Thread: Malaysian Airliner shot down over Ukraine

Originally Posted by thaimeme

Originally Posted by Lancelot

You've misquoted me. My contention is for the west to sanction Russia and support Ukraine. Supporting Ukraine is not invading Russia. Proxy wars are a nasty business but what is the alternative? Roll over and accept any thing Vlad dishes out?

The clever boys in charge of North Korea, China and Iran are taking notes.

PS- I am in no way suggesting unilateral US action; this is an European problem and if they don't care, why should the US?

Ok. Case closed....

Now run off in search of another convenient boogeyman.

OK, the West caves to Vlad and The Boogeymen suddenly become more cooperative and willing to reason- after all they saw the "down side" for complicity in shooting down a civilian air liner.

I don't understand your logic but maybe after I drink the Kool Aide I will

But watch and enjoy the way governments will to varying degrees shirk from fronting Putin for this atrocity until it's blindingly obvious to even the most pusillanimous that they must tell the guy he's a cvunt.

The world has become full of little men.

.... and right on cue is the power hungry, play both sides for all they are worth, broad beamed hausfrau, Merkel

Speaking earlier in Berlin, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said the tragedy underscored, once again, that Russia should be held responsible for the instability in Ukraine, but she responded cautiously to suggestions that Europe should follow Washington’s lead by expanding sanctions.

“Regarding sanctions, I'd like to point out that the events with the plane, as far as I remember, were not even 24 hours ago and at the moment we need to sort out an independent investigation,” she told reporters.

"So it's perhaps premature to draw conclusions before we have access to the remains of the plane." EU ministers will meet on Tuesday to discuss a possible package of new punitive measures against Russia, amid continued wariness in European capitals about the economic consequences of more stringent sanctions.

Originally Posted by thegent

Ronin, the ceiling for a fighter bomber is anything up to 45,000 ft plus.

I have no reason to disagree, not having been in the military myself but the statement was made my an ex-military pilot in the clip on Aljazeera. In case you missed it, here it is again Who shot down Flight MH17? - Inside Story - Al Jazeera English does go on for some time.

Originally Posted by Lancelot

Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over. (Dutch PM reference)

Yeah I know. But how about targeted assassinations of those responsible? The Netherlands could handle that if the West decides to lube up and allow Vlad his way.

IMHO a far better response to 911 would have been black ops, sending the Faithful responsible to an early date with the Virgins...

Who is included in those responsible? Is it the bloke that pressed the trigger, the commander of that particular crew, the whole team, even those that weren't anywhere near the launcher and knew nothing about it, Putin, all Russians...?

Next, how should the assassination targets be identified? Will Putin send Holland a list in exchange for a whacking great ball of gouda?

Then after we realise Holland is part of NATO, and Bambi would rather stay in his corner sobbing over being seen as impotent, we can have a chuckle over Holland sending the lads in to pick off an unknown number of unidentified individuals.

There will be lots of noise, always is. Meanwhile, the EU-US are busy developing new fangled weapons systems so that rogue nations will respect their might, but still haven't realised that their balls have gone AWOL.

Originally Posted by leemo

Originally Posted by Lancelot

Sure he will, no more Gouda till Russia hands them over. (Dutch PM reference)

Yeah I know. But how about targeted assassinations of those responsible? The Netherlands could handle that if the West decides to lube up and allow Vlad his way.

IMHO a far better response to 911 would have been black ops, sending the Faithful responsible to an early date with the Virgins...

Who is included in those responsible? Is it the bloke that pressed the trigger, the commander of that particular crew, the whole team, even those that weren't anywhere near the launcher and knew nothing about it, Putin, all Russians...?

Next, how should the assassination targets be identified? Will Putin send Holland a list in exchange for a whacking great ball of gouda?

Then after we realise Holland is part of NATO, and Bambi would rather stay in his corner sobbing over being seen as impotent, we can have a chuckle over Holland sending the lads in to pick off an unknown number of unidentified individuals.

There will be lots of noise, always is. Meanwhile, the EU-US are busy developing new fangled weapons systems so that rogue nations will respect their might, but still haven't realised that their balls have gone AWOL.

Yeah the pro Russian rebels can murder 300 civilians on a civilian air plane but the West "Might Get it Wrong" so better to do nothing. Considering that Europe wants Bambi to fights its battles, maybe Bambi's caution is wise after all. He is smart enough to see that the over whelming percentage of those murdered were Europeans. Since the Europeans don't care -might be bad for business- why should Bambi care?

The largest foreign investor in russia, is europe. The dominant supplier of europe's energy resources, is russia. The main destination of russia's often nefariously obtained foreign investment funds, europe- be that premier league teams, high priced real estate, or swiss bank accounts. Furthermore, they are joined by land- neighbours. In contrast, the financial engagement between the US and Russia is fairly modest.

You can talk about big hairy balls and testosterone all you like, armchair hawks, but if instead of Canada on your doorstep it was Russia (or China), and you too had substantial (indeed vital) mutual investment and trade links, you too might have a somewhat more sober assessment of the potential fallout from aggravating matters. This is without even considering the lessons of history, which are considerably more painful and real on one side of the atlantic than t'other.

So I'm afraid the transatlantic allies will not be as hawkish in europe as some of the nonsense being spouted on the other side of the atlantic. And they are right.

Originally Posted by FloridaBorn

Well if that's the case then it's well done on an instant and it sheds a different light on the topic but if not? Well it tells a different story and that all remains to be seen as it's certain in that video the fuselage including both wings and tail are still intact..

Yet the tail landed 10km away from the main wreckage....

MH17: Photos from crash site show a bucolic Ukrainian field transformed into a smouldering mass grave | National Post

Originally Posted by sabang

The largest foreign investor in russia, is europe. The dominant supplier of europe's energy resources, is russia. The main destination of russia's often nefariously obtained foreign investment funds, europe- be that premier league teams, high priced real estate, or swiss bank accounts. Furthermore, they are joined by land- neighbours. In contrast, the financial engagement between the US and Russia is fairly modest.

You can talk about big hairy balls and testosterone all you like, armchair hawks, but if instead of Canada on your doorstep it was Russia (or China), and you too had substantial (indeed vital) mutual investment and trade links, you too might have a somewhat more sober assessment of the potential fallout from aggravating matters. This is without even considering the lessons of history, which are considerably more painful and real on one side of the atlantic than t'other.

So I'm afraid the transatlantic allies will not be as hawkish in europe as some of the nonsense being spouted on the other side of the atlantic. And they are right.

No argument from me, so lets dissolve NATO, the US troops depart and every one is happy. Worked well in 1914, 1939 so it'll work now too.

I agree that the US has less skin in the game in terms of trade and Vlad will certainly not be encouraged by Europe's restraint, so let the Europeans deal with it- or not

Vlad might be thinking about some pay back for how the Germans behaved in the previous WWs. Three hundred people murdered- oh well wasn't me

That image of a gun toting, un washed unshaven man holding up a teddy bear sickens me. Someone will recognise that as the favourite of a child that has died.

Originally Posted by taxexile

But watch and enjoy the way governments will to varying degrees shirk from fronting Putin for this atrocity until it's blindingly obvious to even the most pusillanimous that they must tell the guy he's a cvunt.

The world has become full of little men.

.... and right on cue is the power hungry, play both sides for all they are worth, broad beamed hausfrau, Merkel

Speaking earlier in Berlin, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, said the tragedy underscored, once again, that Russia should be held responsible for the instability in Ukraine, but she responded cautiously to suggestions that Europe should follow Washington’s lead by expanding sanctions.

“Regarding sanctions, I'd like to point out that the events with the plane, as far as I remember, were not even 24 hours ago and at the moment we need to sort out an independent investigation,” she told reporters.

"So it's perhaps premature to draw conclusions before we have access to the remains of the plane." EU ministers will meet on Tuesday to discuss a possible package of new punitive measures against Russia, amid continued wariness in European capitals about the economic consequences of more stringent sanctions.

Yep, well spotted Tax. You can take the girl out of the DDR but you can't take the DDR out of the girl.

Like all cloned proto nazi bitches Merkel joined the commie party with as much relish as her forbears goose stepped for the Third Reich. Quite a star she was in the Hun version of Comintern and sucked on Erich Honecker's cock as if her career depended on it, evidently a good grounding for politics in the new Bundeswehr.

She can't help herself and is attracted to Putin as a whore is to the smell of a moneyed John. Old habits die hard and Putin's KGB cologne must drive her crazy for the old times, like a bitch on heat.

Actually, Tax, a pox on both their houses. Come happy Taleban and bomb the shits to their own oblivion. I couldn't give a flying toss if they all fried in some Stalinist oven.

I wonder how the Dutch must be feeling now that Merkel has fucked them over?

Fucking krauts. The Russkies raped over 2 million kraut women. I suppose when Merkel meets Putin she gets a little moist.....

This is the latest I can find on the downed Malaysian plane.

Ukraine, rebels argue over wreckage, Germany says Putin has "last chance"

Something needs to be done about Russia. Bunch of trigger happy wronguns with a cabbage fixation. Although what can one do about Russia? It would be like me strolling up to a champion boxer, slapping him and asking if he wanted a 'bunch of fives'. The next few weeks could be interesting

HRABOVE, Ukraine — A muted sun baked golden fields of hay and sunflowers. Bloated and mangled bodies gave off a fetid stench. A burly gunman who called himself Grumpy stepped into the road as a convoy of international observers snaked along the bumpy country road to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17.
“I will let none of you pass! I have an order!” he shouted. Motley gunmen in ragtag uniforms flanked out alongside him. A lanky rebel in a beekeeping suit who reeked of alcohol folded his automatic rifle in his arms. The observers wandered out, then meekly retreated.
Two days after MH17 was shot down over east Ukraine — turning a simmering separatist conflict into a crisis of global proportions — the crash site remains a hideous mess that will make it harder for investigators to establish what happened — and for relatives to get peace. As Ukraine, Russia, and Moscow-backed rebels trade barbs over which side fired the missile that brought the Boeing 777 jet down, the bodies of the 298 passengers and crew killed instantaneously were still strewn across a field, decomposing in the 85-degree heat.
Nobody seemed to know where the bodies would be taken. Ukraine wants them stored 185 miles north in Kharkiv, the only nearby city with the facilities to take them, but claims that rebels have already spirited 38 corpses to their nearby stronghold in Donetsk and conducted their own autopsies. With the wreckage from the crash spread out over a 10-square-mile radius, the many bodies still at the scene may fare worse. Ukraine claims to have found 186, and BuzzFeed counted 82 in Hrabove alone, many of them unmoved since the crash. Local firemen and police officers, some of whom had clearly spent the night drinking moonshine, listlessly shoveled body parts into black garbage bags and left them to broil at the roadside.



Determining what exactly downed the plane from 33,000 feet up in the air looks all the more difficult. Independent investigators were nowhere to be seen. Ragtag militiamen with no obvious leadership barred observers and reporters from the field. The plane’s black boxes have vanished. Ukraine claims rebels are forcing rescuers to hand over all evidence with the intention of transferring it to Russia, which has blamed Kiev for the disaster. The rebels claim not to have found them.
Observers from the OSCE, a European security agency whose 57 member states include Russia, were denied full access to the site for the second day running when they drove up on Saturday. Rebels, led by “Grumpy,” said they had orders not to let them pass that came straight from the so-called prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, a Russian named Alexander Borodai. Though the men eventually relented and let the observers walk as far as the remains of one of the plane’s two engines, they did not allow them onto the field where the wreckage lay.
There, about two dozen workers from local branches of Ukraine’s emergency services ministry wandered amidst the debris, tagging bodies with white ribbons on sticks. Some were placed into body bags and carried to the side of the road. Many others lay out to rot in the sun. Ukraine says that the rebels are forcing the rescuers to work for them under gunpoint, but the men seemed unperturbed by their presence. The numerous ambulances shuttling to and from the scene transported several gunmen, but did not remove any bodies. About 10 “experts” from local police wandered nearby making marks on clipboards. A group of pro-rebel miners, still caked in soot from their shift, stood by, awaiting instructions to help find more bodies. No cordon was set up. Many cameramen stood amid wreckage from the fuselage to get shots, nearly stepping on a hand that plaintively stretched out from under it.



The crash has starkly brought to life the realities of the Donetsk People’s Republic, which says it is an independent Russian candidate state but seems to actually be made up of myriad armed groups with no obvious order or command structure. Grumpy, the armed men’s leader, said no investigators or observers would be allowed until the “experts” — who, as provincial police officers, would have no training in handling air disasters or other crime scenes of such magnitude — had completed their work.
He said that the men were employees of the armed wing of the Donetsk People’s Republic’s “prosecutor’s office,” which the self-proclaimed prime minister has said is investigating the crime. None of the men, however, even knew what the prosecutor’s name was offhand. One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees eventually looked at the back of his “Donetsk Prosecutor’s Office” badge and found the prosecutor’s name, Ramil Khalikov. Khalikov was nowhere to be seen. The man, who declined to give his name, admitted that he had only joined the prosecutor’s office “very, very recently.”
Ukraine and the rebels accuse each other of holding up the removal of the bodies. Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk claims that international aviation experts who arrived to collect evidence were threatened by the armed men and fled the scene. Borodai, the rebel prime minister, said at a briefing on Saturday that Kiev was to blame for holding up their arrival after the United Nations Security Council authorized their mission a day earlier.



“There’s a grandmother. A body landed right in her bed. She says ‘please take this body away’. But we cannot tamper with the site,” Borodai said, according to Reuters. “Bodies of innocent people are lying out in the heat.”
Ukraine’s security service released detailed photographs on Saturday that it said suggested separatists fired the rocket near the rebel-controlled town of Snezhnoe, having mistaken the Malaysian flight for a Ukrainian cargo plane. Kiev says that Igor Bezler, a rebel commander it claims is a Russian agent, fired the rocket with the help of Russian military specialists. The rebels deny that they have the sophisticated equipment required to down aircraft at such heights, despite boasting of acquiring it only weeks earlier.
The longer it takes for an investigation to occur, the more difficult that investigation will be — and the easier it is for wild rumors and conspiracies to spread. Kremlin media has suggested that Ukraine was attempting to shoot down Russian President Vladimir Putin’s plane as it flew nearby at the same time. Numerous pro-Russian websites — including a page on Russian Facebook clone VK written in the name of militia commander Igor Strelkov that has never been proven to actually be his — have even suggested that the plane was full of “unfresh” corpses and the downing was “planted” to frame the rebels.
None of this will go any way to assuaging the agony of the 298 victims’ relatives, powerless as their loved ones’ bodies lie for a third day in a far-flung field, baked into the asphalt and rotting into the ground. Rebels have gone through their things and piled them in a corner at the edge of the site. Ukraine claims that some of them looted the victims’ credit cards and attempted to make purchases with them.
But the real losses are still by the side of the road. A stuffed toy monkey. Books about 1990s English soccer coaches. A Malaysian family’s holiday photos. A child’s diary, in Dutch. A Macbook Pro with its screen smashed, opened in an apparent attempt to see if it still worked. A toddler’s white onesie, embossed with “I HEART AMSTERDAM.”
Nearer to the village, a cross bears a sign, “HEAVEN HELP US.” An empty plastic two-liter bottle lies by the engine wreckage. Amid the stench of death all around, you can smell the alcohol. The bottle looks new.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/ch...victims-by-the

[QUOTE=taxexile;2822905[/QUOTE]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to taxexile /gent again
grrr. Well, I green you all the same.

Merkel is protecting German business interests.
I don't think the Dutch and British are going to accept it.

Originally Posted by KEVIN2008

Yeah, poor thing looks terrified.

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Originally Posted by rickschoppers

This is the latest I can find on the downed Malaysian plane.

Ukraine, rebels argue over wreckage, Germany says Putin has "last chance"

from your link:

The Ukrainian security council in Kiev said staff of the emergencies ministry had found 186 bodies and had checked some 18 sq.km (7 square miles) of the scattered 25-sq.km crash site. But the workers were not free to conduct a normal investigation.

yet some demented rebel commander says,...

Malaysia Plane Filled with Already Dead Bodies

A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

from ricks link:

Midday temperatures are around 30 Celsius (85 Fahrenheit).

Here we go, dust off the tinfoil hats...

“I will let none of you pass! I have an order!” he shouted. Motley gunmen in ragtag uniforms flanked out alongside him. A lanky rebel in a beekeeping suit who reeked of alcohol folded his automatic rifle in his arms.

Local firemen and police officers, some of whom had clearly spent the night drinking moonshine, listlessly shoveled body parts into black garbage bags and left them to broil at the roadside.

Ragtag militiamen with no obvious leadership barred observers and reporters from the field. The plane’s black boxes have vanished.

One rebel in a safari hat who routinely made casual threats to shoot reporters in the knees

Rebels have gone through their things and piled them in a corner at the edge of the site. Ukraine claims that some of them looted the victims’ credit cards and attempted to make purchases with them.

None of this will go any way to assuaging the agony of the 298 victims’ relatives, powerless as their loved ones’ bodies lie for a third day in a far-flung field, baked into the asphalt and rotting into the ground.

Its amazing and quite frightening to realise that a bunch of brain dead alcohol fuelled gorillas armed with rifles can literally render Europe, Malaysia, Australia the UN and Nato powerless and completely impotent in the matter of the investigation of this accident and respectful treatment of the bodies of the victims.

It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.

The end.

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.

The end.

Except for females under 40. The world needs a good supply of quality whores.

Let's just start with kicking all the Russians out of Thailand.

Originally Posted by koman

Originally Posted by Little Chuchok

It's fucking simple.Stop all visas being issued to Russian passport holders traveling overseas.

The end.

Except for very good looking females under 40. The world needs a good supply of quality whores.

Changed that for you, but 100% behind your post.

Originally Posted by leemo

Yeah, poor thing looks terrified.

Annoying Canada will do that to ya.