

    These business are not looking to save time in just labour, but also lead-time which unfortunately in many cases have been met by EE workers.
    Last edited by Jesus Jones; 26-02-2010 at 03:36 PM.
    You bullied, you laughed, you lied, you lost!

  22. #22
    Thailand Expat klong toey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wefearourdespot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by klong toey View Post
    No they are not stealing any body's job,but they have an advantage their overheads.
    Most Brits with a mortgage only have two people to pay the bills,as their children are at school.
    But when the immigrants rent a house,there will be at least 6 people sharing the bills,so they can afford to work for less money.
    I would rather say that as they work for less money, so they must share a studio with at least other 6 people , but I guess I got the meaning of your statement anyway...
    If people want to travel and work in other countries that's fine,but they have then put themselves in bad bargaining position.So the employer can then offer say £1 an hour less.If the people seeking employment don't like the offer they can always head back home and work for £5 an hour less.
    Life is not fair deal with it.

  23. #23
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    Worst argument I have ever seen. Yes life is unfair, some people will work harder than you for less money, I think they should deal with that.

    It's rubbish anyway as people expect to pay less for things in supermarkets etc.. but don't wish to work for less (or at all) in the farms and factories to allow goods to be produced cheaply. You can't have it both ways.

  24. #24
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    If Immigrants are so hardworking, why are their countries shit and why are they queuing up to leave?

  25. #25
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    theres a massive amount of Polish workers in stuff like lateshifts (4pm onwards etc) especially in warehousing. I go to 2 large distribution centres a day on average and one place I would guess is 90% Polish/foreign workers, both men and women (some fit women,bonus!). They all tend to be agency staff but are managed by a Polish team leader/manager who speaks good English.

    Ive got absolutely no problem with them, if these picky lazy people in the UK want to moan about having no work they should have been prepared to have worked these hours in the first place.
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