Thread: Trump to announce Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Originally Posted by Fluke

but you just focus on Israel

Have you noticed the thread title?

Originally Posted by stroller

Have you noticed the thread title?

I havent actually, no, whats this thread about ?

Hint:
It's not about Singapore, Brits in Nothern Ireland or Red Indian land.

Originally Posted by terry57

The Jews and Arabs hate each other, no matter what happens it will always be the same.

How comforting that the white people of Europe - and of some other countries over the ocean - do love each other and do not kill each other...

Originally Posted by Fluke

My point was that various things happened and are currently happened in various Countries around the World , similar to what has happened in Israel , but you dont seem to care about them (of course you will claim that you do) , but you just focus on Israel .
You oppose Zionism, solely because its Jews , you support the Palestinians , solely because they oppose Jews and you , as many others, would like a Palestinian state created with the sole intention of them getting rid of Israel

Your point was diversionary and not a response to my comment. And here you go again insinuating I'm antisemitic, again as a diversionary response and again proving my point that when an Israel apologist has no logical or valid response, his response to criticism of Israel is to cry "ANTISEMITE!!!".
I have told you the West Papua issue (where I rail against the Muslim state...so I must be an Islamophobe, right?) is a bugbear of mine. I'm also pro-Tibet (so I must be racist against Chines, right?). You have no idea about my politics in Australia or NZ. Actually, you probably have no idea of my race though I've mentioned it several times on these boards.
You have made a few baseless assumptions about me here, and all because you can't respond to valid criticisms of Israel.

Video time! Question, is Trump Jewish?

Originally Posted by terry57

The Jews and Arabs hate each other, no matter what happens it will always be the same.

Originally Posted by Klondyke

How comforting that the white people of Europe - and of some other countries over the ocean - do love each other and do not kill each other...

Are you seriously trying to suggest there is any parallel in Europe or the Americas for the enmity between Arabs and Jews?

Originally Posted by cyrille

Are you seriously trying to suggest there is any parallel in Europe or the Americas for the enmity between Arabs and Jews?

It's been not so long when such enmities happened in Europe. And in Americas among the same nations - if it can be called so...

Originally Posted by cyrille

Are you seriously trying to suggest there is any parallel in Europe or the Americas for the enmity between Arabs and Jews?

You've never been to an Old Firm match, have you?

Are you seriously trying to suggest there is any parallel in Europe or the Americas for the enmity between Arabs and Jews?

That is merely a function of events and politics- specifically the Zionist project/ sponsored mass migration of Jews to Palestine commencing in the late 1800's, the formation of Israel as a state in 1948 (accompanied by a promise for a Palestinian state, which finally took place quite recently), and of course Israeli actions since then- persecution and systematic dispossession of the Palestinians and their land, and pretty much constant war with it's neighbours. Accompanied, on the other side by attempted invasion, Palestinian resistance including terrorism, and increased extremist religious bullshit on both sides.

There is actually no particular historical enmity between Jews and Arabs, in fact the Jews living in Moslem countries were on average safer and less persecuted than those living in Europe. That basically changed in 1948.


I suppose it's all a bit old and hackneyed now, but worth repeating- their have been far, far more people killed in religious conflicts (catholic/ protestant) between Europeans then have ever been killed in jew/arab wars, and if we add to that WW1 & WW2, not even on the same page.

Documentary of Deutsche Welle (in English):

The other Jerusalem

Jerusalem may seem peaceful from a distance, but on the ground tensions are high. The city is the nexus of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Numerous Palestinians' houses have been demolished by Israeli forces in occupied East Jerusalem.

The other Jerusalem | All media content | DW | 12.12.2017

It seems that Trump did make a good deed for Palestine (after all):

Muslim leaders call for recognition of East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital
13 Dec, 2017

Leaders of Islamic countries have called for East Jerusalem to be recognized as the capital of Palestine, stating that Donald Trump’s move last week had voided the status of the US as a mediator in the Palestinian-Israeli peace process.

The Muslim leaders had gathered in Istanbul, Turkey on Wednesday for an emergency summit of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC). They condemned the US decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The controversial move was branded “an attack” on the rights of Palestinian people in the final declaration by the summit.

The declaration states that the US decision on Jerusalem is equivalent to its withdrawal from the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, NTV broadcaster reported. In its final declaration, the OIC formally recognized East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, according to the broadcaster.

“The US administration should give up its role in the peace process, and if the US does not step back, it will be responsible for all the consequences,” the declaration states, as quoted by NTV.

While speaking to the press after the summit, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vowed to go to the UN Security Council to seek full UN membership for the country. Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his turn, stated that the Jerusalem issue “will be our red line for eternity,” adding that Trump’s “illegitimate and immoral” decision would only bring the region into a “circle of fire.” Erdogan also condemned the “violence” conducted by Israel, showing photos of Palestinian children at the hands of Israeli soldiers as proof.

https://www.rt.com/news/412942-erdog...alem-decision/

Originally Posted by Klondyke

It seems that Trump did make a good deed for Palestine

Not really, he's escalating the tensions.

^ He is escalating tensions, but aside from the violence that may ensue, it may be a good thing.
For one, Jared and the US are no longer a suitable or acceptable mediator. With that as an irrefutable fact now (whereas it was a fact before, now it is proven), things may actually move forward.
Secondly, there is now a compelling case for E. Jerusalem to be recognised as Palestine's capital. Keep the Jordanian guardianship over the holy sites and make the rest of the city part of Palestine.

Haven't been following the past few days, but as the UN is responsible for this aspect of international law isn't it also the only organ that can officially and legally recognise Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, or 'future' capital?

Against this would be facts that they have no internationally recognised state as such, and the certainty of a US veto.

Originally Posted by jabir

Haven't been following the past few days, but as the UN is responsible for this aspect of international law isn't it also the only organ that can officially and legally recognise Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital, or 'future' capital?

Against this would be facts that they have no internationally recognised state as such, and the certainty of a US veto.

No, the UN is not the organ. A country declares it's own capital and that's that. Decalring a country a country is the UN's legal right though.
You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

^

Originally Posted by Maanaam

You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

The reality of this situation is pretty well shown in DW documentary as I advised above, worth to see it:
The other Jerusalem | All media content | DW | 12.12.2017

(even if the Germans are very careful to criticize the Israel)

Originally Posted by Maanaam

Keep the Jordanian guardianship over the holy sites and make the rest of the city part of Palestine.

The Jordanians left the area 50 years ago

Against this would be facts that they have no internationally recognised state as such,

Yes, they do.

As of 14 September 2015, 136 (7001705000000000000♠70.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognized the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people". On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed a motion changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member observer state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

A "non-member observer state" status with the UN is exactly the same as the status of Taiwan & The Vatican.

The British Parliament also voted by an overwhelming majority to recognize Palestine- yet strangely enough, it still hasn't happened. Is this Democracy at work?

the certainty of a US veto.

That goes without saying, and frankly grows more irrelevant with every passing year. As does the US.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

No, the UN is not the organ. A country declares it's own capital and that's that. Decalring a country a country is the UN's legal right though.
You're missing the important bits: East Jerusalem was never part of the declared Israeli state. Israel has always had ambitions to "have" it, and occupied E. Jerusalem, but since it's such a contentious issue, has not thus far dared to declare it as a capital, only aspirations of it.
International law and the Geneva Convention forbid occupying forces to settle in occupied land, so E. Jerusalem can never be Israel (despite Israel thumbing it's nose to those laws and conventions for the past 50 years and building settlements).

Sure a country chooses it's own capital, but Palestine is not a country and the PA capital is Ramallah.

Israel has made it clear several times that right of return, 67 borders and a divided Jerusalem are non-negotiable, even in talks without preconditions.

Originally Posted by Maanaam

I think that's wrong. The plans have already been drawn up to demolish the mosque and build a temple on the Mount. Bibi just needs a bit of support and encouragement to go through with it.
It would spark such a wave of death that we might even call it ww3

Not sure where you got that and don't want to know. Of course some people would like it to happen, but I would rather wager on bitcoins hitting a million by this time next week.

Originally Posted by Fluke

The Jordanians left the area 50 years ago

The waqf has a ton of influence in the old city, but imho have not used it wisely. Nothing new there, a peasant with credentials is still a peasant.

Originally Posted by sabang

Yes, they do.

As of 14 September 2015, 136 (7001705000000000000♠70.5%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations and two non-member states have recognized the State of Palestine. Many of the countries that do not recognize the State of Palestine nevertheless recognize the PLO as the "representative of the Palestinian people". On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed a motion changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member observer state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...e_of_Palestine

A "non-member observer state" status with the UN is exactly the same as the status of Taiwan & The Vatican.

The British Parliament also voted by an overwhelming majority to recognize Palestine- yet strangely enough, it still hasn't happened. Is this Democracy at work?


That goes without saying, and frankly grows more irrelevant with every passing year. As does the US.

An impressive testimony to the democratic process. I haven't seen the list so I don't know who voted how, but my guess is that the OIC block voted, so we start with 56 of those 138 votes right there, with the balance coming from rogue and Mickey Mouse states that were bought off cheap. Could argue a vote is a vote even if was bought or rented. But pointless, because I would also guess the A-team abstained. And if they didn't get full recognition under Obama it's a bit ambitious to make noises under Trump.

While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough. Also needed is UN membership under one government, which includes a constitution by any name, an anthem, flag, currency, DC, defence force and other trimmings of statehood; some are in place and others are details to work on, but if those aspiring to statehood wish to be taken seriously by anyone outside the Muslim world they also need to wean off the welfare tit and start earning. And don't herd me down the refugee route.

You can't have sovereignty just because you want it.

Originally Posted by Fluke

The Jordanians left the area 50 years ago

Al Aqsa Mosque is under Hashemite guardianship.

Originally Posted by jabir

Israel has made it clear several times that right of return, 67 borders and a divided Jerusalem are non-negotiable, even in talks without preconditions.

?? Eh? That sounds like some very strong preconditions. What are you on about?
And why are Israeli preconditions above Palestinian ones, especially when Israeli preconditions involve breaching international law and the Geneva Convention?

Originally Posted by jabir

An impressive testimony to the democratic process. I haven't seen the list so I don't know who voted how, but my guess is that the OIC block voted, so we start with 56 of those 138 votes right there, with the balance coming from rogue and Mickey Mouse states that were bought off cheap. Could argue a vote is a vote even if was bought or rented. But pointless, because I would also guess the A-team abstained. And if they didn't get full recognition under Obama it's a bit ambitious to make noises under Trump.

While the Palestinians have the beginnings of a viable nation with a population united by common descent, history, culture and language, that's not enough. Also needed is UN membership under one government, which includes a constitution by any name, an anthem, flag, currency, DC, defence force and other trimmings of statehood; some are in place and others are details to work on, but if those aspiring to statehood wish to be taken seriously by anyone outside the Muslim world they also need to wean off the welfare tit and start earning. And don't herd me down the refugee route.

You can't have sovereignty just because you want it.

I think you mean "You can't have anything because the four by twos want it".