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Thread: Airline News

  1. #2326
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    An informative and technical description of the Boeing systems which may have fed erroneousinfo to the Pilot and F/O.



    Boeing issues 737 Operations Manual Bulletin after Lion Air accident


    "November 7, 2018, Leeham News.: Boeing issued a message to the operators of 737 MAX aircraft yesterday to remind their pilots of the procedures if an unreliable Angle Of Attack (AOA) information is suspected while flying.

    Below we describe what these procedures are and why Boeing is reminding its customers about what to do when suspecting a false AOA reading."

    Boeing’s 737 AOA sensors and how it affects the aircraft

    We have read the Boeing bulletin, what has been issued from the Indonesian crash investigators and the FAA, and what has been discussed in media. Below, we try to bring some clarity and perspective into what is sometimes sensational headlines out of a minimum of facts.

    The Federal Aviation Administration has today issued an Airworthiness Directive for the 737-8 and -9:

    The FAA has issued an Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) that addresses possible erroneous angle of attack (AOA) inputs on Boeing 737 Max aircraft. These erroneous inputs can potentially make the horizontal stabilizers repeatedly pitch the nose of the airplane downward, making the aircraft difficult to control. The AD orders operators to revise the airplane flight manual (AFM) to give the flight crew horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to follow under certain conditions. The AD is effective immediately. Operators have three days to revise the AFM. The FAA continues to work closely with Boeing, and as a part of the investigative team on the Indonesia Lion Air accident, may take further appropriate actions depending on the results of the investigation. The FAA has alerted foreign airworthiness authorities who oversee operators that use the 737 MAX of the agency’s action. “.

    The Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM) bulletin from Boeing reminds operators that the existing procedures are the correct actions to be taken if an aircraft encounters a false stall warning and flight control recovery triggered by a faulty Angle Of Attack signal.

    These procedures and the sensor system triggering them has stayed the same since 20 years as far as we understand. The system and its sensors have not been changed since the introduction of the 737NG in 1998.

    In the case of the Lion Air Flight JT610 the correct identification and action upon an incorrect AOA sensor information seem not to have been made. This might have been made more difficult by a simultaneous false reading of airspeed from the same system (one of three systems generating airspeed on the aircraft)."

    Continues with diagrams and systems here:

    https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/07/bo...-air-accident/

    It finishes with the following:

    "One can react to the above actions of the flight control system in the 737. But one should know this chain of actions have been defined by the 737 Flight Control team after flying the 737 since 1967, with many thousands of work hours research behind the design and over 50 years of airliner flight control design experience. It has also operated without known adverse effects in thousands of 737NG over the last 20 years.

    In this case, the events might have overloaded the Flight Crew on JT610. We don’t know why. And it’s best to wait until we do. We need to understand what exactly the flight crew was confronted with and their actions as a result.

    It’s by now clear it’s not a simple fact of them stalling the aircraft due to one side airspeed readings being unreliable. They had more to fight, so far is understood. But exactly what, we don’t know and therefore we don’t speculate further.

    What we wanted to do with this article is pointing out, as far as we know, the system involved is a tried and tested system. Why this didn’t help the JT610 crew, we don’t know, but it will be communicated in due course."

    The comments are generally supportive, some suggests differences in the MAX version, others suggest if it was an Airbus plane the FAA would be more demanding in terms of "actions to be taken". But that happens in many of the articles.
    Last edited by OhOh; 08-11-2018 at 08:21 PM.
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  2. #2327
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    Another Boeing.

    Boeing 737-900

    https://www.flightpedia.org/flight-status/jt633.html



    AOA, vertical and now horizontal. Flight school or Thai driving school.

    They are adamant it was ground crew's fault...

    Lion blamed the incident on an aircraft movement control officer at the airport run by state-owned airport operator Angkasa Pura II.
    "The pilot moved the plane according to guides, directions and signs given by the AMC officer -- an employee of the airport manager," Lion Air spokesman Danang Mandala Prihantoro said in a statement on Thursday morning. "We've received a letter from the AMC officer [...] saying he apologized for the incident."
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Com...t-in-Indonesia

  3. #2328
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    As long as it saved his job.

    A Japanese AMC Officer would have run at the nearest sharp objects and disemboweled him/herself.

    From the link:

    "KNKT chief Soerjanto Tjahjono said the new AOA sensor installed on the plane was supposed to be "serviceable," based on administrative records."

    Presumably only a Boeing certified engineer can decide such things.

    "Meanwhile, the search continues for the cockpit voice recorder, now emitting only a "weak" pinging sound, likely because the device is buried deep in the mud, Nurcahyo said. A special vessel has been dispatched to recover the voice recorder in the area, which has oil and gas pipelines, he said."

    It would be somewhat difficult to determine the cause if it can't be found. Maybe the ameristani cave expert can fly out a mini-sub to assist.

  4. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    As long as it saved his job.

    A Japanese AMC Officer would have run at the nearest sharp objects and disemboweled him/herself.

    From the link:

    "KNKT chief Soerjanto Tjahjono said the new AOA sensor installed on the plane was supposed to be "serviceable," based on administrative records."

    Presumably only a Boeing certified engineer can decide such things.

    "Meanwhile, the search continues for the cockpit voice recorder, now emitting only a "weak" pinging sound, likely because the device is buried deep in the mud, Nurcahyo said. A special vessel has been dispatched to recover the voice recorder in the area, which has oil and gas pipelines, he said."

    It would be somewhat difficult to determine the cause if it can't be found. Maybe the ameristani cave expert can fly out a mini-sub to assist.
    I don't think a tape containing "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH *splat*" is going to tell them much more than they already know.

  5. #2330
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    ^ You would be able to hear the stab wheel moving on the CVR, as well as the grunting of the pilots as the stick forces increased trying to maintain level flight.

    Not sure if the newer 737s had a bitching betty like eg the MD11, which told you when the trim was operating as well.

  6. #2331
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    I don't think a tape containing "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRR RRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH *splat*" is going to tell them much more than they already know.
    As they, allegedly were flying around 10 minutes after first calling ATC they had problems, one suspects there will be all manner of noises from the cockpit.

    But of course 'arry first of all they have to find it, then it has to be in a usable form and lastly presuming only Boeing have the ability to "read it", a truthful transcription is published. Stranger outcomes have as we know, been produced by airplane manufacturers trying to save their profit pig for the next decade.

    I wonder who was on the flight, any "names" whose deaths might be of consequence? I'm sure THE LORD, who had nothing to do with it, will somehow be blamed.

    As per usual these days.

    Last edited by OhOh; 09-11-2018 at 01:54 AM.

  7. #2332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    ^ You would be able to hear the stab wheel moving on the CVR, as well as the grunting of the pilots as the stick forces increased trying to maintain level flight.

    Not sure if the newer 737s had a bitching betty like eg the MD11, which told you when the trim was operating as well.
    But the FDR will have all the control inputs, altitude, attitude, pitch, roll, yaw, speed, etc.

    So as I said, I don't think the CVR will tell them something they don't already know.

    The fact that Boeing have rushed out a warning to all operators tells you they know *exactly* what the cause was: The software operating the aircraft acted unexpectedly and in a fashion for which the pilots had no training, the combination of which eventually put the aircraft in a non-recoverable situtation.



    That's my take on it anyway.

  8. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by OhOh View Post
    As they, allegedly were flying around 10 minutes after first calling ATC they had problems, one suspects there will be all manner of noises from the cockpit.

    But of course 'arry first of all they have to find it, then it has to be in a usable form and lastly presuming only Boeing have the ability to "read it", a truthful transcription is published. Stranger outcomes have as we know, been produced by airplane manufacturers trying to save their profit pig for the next decade.

    I wonder who was on the flight, any "names" whose deaths might be of consequence? I'm sure THE LORD, who had nothing to do with it, will somehow be blamed.

    As per usual these days.

    What on earth are you blathering on about? Are you drunk?

  9. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    as I said, I don't think the CVR will tell them something they don't already know
    Would be a lot of info on that box you loon, such as whether a bomb went off, an intruder got in there or the pilot shouted allahu akhbar

  10. #2335
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    what is fcuking scary is that the fcukers up the front are not really flying the plane

    it seems like one sensors fcuks out and the plane falls out of the sky - airspeed sensors they should have multiple and not just gauge press units - DP oriface , turbine , positive displacement - a whole range of sensor types hooked into a voting system

    but the pilot should be able to say fcuk this , nose down and full throttle

  11. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    Would be a lot of info on that box you loon, such as whether a bomb went off, an intruder got in there or the pilot shouted allahu akhbar
    They would easily be able to tell from the wreckage if a bomb went off you numpty.

    Now, why the fuck do *you* think Boeing have issued a warning then?

    I realise the temptation is to try and come up with lunatic theories as to why a plane crashed, but the evidence so far clearly points to the software defect (and that's what it is) bringing the plane down.

    They asked for a return to base, they didn't say "there is an intruder in the cockpit" or "the pilot is trying to kill us".

    Clearly they had problems with the aircraft, and the speed with which Boeing and the FAA have reacted strongly points to one thing:

    That this accident was a combination of bad technology and pilots without the experience or training to react. ***

    The only good thing out of this for Boeing is that in the US it would probably cost them hundreds of millions, in Indonesia they'll probably get away with relative peanuts.

    *** This is only my opinion but I suspect the preliminary report for this won't take long.

  12. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick View Post
    what is fcuking scary is that the fcukers up the front are not really flying the plane

    it seems like one sensors fcuks out and the plane falls out of the sky - airspeed sensors they should have multiple and not just gauge press units - DP oriface , turbine , positive displacement - a whole range of sensor types hooked into a voting system

    but the pilot should be able to say fcuk this , nose down and full throttle
    It does seem rather odd that they still rely on wind blowing into tubes to work out airspeed. Pitot tubes were invented in 1732!

    Added:

    From the PPRUNE thread (which I'd recommend you read Dilly):

    For less than $1500 a GA pilot can buy a portable EFIS giving GPS Artificial Horizon, GPS Groundspeed, GPS Vertical Speed and GPS Track with a 4 hour rechargeable battery.
    https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...akarta-44.html
    Last edited by harrybarracuda; 09-11-2018 at 02:09 PM.

  13. #2338
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    the evidence so far clearly points to the software defect (and that's what it is) bringing the plane down.

    They asked for a return to base, they didn't say "there is an intruder in the cockpit" or "the pilot is trying to kill us".

    Clearly they had problems with the aircraft, and the speed with which Boeing and the FAA have reacted strongly points to one thing:

    That this accident was a combination of bad technology and pilots without the experience or training to react. ***
    There we have it then, from the guy who has sat directly behind the pilot.....
    in biz class

    Case Closed

  14. #2339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    There we have it then, from the guy who has sat directly behind the pilot.....
    in biz class

    Case Closed
    As I said, that's my take on it.

    If you have any better theory that fits the evidence so far, let's hear it.

  15. #2340
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    I'm going with another Andreas Lubitz

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    ^ he was only found out after they recovered that worthless box of screams you mention

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    To determine airspeed they would need the exact windspeed where they are. I really don't see an alternative to direct measurement. It is possible to build reliable pitot tubes. A good pilot should be able to do without though. He needs to be aware that the airspeed may be wrong.
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    It is possible to build reliable pitot tubes
    not forgetting they are relying on a DP device to keep them in the air

    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    A good pilot should be able to do without though
    was my point - the machine feels a bit sloppy , put the nose down and up the power if you want the diff pressrue betweent the upper and lower sides of your wing to be positive

  19. #2344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    ^ he was only found out after they recovered that worthless box of screams you mention
    But that's in the absence of other evidence.

    Besides which I think the FDR would have indicated that someone flew it at a mountain and ignored TAWS warnings going off.

    You still haven't told me what you think happened.

  20. #2345
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    Quote Originally Posted by barrybizclass View Post
    You still haven't told me what you think happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
    I'm going with another Andreas Lubitz
    .....

  21. #2346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack meoff View Post
    .....
    I thought he was joking.

    Bit of a stretch that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    To determine airspeed they would need the exact windspeed where they are. I really don't see an alternative to direct measurement. It is possible to build reliable pitot tubes. A good pilot should be able to do without though. He needs to be aware that the airspeed may be wrong.
    Nothing can replace the pitot tube for determining reliable indicated airspeed. The sensor is pretty simple and very reliable and there are 3 of them on the 737. However, I believe the problem was with the Angle of Attack sensor, of which there are only 2 and is new to the 737s after the older 300/400/500 series. It is not a fundamental instrument for flying but it can help in certain circumstances. It appears that one of these sensors failed and gave warnings that were possibly misunderstood and led to the crash.

    Adding complexity to the system to increase automation that appears to have backfired....although this is still all conjecture

    However, it should be pointed out that the idea of having two guys at the front is for them to monitor the aircraft behaviour and manually intervene when necessary with appropriate actions. The stab trim has a cut-out switch in the event of trim motor runwaway or other malfunctions that may cause it to trim the aircraft into dangerous attitudes. It's probably a memory item in the event of such a failure, but we will no doubt find out soon the full details.
    Last edited by Troy; 10-11-2018 at 03:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    the pitot tube
    Wasn't it also the cause of the Air France crash in the Atlantic?

  24. #2349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    However, it should be pointed out that the idea of having two guys at the front is for them to monitor the aircraft behaviour and manually intervene when necessary with appropriate actions.
    The problem is that with all of this automation, pilots are relying on possibly erroneous digital readouts to understand the aircraft behaviour, and they don't always know what are the appropriate actions.

    Which I think is the case here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klondyke View Post
    Wasn't it also the cause of the Air France crash in the Atlantic?
    Yes, but it was known that the design was flawed and was to be replaced. Replacement was however not a priority. It was still pilot error that brought the plane down. They should have been able to cope with the faulty readout.

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