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  1. #1
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    Reality Check: Germany rules terror suspects have no birth right to remain

    Now that is what I call a can of worms.

    Reality Check: Germany rules terror suspects have no birth right to remain
    22 March 2017


    In a sign of Germany's hardening attitude to security issues, a federal court has approved an order to deport two men suspected of planning an attack in their home town despite the fact that they have not been convicted and were born in Germany.

    The pair, a 27-year-old Algerian and a 22-year-old Nigerian, were arrested last month on suspicion of planning a terror attack in Göttingen, where they lived with their parents.

    Raids on their homes uncovered a gun and a flag belonging to the so-called Islamic State group.

    Charges were never brought, but the Lower Saxony interior ministry classified them as a threat to national security and requested their expulsion.

    "We are sending a clear warning to all fanatics nationwide that we will not give them a centimetre of space to carry out their despicable plans," said the regional Interior Minister Boris Pistorius.

    "They will face the full force of the law regardless of whether they were born here or not."

    According to the ministry, this is the first time such a decision has been taken and opens up a debate around the rights of those who have committed a crime or, as in this case, are suspected of doing so, to remain in the country.

    Germany, like many European states, subscribes to the idea of "jus sanguinis", where citizenship is determined by the nationalities of one or both parents but not by one's place of birth.

    As such, being born in Germany provides no automatic right to remain in Germany.
    However, since they had not been convicted of a crime, the Lower Saxony interior ministry had to argue that they nevertheless presented a security risk sufficient to expel them.

    Rules on deportation are taken at a regional or state level.

    In this case, the federal court was merely approving a request from the state's interior ministry.

    The other consideration was whether deporting the men to their parents' country of origin presented a risk to their safety.

    To date, there is no publicly available information on how either Algeria or Nigeria will deal with the men should the deportations go ahead.

    A year ago, French President François Hollande had to drop a move to strip convicted terrorists with dual nationality of their French passport and deport them, after an outcry in his own party.

    Human rights groups argued that being able to take away French nationality from convicted terrorists would create two classes of French nationality and was thus in contravention of France's founding principle of equality.
    Reality Check: Germany rules terror suspects have no birth right to remain - BBC News

  2. #2
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    It's only common sense.

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    They should at least convict them first.

  4. #4
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    ^ I don't know about Germany but with appeals etc it can take years to convict, and the expense involved for incarceration and greedy lawyer fees
    I think if they are bang to rights they shouldn't be protected by the law

  5. #5
    Fresh Seaman CaptainNemo's Avatar
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    Cliff Richard was born in India, but that doesn't make him Indian.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Pizza View Post
    It's only common sense.
    Almost guaranteed that if there is one moron on here that does not see the big picture, it would be you.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainNemo View Post
    Cliff Richard was born in India, but that doesn't make him Indian.
    If he'd been born in, say, Karachi, he would have been born in India.

    If they wanted to deport him, would they deport him to India or Pakistan?

    What if they had Czech parents?

    Would they deport them to the Czech Republic or Slovakia?

    Like I said, huge tin of worms.

    Since Germany are such big supporters of Europe, presumably these boys will lock it up in Human Rights legislation for years, that's if they don't win very quickly.

  8. #8
    Fresh Seaman CaptainNemo's Avatar
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    Jus Sanguinis simplifies life; Jus Soli is not the majority legal norm, and it tends to complicate life.
    India abolished Jus Soli in 2004; the law change in Germany post 2000 to grant citizenship to kids where one parent was a resident was perhaps not the most sensible plan.
    Dunno about the situation in Czechia/Slovakia.
    Last edited by CaptainNemo; 23-03-2017 at 04:45 PM.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1F2i0rYMj8

    we are all figments of our own imagination.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainNemo View Post
    Jus Sanguinis simplifies life; Jus Soli is not the majority legal norm, and it tends to complicate life.
    India abolished Jus Soli in 2004; the law change in Germany post 2000 to grant citizenship to kids where one parent was a resident was perhaps not the most sensible plan.
    Dunno about the situation in Czechia/Slovakia.
    I think you missed a few points:

    - These two were BORN in Germany.
    - A big lump of what was India is now Pakistan.
    - The two countries of the Czech Republic and Slovakia were formerly one country, Czechoslovakia.

    Still, I just think the fact that they were born in Yooooorp will have all the lawyers scratching their heads at this one.

  10. #10
    Days Work Done! Norton's Avatar
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    May have missed it but were they German citizens? Just being born there may make them residents but seems justified to deport them. Either Algeria or Nigeria who may refuse to take them. All gets complicated in a hurry. Interesting to see how it all sorts out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainNemo View Post
    Cliff Richard was born in India, but that doesn't make him Indian.
    ENT was born in India, but that doesn't make him an academic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda
    Like I said, huge tin of worms.
    Yep, and thus far an emotionally based one rather than a reasoned one.

    "the idea of "jus sanguinis", where citizenship is determined by the nationalities of one or both parents but not by one's place of birth." I have a lot of trouble with. Especially with people who know no other home and perhaps no other language.
    Europe, with it's contiguous nations is arguably one thing, while deporting to non-contiguous countries is another.

    As said above, secure convictions first, but even then it's a tricky situation.

    I think the answer is to get the convictions and then imprison as per the law.

  13. #13
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    Definitely not due process, if there is such a thing in Germany.

  14. #14
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    There are a couple of possible get-outs I can see:

    Persons acquiring German citizenship on the basis of birth in Germany (without a German parent) lose German citizenship automatically at age 23 if they have not successfully applied to retain German citizenship. If it is desired to maintain a foreign citizenship, application must be made by age 21.
    and

    ...one usually acquires German citizenship... by birth in Germany to parents with foreign nationality if certain requirements are fulfilled.

  15. #15
    Fresh Seaman CaptainNemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrybarracuda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainNemo View Post
    Jus Sanguinis simplifies life; Jus Soli is not the majority legal norm, and it tends to complicate life.
    India abolished Jus Soli in 2004; the law change in Germany post 2000 to grant citizenship to kids where one parent was a resident was perhaps not the most sensible plan.
    Dunno about the situation in Czechia/Slovakia.
    I think you missed a few points:

    - These two were BORN in Germany.
    - A big lump of what was India is now Pakistan.
    - The two countries of the Czech Republic and Slovakia were formerly one country, Czechoslovakia.

    Still, I just think the fact that they were born in Yooooorp will have all the lawyers scratching their heads at this one.
    The points I missed? I'll break them down:

    Before 2000, Germany had Jus Sanguinis, which means anyone merely born in Germany before that point would not be German, as appears to be the case with these two. They have no reasonable right to expect to be regarded as German, based on that law. What they had was German residency, which I guess they may have been able to convert.

    Germany may well start thinking about repealing the change in the law, and will have to decide whether to incorporate removal of rights for all those born in the intervening period - your "can of worms". They will probably chicken out of it, which is going to have major implications for all those migrants; and for German politics.

    India no longer does Jus Soli, so it doesn't matter if someone was born in a place that used to be India, unless they were born before it ceased to be India, which would be between 1947-1949, I think Pakistan was a separate Dominion until 1956. It won't affect that many people now.

    Czechia & Slovakia, are Jus Sanguinis states. Assuming there is a way of determining ethnicity as in Yugoslavia, it might come down to where a parent was born.
    They resolved their issue like this:
    If a person was a citizen of the Czech and Slovak Federative Republic as of 31 December 1992, he may declare citizenship of either the Czech Republic or Slovakia (gaining Slovak citizenship) assuming he does not have any other citizenship. The Slovak provision allowing for this grant expired in 1993, however the Czech equivalent remains in the citizenship law.

    Resident foreigners or stateless persons who have for at least five years held a right of permanent residence and have resided in the Czech Republic for most of that time can apply for Czech naturalisation if they can prove they have lost or will lose their original citizenship upon being granted Czech citizenship (valid till December 31, 2013), are of good character and are proficient in the Czech language (current or former Slovak citizens are exempt from language requirements). Parents can apply for their children under 15 years of age, and naturalisation occurs at the discretion of the Interior Ministry.
    The residence requirement can be waived if the person has a permanent residence permit and
    • was born on the territory of the Czech Republic, or
    • has lived there for at least 10 years continuously, or
    • has held Czech citizenship before, or
    • was adopted by a Czech citizen, or
    • his or her spouse is a Czech citizen, or
    • at least one of his or her parents is a Czech citizen, or
    • has relocated to the Czech Republic before 31 December 1994 on the invitation of the Czech government, or
    • is stateless or has refugee status in the Czech Republic[4]
    I'm not sure what your point is... they may have been born in the European continent, but they were not born within a legal condition where being born where they were born matters... ergo, they are not EU citizens, and can be returned to Africa. This is similar to the Australian case of the Croatian drug offender really. Their terrorism charge cost them their residency. Dumkopfs.
    Last edited by CaptainNemo; 23-03-2017 at 06:57 PM.

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