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  1. #1
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    Several casualties as trains collide head-on in Germany

    Two passenger trains have collided in the German state of Bavaria, with reports saying several people have been seriously injured.

    The crash happened at Bad Aibling, a spa town about 60km (37 miles) south-east of Munich.

    One of the trains was derailed in the crash and several carriages were overturned, German media reported.

    It is believed the trains collided head-on. Emergency services are at the scene.

    Several hurt as trains collide in Germany - BBC News

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    Four people are dead and 15 seriously injured following a collision between two trains in Germany's southern state of Bavaria, a police spokeswoman says.

    Forty other passengers have less significant injuries, South Bavarian police spokeswoman Barbara Straffberger told CNN.

    The trains collided head-on near the spa town of Bad Aibling, about 60km (37 miles) southeast of the Bavarian capital Munich.

    The crash took place at 6.48 a.m. local time (12.48 a.m. ET).

    The reason for the crash is not yet known and rescue workers are at the scene.

    Four dead, 15 seriously injured in German train crash - CNN.com

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    Philippine Expat Davis Knowlton's Avatar
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    I was once in a , in India. Ain't fun.

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    Death Toll in German Train Crash Rises to 8



    BERLIN — German police say the death toll in the train crash in southern Germany has risen to eight. Police spokesman Stefan Sonntag said 150 people were injured in the Tuesday morning crash, including 50 severely.

    The two trains crashed head-on into each other shortly before 7 a.m. on the single line that runs next to the Mangfall river in Bad Aibling, Bavaria.

    Injured people are being carried by helicopter and boat from the inaccessible site of a train crash in southern Germany.

    Rescue helicopters are carrying people on a rope across the Mangfall river to ambulances waiting on the other side, four hours after the two trains crashed head-on. Federal police spokesman Stefan Brandl says the stretch of line on which the two trains crashed is squeezed between the Mangfall river on one side and a forest on the other, which is making rescue operations very difficult.

    A German news agency reported that the rail line is used by commuters going to Munich for work. Usually schoolchildren also take the trains, but they are currently on winter vacation.

    The operator of the two trains that crashed, Bayerische Oberlandbahn, says on its website that the trains of the so-called Meridian line both partially derailed and are wedged into each other.

    Both the trains' operator and federal police in Bavaria have activated phone hotlines for family and relatives.

    The statement did not address the cause of the crash, and officials decline to comment on it.

    Death Toll in German Train Crash Rises to 8

  5. #5
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    That kind of crash should never happen; either serious mechanical failure or somebody was doing what they shouldn't - even worse if was both.

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    Seems the trains don't run on time same way they did back in the early 40's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    That kind of crash should never happen; either serious mechanical failure or somebody was doing what they shouldn't - even worse if was both.
    Lots of things in life are not supposed to happen but they do.

    Although I will admit that UK police no longer refer to traffic crashes as accidents as they are usually caused by someone.

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    The eye-witness account on the bbc link is interesting if correct. This is a single track stretch with automatic braking on a red light. The train at the station normally remains there until the uptrain has passed ... about 5mins or so ... witness says it left before the train had passed.

    New driver on the route coupled with signal failure?

    Usually DB trains run smoothly and on schedule...very good and reliable service, which puts the UK rail service to shame on service and cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy View Post
    New driver on the route coupled with signal failure?
    As ever it is too early to say; having been a signalman myself let me explain something briefly; when a section of track is occupied by a train signals are normally turn to red for two safe braking distances behind the train. In this case the mechanics of signalling (i.e. occupied section of track) prevent signals being cleared on to it until it is clear. Obviously a train has entered a section where it should not have been. A mechanical fairlure or could have shown a drive erroneously a green but more likely a signal at danger was passed for whatever reason. The one difference to these situations I can think of was the Severn tunnel crash in the Uk years ago. By the way whether the driver was new or not is largely irrelevant, experienced drivers are just as bad. See SPAD on youtube. SPAD = signal passed at danger.

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    The track had automatic brakes. the system had been tested just one week before without any troubles. The automatic braking can be mannually overridden though by the train operator. There were unconfirmed reports, that the system was switched off for unscheduled moving of a locomotive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Usually DB trains run smoothly

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    The track had automatic brakes. the system had been tested just one week before without any troubles.
    Errors human or otherwise do not happen on schedule.

    The automatic braking can be mannually overridden though by the train operator.
    Yes but on many systems there are additional safety features to cater for this.

    There were unconfirmed reports, that the system was switched off for unscheduled moving of a locomotive.
    Be careful: London Underground's system is failsafe unfortunately I don't have any diagrams to explain and probably can't get any. I don't know the system used in Germany but the basic principals of signalling are always exactly the same. However, it mignt not have been that we have yet to see.

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    [quote=Ronin;3204301]
    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Be careful: London Underground's system is failsafe unfortunately I don't have any diagrams to explain and probably can't get any. I don't know the system used in Germany but the basic principals of signalling are always exactly the same. However, it mignt not have been that we have yet to see.
    The system used on that track does allow humans to interfere. So it cannot be failsafe. Yes the signalling system is there and even when the automatic braking system was switched off it still takes the drivers to ignore at least two signals each. That is both drivers as both trains were moving at cruise speed. What happened requires a long list of human errors.

    The tracks belong to Deutsche Bahn and are operated by them. The two trains are of one private operator. This should not have contributed to less safety at least in theory and according to the regulations.

    The trains have black boxes and evaluating them will show the whole picture eventually.
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post

    The system used on that track does allow humans to interfere. So it cannot be failsafe.
    I was referring to the London Underground system which IS failsafe. I worked on the system and know only too well.

    Yes the signalling system is there and even when the automatic braking system was switched off it still takes the drivers to ignore at least two signals each. That is both drivers as both trains were moving at cruise speed. What happened requires a long list of human errors.
    First of all the number of signals could have been three, in this instance it could easily have been one. Have you been a signalman? Have you worked with these systems, I would think not given the possible inaccuracy of your post.

    The tracks belong to Deutsche Bahn and are operated by them. The two trains are of one private operator. This should not have contributed to less safety at least in theory and according to the regulations.
    So now you are assuming one had less safety than the other, where is your evidence? What regulations and what do they say.

    The trains have black boxes and evaluating them will show the whole picture eventually.
    We all know that... seems you like to rant for the sake of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post The system used on that track does allow humans to interfere. So it cannot be failsafe.
    I was referring to the London Underground system which IS failsafe. I worked on the system and know only too well.
    And the London system is relevant to this accicent how? I was referring to the track where the accident happened. And it was obvious from my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: Yes the signalling system is there and even when the automatic braking system was switched off it still takes the drivers to ignore at least two signals each. That is both drivers as both trains were moving at cruise speed. What happened requires a long list of human errors.
    First of all the number of signals could have been three, in this instance it could easily have been one. Have you been a signalman? Have you worked with these systems, I would think not given the possible inaccuracy of your post.
    OK the statement was that there are always at least two signals on red between two trains on the track. So it is possible that the accident occured if only two signals in total were missed, however spread between the two trains. My statement was not correct. Still at least two human errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The tracks belong to Deutsche Bahn and are operated by them. The two trains are of one private operator. This should not have contributed to less safety at least in theory and according to the regulations. So now you are assuming one had less safety than the other, where is your evidence? What regulations and what do they say.
    I stated a simple fact. And I stated that fact does not necessarily contribute to the accident. What's your problem with that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The trains have black boxes and evaluating them will show the whole picture eventually. We all know that... seems you like to rant for the sake of it.
    Rant? Bollocks. Again I stated a simple fact. Probably you knew and you imply everybody else did too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    And the London system is relevant to this accicent how? I was referring to the track where the accident happened. And it was obvious from my post.
    Actually it is: as I stated earlier all signalling systems employ the same principles.


    OK the statement was that there are always at least two signals on red between two trains on the track. So it is possible that the accident occured if only two signals in total were missed, however spread between the two trains. My statement was not correct. Still at least two human errors.
    You do not know that for a fact and your post is supposition, you may find there aren't any track side signals*, I have yet to see any article that describes the signalling system in operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The tracks belong to Deutsche Bahn and are operated by them. The two trains are of one private operator. This should not have contributed to less safety at least in theory and according to the regulations. So now you are assuming one had less safety than the other, where is your evidence? What regulations and what do they say.
    I stated a simple fact. And I stated that fact does not necessarily contribute to the accident. What's your problem with that?
    You did not state a fact, you have stated your opinion and still have not stated what the regualtions supposedly say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The trains have black boxes and evaluating them will show the whole picture eventually. We all know that... seems you like to rant for the sake of it.
    Rant? Bollocks. Again I stated a simple fact. Probably you knew and you imply everybody else did too.
    There was no need to 'state a simple fact' the fact that the trains have black boxes appears in all major news items. Like I said just a rant - are you HermantheGerman multinicking?


    *The Japanese bullet train and the French TGV use satellite signaling which relays instructions to the driver's cab since moving at the speed these trains are capable of may result in a driver mistaking the aspect of a signal if it was trackside, or worse not see it at all.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: Originally Posted by Takeovers View Post The system used on that track does allow humans to interfere. So it cannot be failsafe.
    I was referring to the London Underground system which IS failsafe. I worked on the system and know only too well.
    And the London system is relevant to this accicent how? I was referring to the track where the accident happened. And it was obvious from my post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: Yes the signalling system is there and even when the automatic braking system was switched off it still takes the drivers to ignore at least two signals each. That is both drivers as both trains were moving at cruise speed. What happened requires a long list of human errors.
    First of all the number of signals could have been three, in this instance it could easily have been one. Have you been a signalman? Have you worked with these systems, I would think not given the possible inaccuracy of your post.
    OK the statement was that there are always at least two signals on red between two trains on the track. So it is possible that the accident occured if only two signals in total were missed, however spread between the two trains. My statement was not correct. Still at least two human errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The tracks belong to Deutsche Bahn and are operated by them. The two trains are of one private operator. This should not have contributed to less safety at least in theory and according to the regulations. So now you are assuming one had less safety than the other, where is your evidence? What regulations and what do they say.
    I stated a simple fact. And I stated that fact does not necessarily contribute to the accident. What's your problem with that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    Quote: The trains have black boxes and evaluating them will show the whole picture eventually. We all know that... seems you like to rant for the sake of it.
    Rant? Bollocks. Again I stated a simple fact. Probably you knew and you imply everybody else did too.
    Its early days yet Takeovers , and with their usual Teutonic efficiency I'm sure they will be able to say what or who caused the tragedy , meanwhile here is a good report from the BBC Germany train crash: Inquiry focus 'on signalling error' - BBC News

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin
    You did not state a fact, you have stated your opinion
    Bollocks again. I stated as facts what has been said by experts in german news outlets. Are you saying that you have superior knowledge compared to those experts? If I state opinion I clearly indicate it as opinion.

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