Thread: Keeping UK in the EU

Cameron urges unity on EU as eurosceptic attacks begin



London (AFP) - Prime Minister David Cameron on Wednesday fended off attacks from eurosceptics and a hostile press over proposed reforms to keep Britain in the EU that Brussels defended as a "fair" deal for all.

In a heated parliamentary debate, Cameron urged fellow MPs to stand united as he faced vitriol from senior members of his own Conservative Party and a scathing response from several newspapers to the plan.

"Let's fight this together," Cameron told MPs, defending the draft measures put forward by European Council president Donald Tusk on Tuesday that are due to go before all 28 EU leaders.

The measures are part of a plan to avoid Britain becoming the first European Union member to quit the bloc in a referendum that has to be held by 2017 at the latest but is expected within months.

The plans include a four-year "emergency brake" on welfare payments for EU migrant workers, protection for countries that do not use the euro and a "red card" system giving national parliaments more power to veto European regulations.

The reforms add up to "the strongest package we've ever had," Cameron insisted.

"I do believe that with these draft texts and with all the work we've done with our European partners, Britain is getting closer to the decision point," stressed the prime minister.

Underlining the challenge Cameron faces in balancing British demands with those of EU allies, French President Francois Hollande said there should be no more changes when the plan is discussed at a February summit.

"We want the United Kingdom to remain in the European Union," Hollande told reporters Wednesday.

"But at the European Council (summit), there can be no new adjustments...(or) new negotiations."

- 'Rather humiliating' -

At the European Parliament in Strasbourg, the head of the EU's executive arm defended the package, hailing it as "fair" for the whole of the 28-member bloc.

"We have addressed the prime minister's concerns while respecting the (EU) treaties," said Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker.

Nigel Farage, the leader of Britain's anti-EU party UKIP, however, ridiculed the proposals, saying they were "hardly worth the wait" and adding that Cameron would now "parade in front" of EU leaders for more concessions at a summit in two weeks.

"I find it rather humiliating that a British prime minister has to do this," Farage said.

In Westminster, the proposals were criticised by traditionally eurosceptic Conservative MPs but also by a close political ally of the British leader -- London's flamboyant mop-haired mayor Boris Johnson.

"The prime minister is making the best of a bad job," Johnson, who opponents of Britain's EU membership hope will head up their campaign, told Sky News. "We've got a lot more to do on this."

Following Cameron's statement, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg warned his boss that "he has two weeks in which to salvage his reputation as a negotiator."

Former defence secretary Liam Fox warned on Wednesday that up to five members of Cameron's cabinet could campaign to leave the union after seeing the proposals.

The leader of the opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, reiterated his party's support for Britain to stay in the bloc and said the debate was a "Tory party drama."

- 'Ambitious package' -

Britain's newspapers on Wednesday heaped scorn on the plans, with the mass-selling popular tabloid The Sun splashing "Who do EU think you are kidding Mr Cameron?" across its front page while The Daily Mail called it "The Great Delusion".

The proposals are also expected to be a hard sell for some EU states that fear Cameron is winning too many concessions ahead of the February 18-19 summit.

Cameron begins a charm offensive that will take him to Poland and Denmark on Friday then Germany next week.

German government spokesman Steffen Seibert on Wednesday called the proposals "an ambitious package", but said Berlin would need more time to review them.

But the battle will be waged at home too, with opinion polls split on whether Britons would back leaving the EU in their first vote on the subject since 1975.

Cameron did not offer a timing for the vote, but said it would not be staged within six weeks of regional elections on May 5 -- something that leaves open the date of June 23 which has been mooted in the press.

US President Barack Obama waded into the debate by telling Cameron his country was best served inside the EU.

Obama spoke with Cameron by phone and "reaffirmed continued US support for a strong United Kingdom in a strong European Union," according to the White House.

Cameron urges unity on EU as eurosceptic attacks begin

Cameron's pledge to give U.K. Folks the vote on an in or out referendum on the EU
Is a vote just as valid as a vote in Zimbabwes elections.
EU + Cameron won't let the U.K. Gain freedom.
Forget it, EU membership is forever.

not that it affects me but GET OUT you loons!

Originally Posted by wasabi

EU + Cameron won't let the U.K. Gain freedom.

No offense, but you're not quite normal, are you.

The EU cannot stop the UK leaving and never forced it to join . . . so, either vote to stay or leave but ffs stop moaning like pathetic little bitches who blame everything on the EU with info gained from the Mirror or Daily Mail . . . like you

The problem for voters is twofold. Politicians have been peddling lies for their own benefit for way too long. Half the electorate understands this and is rightly sceptical.

The other half a weak minded individuals who will believe the most convincing media opinion. Who to trust? Journalists or politicians? I trust both of them as far as I could throw a lawyer.

I would much prefer a robust and independent academic study to inform the voting public. Sadly both media and government will not allow this. I wonder why?

I just checked for valid independent sources. It seems the topic is so huge that even our world renowned seats of learning have to break it down into bite size chunks just to have a discussion about it.

https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/research-an...ts-and-reports

Result - Undecided. What hope is there for us mere mortals?

Originally Posted by chassamui

What hope is there for us mere mortals?

What hope indeed . . . The issue is so complex that individuals simply cannot grasp it nor have an informed opinion about it . . . the Mirror readership thinks they know all because it's right there among the 'Boobs Burst in Boeing 747' and 'Kylie's sister is her mother' articles while The Guardian readership believe they know all because . . . well, it IS the Guardian after all.
(disclaimer - the Guardian is my start-up page under Safari)

I do think a sense of reality is necessary to rebuff all the scaremongering that is going on.
Atypical example is trade. If it's true that we do 50% of or business with Europe, will EU countries suddenly stop buying UK produced Toyota, Honda and Nissan vehicles?

Will the British stop buying BMW, Mercedes and VAG? Irrespective of any tariffs that might or might not be imposed, I do not see personal choice and convenience being eroded by petty bureaucracy.

If London's status as a financial centre is eroded, will we lose a few corrupt bankers and will the FTSE cease to exist? I would vote to leave just for the simple pleasure of bying NZ lamb and Aussie beef without some French twat telling me to buy European or else.

The socialist experiment of ever greater federalisation may suit the likes of France and Germany, but I genuinely believe it is not in the interests of the UK, or many other EU states to follow suit.

Something remarkably similar is happening in the USA where citizens are genuinely frustrated with the impotency of political leadership and centralised control,of their democracy.

Originally Posted by chassamui

If it's true that we do 50% of or business with Europe, will EU countries suddenly stop buying UK produced Toyota, Honda and Nissan vehicles?

Not at all, but the Japanese would move their factories to the mainland - that is simply good business - and possibly even start importing right-hand drive models from China or wherever else they are manufactured.

Originally Posted by chassamui

I would vote to leave just for the simple pleasure of bying NZ lamb and Aussie beef without some French twat telling me to buy European or else.

I'm disappointed in you:

From Oz:
The UK continues to be the primary destination, accounting for 43% of total exports in 2014.
Beef | Meat & Livestock Australia

From NZ:

Red meat export statistics ? Beef + Lamb New Zealand

Originally Posted by chassamui

The socialist experiment of ever greater federalisation may suit the likes of France and Germany, but I genuinely believe it is not in the interests of the UK, or many other EU states to follow suit.

I certainly wouldn't call it socialist, especially when you take into account - you mention Germany - that for 27 of the last 31 years a right wing government has been in power in Germany. It is a social democracy, not socialism. Calling Germany socialist sounds far too much like an American inbred shouting USA USA USA (no offense intended)
Federalism - you are aware that the states in Germany are very independent and that one is even a free state . . .

Originally Posted by chassamui

Something remarkably similar is happening in the USA where citizens are genuinely frustrated with the impotency of political leadership and centralised control,of their democracy.

The US is a completely different kettle of fish, in my opinion.
American politics are simply absurd, it has become so very estranged from the voting population and guiding principles it was built on.
Btw, states' rights are also quite pronounced in the US.

Give you a guess where there is a centralised government that focusses almost uniquely on its capital . . .


(nice discussion, Chas and Betty, though you are both clearly wrong )

Originally Posted by panama hat

American politics are simply absurd, it has become so very estranged from the voting population and guiding principles it was built on. Btw, states' rights are also quite pronounced in the US.

Any more eggs you would like to teach me how to suck.

If democracy is ever to be threatened, it will not be by revolutionary groups burning government offices and occupying the broadcasting and newspaper offices of the world. It will come from disenchantment, cynicism and despair caused by the realization that the New World Order means we are all to be managed and not represented.

Tony Benn, Ex Labour MP. How prescient of him.

The German government is and always will be a coalition of political groups. They fear the return of Fascism so much, they will do anything to preserve and enlarge federal Europe.
Ever notice how Merkel is the only EU politician to make encouraging noises toward Cameron, or how strangely silent Hollande is?

There is no real difference between socialists and social democrats anymore. At least not in a European political context. It's the reason that Lib Dems have all but disappeared in UK. All too centrist to get a fag paper between them.

Originally Posted by chassamui

Any more eggs you would like to teach me how to suck.

I doubt I need to teach you to suck anything!

Originally Posted by chassamui

There is no real difference between socialists and social democrats anymore.

Au contraire, mon vieux!

Originally Posted by chassamui

They fear the return of Fascism so much, they will do anything to preserve and enlarge federal Europe.

I'll have to give you that.

PH 34 Chas 1

For anyone who is in doubt about UK politics, here is a handy old guide.

1. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country.
2. The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country.
3. The Times is read by people who actually do run the country.
4. The Daily Mail is read by people who have difficulty reading anything without pictures of celebrities.
5. The Financial Times is read by people who own the country.
6. The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country.
7. The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is run by another country.
8. The Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

the sun has set on the pommy empire

all it produces is chavs in abundance

so unless they are able to utilize the cannon fodder to steal resources from other nations it is best they bind themselves to the borg

Originally Posted by baldrick

so unless they are able to utilize the cannon fodder to steal resources from other nations it is best they bind themselves to the borg

When we need advice from a convict you can be sure we will give it to you.

Originally Posted by baldrick

the sun has set on the pommy empire

all it produces is chavs in abundance

so unless they are able to utilize the cannon fodder to steal resources from other nations it is best they bind themselves to the borg

I stayed in a Hotel Borg once. I got arrested rather than assimilated.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Have you ever read the Daily Mirror? I think you're confusing it with the Sun.

Yes, Mirror/Sun mix-up. Thank you for pointing that out

Originally Posted by chassamui

1. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country.
2. The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country.
3. The Times is read by people who actually do run the country.
4. The Daily Mail is read by people who have difficulty reading anything without pictures of celebrities.
5. The Financial Times is read by people who own the country.
6. The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country.
7. The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is run by another country.
8. The Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

A very interesting analysis of UK voter attitudes to the EU and the UK referendum.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/wp-conten...in-divided.pdf

Cameron fights for his place in history with EU vote

London (AFP) - Prime Minister David Cameron is playing a high-stakes game which will decide his place in political history with negotiations aimed at preventing Britain from leaving the EU in a looming referendum, experts say.

Cameron landed himself in his current position by promising in 2013 to hold a referendum on Europe if he won the 2015 election. That was a bid to unite his party, long divided on the issue.

Paradoxically for a leader who is arguing for Britain to stay in the European Union, Cameron has described himself as a eurosceptic.

"He is a pragmatic eurosceptic," Peter Snowdon, co-author of a book about Cameron's first term in office, "Cameron at 10", told AFP.

"He is not Heath, neither Thatcher," Snowdon said, referring to two of Cameron's Conservative predecessors, who are seen as more straightforwardly europhile and eurosceptic respectively.

"He is much more pragmatic, hence his difficulty convincing eurosceptics," the author added.

Since becoming leader of the centre-right Conservatives 11 years ago, Cameron has insisted that his party must become less focused on Europe, an issue which caused particular splits in the 1980s and 1990s.

Cameron proposed the referendum with populist eurosceptics the UK Independence Party (UKIP) gaining popularity and sucking voters away from the Conservatives.

Many analysts believe he called the vote as an attempt to try and resolve the splits for a lengthy period, allowing the Conservatives to move on.

But will the former student of the prestigious Eton College and Oxford University be able to convince Britons to stay in?

- 'Benefits for migrants' -

Fighting Cameron's corner will be many business leaders in the City of London as well as the leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland who, according to French Prime Minister Manuel Valls, would see a so-called Brexit as a "drama".

He will also have most of his cabinet at his side. While several are expected to campaign to leave, some key figures are set to weigh in behind him, including Home Secretary Theresa May.

The eventual position of others, including London Mayor Boris Johnson, will be tied up with the leadership race to succeed Cameron, who has said he will step down before the next election in 2020.

The charismatic, mop-haired Johnson has yet to declare whether he will support leaving or staying.

In negotiations, Cameron is sandwiched between European leaders opposed to any change on key principles like the freedom of movement or ever-closer union and a strong strand of eurosceptic public opinion in Britain, fanned by the popular press.

A draft deal for changes to Britain's relationship with the EU has been published and it could be finalised at a Brussels summit later this month.

"I think he is in a quite difficult political situation, and that is because he made the most specific demands in the area that's most difficult to convince the other member states to agree and that's benefits for migrants," said John Springford of think-tank the Centre for European Reform.

"If he doesn't achieve it at the summit, he is going to have a very difficult time selling his negotiation to the public at home and also to his own MPs as being some major reform package."

For columnist Rafael Behr at British newspaper the Guardian, Cameron has learned to negotiate with the EU.

"He was schooled in the art of cramming and to perform well under exam conditions," he added, referring to the premier's elite education.

The result of the referendum is likely to go down to the wire, with current opinion polls suggesting a narrow lead for those who want to leave the EU. A large number of voters are still undecided.

The refugee crisis could complicate matters further -- with immigration a hot topic in Britain, a fresh wave of new arrivals from Syria and other conflict-hit nations to Europe could make the situation even harder for Cameron.

If Britain votes for Brexit, he would almost certainly have to resign and suffer an ignominious place in history. If he wins, his legacy is sealed.

But afterwards? "He is not somebody wedded to politics, not like Margaret Thatcher. He is very evenly balanced. He was very candid, very open, about the importance of his family," said Snowdon.

Cameron fights for his place in history with EU vote

Trouble is folk have no idea what will happen if the UK voted to leave.

The 180,000 poles who labour allowed in + all the refugees and migrants knocking on the door is scaring and depressing lots of people.
This alone is being focused on as a reason to leave by many.
To get back border control.
Lots of people now don't bother going into town because of all the strange languages
and faces that now surround them. They don't recognise their towns anymore.
But the damage is already done.
17 folk a day are now topping themselves in the UK.

I can well imagine what the rest of the EU's attitude to the UK will be if the UK votes to remain in.

^ Gonna be embarrassing. Cameron should go now before he gets hung.
Tight miserable cnut.

EU deal gives UK special status, says Cameron

David Cameron: "Britain will never be part of European superstate".

David Cameron says a deal struck with EU leaders will give the UK "special status" and he will campaign with his "heart and soul" to stay in the union.

The PM said the agreement, reached late on Friday after two days of talks in Brussels, would include a seven-year "emergency brake" on welfare payments.

He added the deal included changes to EU treaties and would be presented to his cabinet on Saturday at 10:00 GMT.

EU exit campaigners said the "hollow" deal offered only "very minor changes".

The unanimous agreement reached at the EU summit was first announced by European Council president Donald Tusk.

A key sticking point - child benefit curbs - will apply to existing claimants from the start of 2020 and to new claimants as soon as new laws have been passed.

The UK will also be able to enact emergency safeguards to protect the City of London, Downing Street said, and EU treaties will be amended to state explicitly that references to the requirement to seek ever-closer union "do not apply to the United Kingdom".

German Chancellor Angela Merkel predicted the package of reforms would "elicit support in the UK for the country to remain in the EU".

Once Mr Cameron has briefed his ministers at Saturday's cabinet meeting, they will be free to campaign for either side in the referendum, which has been promised by the end of 2017 but is expected in June.

Mr Cameron said he would shortly announce the date of the referendum and said he was "disappointed" but not surprised that one of his key allies, Justice Secretary Michael Gove, was to campaign for the UK to leave the EU.

The ink is hardly dry on the UK's EU deal, but immediately the focus has switched to the substance of what David Cameron has achieved and - possibly an awkward question - how many of his colleagues will argue against him.

The focus will move to whether the prime minister can keep his party politely together during a period of public disagreement.

The ability to restrict benefits to migrants is an important victory for Mr Cameron - ammunition for his argument that he has achieved changes to help reduce the number of EU migrants coming to live and work in the UK.

The proposals are complicated and do not exactly match the promises he made in the Conservative Party manifesto.

But with it - and the other commitments - it becomes harder for his critics to make the case that the agreement is flimsy and will change nothing.

Mr Cameron said he had achieved the reforms he wanted, claiming they would put the UK "in the driving seat" of one of the world's biggest markets and create a "more flexible" EU.

"The British people must now decide whether to stay in this reformed European Union or to leave," he said.

"This will be a once-in-a-generation moment to shape the destiny of our country."

At the same time as the EU reforms, the PM said further measures to strengthen the UK's sovereignty would be announced.

The deal reached between all 28 EU member states comes after several leaders objected to Mr Cameron's planned reforms.

The original aim had been to conclude the deal at an "English breakfast" meeting on Friday, which became an "English brunch", then an "English lunch" and eventually an "English dinner", at which point the agreement was announced.

Eurosceptics have dismissed the reforms, saying they will not allow the UK to block unwanted EU laws or reduce migration.

Matthew Elliott, chief executive of the Vote Leave campaign, said Mr Cameron "will now declare victory but it is an entirely hollow one".

He disputed the PM's claim that the deal was legally binding, saying it "can be ripped up by EU politicians and unelected EU judges".

As the EU summit was being concluded, another EU exit campaign, Grassroots Out, held a rally in Westminster.

Conservative MP David Davis said it was time for Britain "to take control of its own destiny", while UKIP leader Nigel Farage said the cross-party campaign was "absolutely united in fighting to get back our democracy".

EU deal gives UK special status, says PM - BBC News