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  1. #1
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    Thai brides 'behind foreign UK pensions increase'

    Rise in men marrying Thai brides 'behind foreign pensions increase' - Telegraph

    Men who move abroad to marry “Thai brides” they met online are adding to the cost of state pensions for foreigners who have never lived in Britain, government sources suggest.

    The growth in internet romances may be partly behind the rise in foreign women who are receiving state pensions despite never paying tax in the UK, it was claimed.

    A new law will be announced in the Queen’s Speech on Wednesday intended to close the loophole and ensure that only those who contribute through the National Insurance system can receive a British state pension.

    However, critics of the reforms raised concerns that some women who leave Britain with their husbands and have children abroad could be penalised as a result of the tighter rules.

    Experts warned that the new arrangements would be a “bureaucratic nightmare” to enforce.

    According to government figures, taxpayers are funding the pensions of some 220,000 people living outside the UK, half of whom are foreign citizens who have never set foot in Britain.

    The pensions, which can be worth up to £3,500 a year and last until death, cost taxpayers £410 million a year. Between 2002 and 2012, the number of pensioners overseas receiving a married person’s pension rose by 17 per cent. A government source said the increase in internet match-making websites may be partly responsible.

    “Technology facilitates relationships across the continents in a way that wasn’t the case 20 years ago,” the source said. There are “more people using the net and pairing up” and this is likely to be having some impact on the figures, the source added.

    The government said the rise in spouses overseas receiving the pension was also due to people living longer, as well as a legal change that meant men have also been eligible for the payments since 2010. Emigration was likely to have been an additional factor.

    David Davis, the senior Conservative MP, and former party chairman, said he was concerned that the reforms could penalise full-time mothers who moved overseas with their husbands to keep their families together.

    “It is vital the government doesn’t find itself carrying out accidental, unintended social engineering in its understandable enthusiasm to save money,” Mr Davis, the MP for Haltemprice and Howden, said. “In particular we must not penalise decent conventional families trying to do the best for their children in their advancing years.”

    Steve Webb, the pension’s minister, conceded that a group of women who moved overseas with their partners before having children would lose out. Men in the same situation who are full-time fathers would also be affected.

    Those who are “living in another country and then have a family there” are an “obscure” group who should be looking to their new home states for support, he said. “I think we are protecting the people we would want to protect.”

  2. #2
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    UK taxpayers are funding a few around here, incl offspring of dead pensioners. mugs.

  3. #3
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    I know a Brit retired in Thailand, married a pattaya whore and she gets 16,000 baht a month.

    Sick and stupid system

  4. #4
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    The benefit fraud hotline can salve ones anger.



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    I know a Brit retired in Thailand, married a pattaya whore and she gets 16,000 baht a month.

    Sick and stupid system

    I hope that the Brit takes the cash and makes her work for each baht in just like at the start of their relationship. How romantic. One would guess though that the 16k actually gives 10k to her Thai husband, and 6k to her parents.

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    So if you meet the criteria, you've got until 2016 to marry your bird so she can cadge up to 3,500 quid a year off the hapless British taxpayer.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo
    I know a Brit retired in Thailand, married a pattaya whore and she gets 16,000 baht a month.

    Sick and stupid system
    Really ??? think again ,,, how about if your retired friend had married an English whore who had lived on benefits all her life ,, would that be ok then ?? because according to the system of what these Tories are proposing that will be fine .

    Total bollox .

    I have paid all my life into this pension system ,, infact I am overpaying for sweet FA now as I am given no choice , it will add nothing more to the pot I have accrued ,, so after paying in for over 35 years its ok my Thai wife gets nothing from my pension ?


    Wish you people would look a bit further than the Tory bullshit published so they can rip more money off from the poor bastards who have paid in all theyre lives to support the broken rotten to the core banking system in the UK
    I'm proud of my 38" waist , also proud I have never done drugs

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    ^your wife should get nothing, same as she gets from Thailand

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    If the British Government really wants to be serious about stopping benefits to people who have contributed nothing to the system; they should be able to cut off about half the population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    ^your wife should get nothing, same as she gets from Thailand
    Sorry I don't follow your reasoning , my ex in England didn't work other than bring up the family , she would qualify, although she contributed nothing.

    BTW my Thai wife has paid in for 4 years now.

    I fail to see why she can't recieve what I have paid for.

    Oh hold on ,, mabe your right , it would be good to savi it to give to the thousands of single mother Lithuainiuns and EU subjects who sponge here now , how remiss of me.


    FFS. Give me a break !

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigelandjan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    ^your wife should get nothing, same as she gets from Thailand
    Sorry I don't follow your reasoning , my ex in England didn't work other than bring up the family , she would qualify, although she contributed nothing.

    BTW my Thai wife has paid in for 4 years now.

    I fail to see why she can't recieve what I have paid for.

    Oh hold on ,, mabe your right , it would be good to savi it to give to the thousands of single mother Lithuainiuns and EU subjects who sponge here now , how remiss of me.


    FFS. Give me a break !
    I think if your wife carries on paying non-employment stamps in the UK, about £5.00 per week, she would still qualify for a UK state pension at age 67 ? That's assuming she paid for those 4 years as an legally registered employee.

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    Question

    Those who are “living in another country and then have a family there” are an “obscure” group who should be looking to their new home states for support, he said. “I think we are protecting the people we would want to protect.”[/quote]
    WTF I have done exactly that. I have paid into the system for 30 years and look forward to that money when I stop working which will go a little bit further over here than it would in poxy blighty. Politicians....WANKERS.

  13. #13
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    ^ If you are fully paid up in the UK for enough years to qualify then you will get a state pension won't you? (Although it will never increase annually as it would if you lived in the UK)

    Is this not about stopping foreigners getting a widows pension when they have never contributed anything into the UK or even been in the UK before? If it is then it is hard not to agree with.
    Last edited by rawlins; 09-05-2013 at 03:50 AM.

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    Fine, Mister Cameron.

    Now may those of us who retire overseas now receive the annual inflation upgrade instead of having our pensions frozen?

    I paid full UK taxes and NIC for 30 years and never claimed a penny in benefits. Furthermore I had private health insurance for most of my life and thus saved the State money.

    What this is really about is that the UK is becoming desperate for money and the government is raiding expatriates' incomes because most of us don't vote.

    There have been largely unpublicized tax changes in recent years which have hit Commonwealth citizens with UK property hard. Now this.

    If HM government want to save money they could always scrap Trident. What a ridiculous white elephant that is.
    I see fish. They are everywhere. They don't know they are fish.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nigelandjan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorenzo View Post
    ^your wife should get nothing, same as she gets from Thailand
    Sorry I don't follow your reasoning , my ex in England didn't work other than bring up the family , she would qualify, although she contributed nothing.

    BTW my Thai wife has paid in for 4 years now.

    I fail to see why she can't recieve what I have paid for.

    Oh hold on ,, mabe your right , it would be good to savi it to give to the thousands of single mother Lithuainiuns and EU subjects who sponge here now , how remiss of me.


    FFS. Give me a break !
    So in England you pay more when you are married than if you are single to cover the cost of your wife?

    Didn't think so Twat!

  16. #16
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    I remember reading as a legally married American couple, you'd have to remain married for 10 years before the immigrant spouse has SS entitlements.

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    Oh, the stress. Old folks not getting more after all they got all those years. The young should be the ones revolting. What's their future going to be like. They were born into a screwed up nation compliments of the old folks.

    It does seem insane that a nation on the other side of the world has to pay someone who never lived there a nice sum of money each month at the expense of its citizens. They could create a few jobs screening those getting funds and kicking them off the payrolls if they are a 27 year old wife of a dead farang collecting free money each month. It's all insane. If you wife wants the money that bad, she should move to the UK when you kick the bucket.

    Despite what the whiner say, there is a serious problem here. Most people in the UK would vote to support a crackdown. In the future, they probably support other changes to bring money back to the western countries.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwill View Post
    a 27 year old wife of a dead farang collecting free money each month. It's all insane. If you wife wants the money that bad, she should move to the UK when you kick the bucket.
    A 27 year old wife would not be eligible for any UK pension until she reached the UK pension age, and only then if she had not re-married. The widow's pension is only payable to widows aged 45 and over, and at ages 45 to 54 the amount is reduced. Whatever age the widow is when her husband dies determines the amount she receives for life and she loses the pension if she remarries. Under age 50 the amounts are pitiful anyway.

    This proposal seeks to deny a basic State pension from elderly ladies who have depended upon their British husbands for support and who, upon the husband's death, may have no means of support.

    The Cameron government is making quite a name for itself in screwing the elderly, and expatriates in general but if they do not change tack in the near future there is a real problem emerging.

    Large numbers of UK retirees living on just the State pension overseas are reaching their seventies and becoming impoverished due to their pensions being frozen. Many are ill and broke despite having worked in the UK for 30+ years. If their pensions aren't upgraded soon the UK is going to have hundreds of thousands of destitute old people returning to the UK...so forget about screwing the widows, many of these men will be forced to return to the UK in order to upgrade their benefits in the next five years, with their foreign wives in tow.


    (Nice avatar BTW)

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    ^
    Very good points.....and furthermore, if the governments had used the contributions properly to fund the retirement years of all these people, instead of pissing it away on vote buying ventures, there would not be a problem.

    Those who worked and paid into the pension fund, did so under a clear set of rules and expectations. The rules are being changed long after the starting whistle has blown.

    There was more than enough actuarial data available over the years to allow for proper funding....and part of that was to provide for surviving spouses. There was no mention of ethnic or national origin, or having to have lived in the UK under the prevailing rules. A spouse is a spouse...regardless, and should be treated as such.

    The lack of indexing for expats is a total disgrace. Again, when you pay your dues and make the same contributions as those who continue to live in the UK...why should you be paid less or treated differently....when you contributed the same amounts into the plan..?

    This is not welfare or some spurious government benefit we are talking about....it is a pension plan which was paid for by those who paid into it. It is not a handout.. and the payments made to retirees are nothing more than what they paid for during their productive years.


    To me, these discriminations seem very much like breaches of contract.
    I blame the Americans......and Thaksin.

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    It amazes me that there are people who could have worked for 30 years in the west and be so destitute. Half of the 'destitute' farangs in Thailand threw away everything on wine, a woman and song. I don't have much sympathy for the guys who came out here after divorce and hooked up again and had kids in their 50s. Now in their 60s and 70s, they have a family to pay for and they are struggling??? It's insanity.


    On a side note, if you think the UK government is wrong about cracking down on expats and the elderly, you certainly must agree that Thailand is totally scum in terms of the way it treats its citizens and foreigners living here. There's really nothing for the average Thais and foreigners who work here. You can't have it both ways in saying the UK government is wrong yet Thailand is 'fair' to its people. Shame on both governments.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by koman View Post
    ^

    This is not welfare or some spurious government benefit we are talking about....it is a pension plan which was paid for by those who paid into it. It is not a handout.. and the payments made to retirees are nothing more than what they paid for during their productive years.


    To me, these discriminations seem very much like breaches of contract.

    Do married people pay more into the plan? Do company pensions in the UK transfer over to wives upon a death as well? Would a company employee contribute more being married? Would a company employee's pension transfer over to someone who married that employee after that employee left the company?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by koman View Post
    ^

    This is not welfare or some spurious government benefit we are talking about....it is a pension plan which was paid for by those who paid into it. It is not a handout.. and the payments made to retirees are nothing more than what they paid for during their productive years.


    To me, these discriminations seem very much like breaches of contract.

    Do married people pay more into the plan? Do company pensions in the UK transfer over to wives upon a death as well? Would a company employee contribute more being married? Would a company employee's pension transfer over to someone who married that employee after that employee left the company?
    No...but you are missing an important point. Those who paid into the plan did not set the rules...the government did. There was always a built in provision for widows benefits upon the death of the pensioner. This benefit did not make any distinctions with respect to the status of the widow other than being the legal spouse of the deceased....and meeting certain age criteria.

    With respect to company pensions....yes any decent company pension has a surviving spouse benefit. (Mine is 65% of the full pension amount...for life..indexed at 60% of CPI with a 5% cap annually )...and there is no penalty if my spouse happens to be Thai....or a Kalahari bushgirl.....nor is there any requirement for her to have ever left her own country.....and it does not matter if we were married after leaving the company or not. The spouse survivor benefit is an actuarial component of a good pension....its not fucking welfare....it is fully paid for.

    I get a partial UK pension (non indexed) I also get the full Canada Pension which is fully indexed regardless of where I live. My Thai wife will get nothing from the UK but the Canadian pension will pay her a survivor benefit for life....indexed to inflation. I don't know the exact amount...but it will certainly be helpful. She will also get a very decent income from my company pension....which is a fully funded defined benefit plan. No taxpayer money involved.....it's MY money...supplemented by contributions from the company.

    There is no practical way to fund a pension plan to accommodate for differences between an ex-Pattaya hooker spouse or a aging French Countess spouse. If they are legal spouses....they qualify for the income.

    Again I paid in full for these "benefits" over 40+ years, so none of it is "free" and the "taxpayers" have had the benefit of my quite substantial contributions over 4 decades....so now I just want my money back...with a bit of interest. The taxpayers are not giving me a goddam nickel...thank you very much.

    A lot of people seem to get confused between paid up pension plan incomes and government "benefits"...which are never funded and therefore have to be paid out of current and future general tax revenues. They are totally different things.

    In closing I would add, that anyone who relies solely on government pensions or anything else to look after them in retirement is being very foolish and short sighted. As can be seen, governments can not be relied on to deliver in the long term. They can change the rules anytime and there is not much you can do about it. Funded company pensions are held in trust so the company can't raid the funds. They are managed by investment specialists and protected by trust laws.

    And then there is the private self funded stuff, which most people just don't bother with.....because they think the government is there to take care of them.....

  23. #23
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    Goodwill.

    When these "destitute" expatriates contributed into the State pension scheme they were given to understand that they had a legal entitlement to a pension from the Government at age 65 and that their widows would receive a pension instead if they died before them.

    Now they are retired and, after it is too late for them to make alternative provisions, this government is pulling the rug from under their feet.

    It is a complete disgrace.

    At least the Thai government doesn't make false promises to its pensioners; they know that they must make provision for their old age, usually by creating a family network.

    The problem here is that it is the government that makes the laws so there is nothing illegal about it - the Government simply changes the law.

    The money spent of widows pensions is a pittance compared with the defence budget. Scrap Trident and the UK can have a properly equipped police force, world class hospitals and schools.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by koman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Goodwill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by koman View Post
    ^

    This is not welfare or some spurious government benefit we are talking about....it is a pension plan which was paid for by those who paid into it. It is not a handout.. and the payments made to retirees are nothing more than what they paid for during their productive years.


    To me, these discriminations seem very much like breaches of contract.

    Do married people pay more into the plan? Do company pensions in the UK transfer over to wives upon a death as well? Would a company employee contribute more being married? Would a company employee's pension transfer over to someone who married that employee after that employee left the company?
    No...but you are missing an important point. Those who paid into the plan did not set the rules...the government did. There was always a built in provision for widows benefits upon the death of the pensioner. This benefit did not make any distinctions with respect to the status of the widow other than being the legal spouse of the deceased....and meeting certain age criteria.

    With respect to company pensions....yes any decent company pension has a surviving spouse benefit. (Mine is 65% of the full pension amount...for life..indexed at 60% of CPI with a 5% cap annually )...and there is no penalty if my spouse happens to be Thai....or a Kalahari bushgirl.....nor is there any requirement for her to have ever left her own country.....and it does not matter if we were married after leaving the company or not. The spouse survivor benefit is an actuarial component of a good pension....its not fucking welfare....it is fully paid for.

    I get a partial UK pension (non indexed) I also get the full Canada Pension which is fully indexed regardless of where I live. My Thai wife will get nothing from the UK but the Canadian pension will pay her a survivor benefit for life....indexed to inflation. I don't know the exact amount...but it will certainly be helpful. She will also get a very decent income from my company pension....which is a fully funded defined benefit plan. No taxpayer money involved.....it's MY money...supplemented by contributions from the company.

    There is no practical way to fund a pension plan to accommodate for differences between an ex-Pattaya hooker spouse or a aging French Countess spouse. If they are legal spouses....they qualify for the income.

    Again I paid in full for these "benefits" over 40+ years, so none of it is "free" and the "taxpayers" have had the benefit of my quite substantial contributions over 4 decades....so now I just want my money back...with a bit of interest. The taxpayers are not giving me a goddam nickel...thank you very much.

    A lot of people seem to get confused between paid up pension plan incomes and government "benefits"...which are never funded and therefore have to be paid out of current and future general tax revenues. They are totally different things.

    In closing I would add, that anyone who relies solely on government pensions or anything else to look after them in retirement is being very foolish and short sighted. As can be seen, governments can not be relied on to deliver in the long term. They can change the rules anytime and there is not much you can do about it. Funded company pensions are held in trust so the company can't raid the funds. They are managed by investment specialists and protected by trust laws.

    And then there is the private self funded stuff, which most people just don't bother with.....because they think the government is there to take care of them.....

    Excellent info. Thanks.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thormaturge View Post

    It is a complete disgrace.
    Yep.


    At least the Thai government doesn't make false promises to its pensioners; they know that they must make provision for their old age, usually by creating a family network.
    Still a complete disgrace. And do you think you will get property in your wife's name upon her death? Will you get your wife's Thai pension? You might even lose your visa to stay in Thailand if she dies. It's a terrible system for the poor majority of Thailand and it's cruel to foreigners as well. But it works well for the wealthiest so who cares, right.


    The problem here is that it is the government that makes the laws so there is nothing illegal about it - the Government simply changes the law.
    In this case some may not like it but there are probably a majority who will think it is the right move. For some things it's now or later. The older folks are complaining but the world and its problems you see out your window were created by the older folks. Just like everyone else they need to face changes which may not be to their liking.

    The money spent of widows pensions is a pittance compared with the defense budget. Scrap Trident and the UK can have a properly equipped police force, world class hospitals and schools.
    Totally agree with doing things like this.

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