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  1. #26
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    Your talking about transport.
    What about storage? How do you store solar power so it can be used at times of low production?
    There will probably be a time when the collectors are in space and the energy is zapped back by microwave or laser, obviating incinsistant production issues. But that's some way off.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall
    Electricity travels at almost the speed of light. It's there when there is a grid, and you turn the switch.
    Yes but you need a global grid that spans the whole world east-west so there is always production going on. It would be a little difficult to fit America and Australia into that grid. A grid spanning Europe, Asia and Africa is easier. Always presuming that there would be no political problems with instable regions.

    I agree with your comment about overpowered and overweight cars.

    And for many purposes, like the chemical industry we still need carbohydrates. But that would be ok, we don't need to get consumption to zero, I believe.
    "don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence"

  3. #28
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    Wind Power


    Siemens Government Technologies will construct the largest wind project ever undertaken by the US federal government, and electricity from the wind turbines will account for more than 60 percent of the electricity needs of the Pantex nuclear facility. If “Pantex” and “nuclear facility” don’t ring a bell, well, we had to look it up, too. It’s a high security installation near Amarillo, Texas, run by an agency of the Department of Energy called the National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA), which conducts a set of interlocking missions related to nuclear weapons security and emergency response.

    Why a nuclear facility needs help from wind power

    In a word, money. Unencumbered by the safety issues and water resource issues that have been bedeviling the nuclear power industry, wind energy is rapidly proving to be an economical choice in wind-rich states like Texas.

    The wind farm will be built with no up-front cost to NNSA, under the kind of power purchase agreement that is becoming commonplace in the solar industry, and it will provide the Pantex Plant with an average of $2.9 million annually in savings over the life of its 20-year contract.

    The wind farm, which is actually located on about 1,500 acres of federal property just east of the Pantex Plant, will be composed of five 2.3 megawatt turbines and will generate about 45 million kWh of electricity annually.

    As an important side benefit, the wind farm will also serve as a research site for NNSA’s education partner, Texas Tech University, which was recently selected as the site of the Department of Energy’s new wind turbine test facility, the Scaled Wind Farm Technology.: Siemens Will Build Biggest Wind Farm Ever for Federal Government

    Last year Siemens completed the Griffin Wind Farm project in Scotland.

    Siemens has announced the successful completion of the Griffin wind power farm, located approximately 19 miles northwest of Perth in the Scottish Highlands. The wind power farm has a capacity of 156 MW and is expected to generate enough power to supply over 80,000 homes.: Siemens UK - Siemens completes Griffin wind farm project in the Highlands


    SSE - Griffin
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  4. #29
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    Big Oil and the Auto industry are often painted as the demons in this global warming thing. Big Oil certainly does not help this perception by being the main funders of bogus climate change denial 'science'- although even here, we should be careful not to paint with too broad a brush either. Koch Industries and Exxon Mobil are the biggest individual culprits.

    To take such a one eyed view though, is to deny the considerable technological progress that has already been made in these industries. Back in JD Rockefellers day, the waste and pollution from the oil industry was spectacular, truly spectacular- whole rivers on fire, burning off the 'waste' from oil refining. A lot of this 'waste' we now call petrol, or gasoline- ethanol to the more technically minded. Industry and households had no use for anything lighter than paraffin/kerosine back then- or maybe you now call that avgas. LPG- Fuggedabatit, just burnt at the welllhead. Actually, much of it still is. Similarly, how much more efficiency does a motor vehicle derive from it's fuel source now, and how much less pollution does it produce, compared to a vintage car?

    Thing is, many of these demonised 'polluting industries' are also at the forefront of research to develop cleaner, more efficient energy technologies. Pure profit motive, nothing more. Don't ask me why, but it is really only BP that bothers to remind us of that (umm, lets ferget about that small Gulf spill)- although Chevron now has a nice green floral logo.
    Last edited by sabang; 23-02-2013 at 07:32 PM.
    probes Aliens

  5. #30
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    I'm happy to hear renewable energy is gaining traction no matter what the motivation. I wish more people were aware of the fact that it’s getting cheaper to generate their own electricity. Some people are even taking themselves off the grid altogether now. There are some great guides out there on how to do this, some of which are listed on this site www.diyenergyreview.com if you’re interested?

  6. #31
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    People also take note to what extend they are lied to. The right-wing nuts can twaddle all day long about Solyndra, and the evils of subsidies for renewable energy. Reality is different.

    "The global fossil fuel subsidies were $523 billion and renewable energy subsidies $88 billion in 2011." Energy subsidies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Imagine what kind of grid you could build with $523 billion. Probably several times around the world.

    People are fed up to watch Exxon, Chevron, BP, Shell, Total etc making profits in excess of $30 billion per year each, and don't even pay a penny of taxes. That's unconcealed robbery of us, and our governments. Well, they are complicit with it.

    They are also fed up with the lie that supply and demand make the price of oil. In reality, speculation on oil alone adds more than 20% to the price of gas. In the case of the US, $600 a year per average household. Speculation seen adding $600 to your gas bill - Oct. 13, 2011

    It's not about global warming. We don't even have to talk about the other damage to the environment. That fossil fuels are a massive liability on the economy, and the wealth of each of us does the job just fine.

  7. #32
    Guest Member S Landreth's Avatar
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    Solar Power – From subsidized to sustainable in 2014


    Deutsche Bank just released new analyses concluding that global solar market will become sustainable on its own terms by the end of 2014, no longer needing subsidies to continue performing.

    The German-based bank said that rooftop solar is looking especially robust, and sees strong demand in solar markets in India, China, Britain, Germany, India, and the United States. As a result, Deutsche Bank actually increased its forecast for solar demand in 2013 to 30 gigawatts — a 20 percent increase over 2012.

    Here’s Renew Economy with a summary of Deutsche Banks’s logic:

    The key for Deutsche is the emergence of unsubsidised markets in many key countries. It points, for instance, to India, where despite delays in the national solar program, huge demand for state based schemes has produced very competitive tenders, in the [12 cents per kilowatt hour] range. Given the country’s high solar radiation profile and high electricity prices paid by industrial customers, it says several conglomerates are considering large scale implementation of solar for self consumption.

    “Grid parity has been reached in India even despite the high cost of capital of around 10-12 percent,” Deutsche Bank notes, and also despite a slight rise in module prices of [3 to 5 cents per kilowatt] in recent months (good for manufacturers).

    Italy is another country that appears to be at grid parity, where several developers are under advanced discussions to develop unsubsidized projects in Southern Italy. Deutsche Bank says that for small commercial enterprises that can achieve 50 percent or more self consumption, solar is competitive with grid electricity in most parts of Italy, and commercial businesses in Germany that have the load profile to achieve up to 90 percent self consumption are also finding solar as an attractive source of power generation.

    Deutsche bank says demand expected in subsidised markets such as Japan and the UK, including Northern Ireland, is expected to be strong, the US is likely to introduce favourable legislation, including giving solar installations the same status as real estate investment trusts, strong pipelines in Africa and the Middle east, and unexpectedly strong demand in countries such as Mexico and Caribbean nations means that its forecasts for the year are likely to rise.

    As Renew Economy also points out, this is the third report in the past month anticipating a bright future for the global solar market: UBS released a report that concluded an “unsubsidized solar revolution” was in the works, “Thanks to significant cost reductions and rising retail tariffs, households and commercial users are set to install solar systems to reduce electricity bills – without any subsidies.” And Macquarie Group argued that costs for rooftop solar in Germany have fallen so far that even with subsidy cuts “solar installations could continue at a torrid pace.”

    Here in America, solar power installations boomed over the course of 2011 and 2012, even as the price of solar power systems continued to plunge. To a large extent, the American solar boom has been driven by third party leasing agreements — which are heavily involved in rooftop installation.

    Meanwhile, on the international scene, the cost of manufacturing solar panels in China is expected to drop to an all-new low of 42 cents per watt in 2015, and power generated from solar is predicted to undercut that produced by both coal and most forms of natural gas within a decade.

    Solar Report Stunner: Unsubsidized 'Grid Parity Has Been Reached In India', Italy--With More Countries Coming in 2014

  8. #33
    ENT
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    Great news.

    It was only a few months ago that some TD members were ridiculing the alternative energy systems coming on line, and now some of them have reversed their stance.

    Ah, well, welcome aboard, wankers.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENT View Post
    Great news.

    It was only a few months ago that some TD members were ridiculing the alternative energy systems coming on line, and now some of them have reversed their stance.

    Only because they might see a possible profit and investment incentive.

    Saving the world is big business.

  10. #35
    Thailand Expat draco888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainfall View Post

    They are also fed up with the lie that supply and demand make the price of oil. In reality, speculation on oil alone adds more than 20% to the price of gas. In the case of the US, $600 a year per average household. Speculation seen adding $600 to your gas bill - Oct. 13, 2011
    What a suprise the Consumer Federation of America is saying consumers are paying too much for energy and evil speculators are to blame! Interesting that they have been able to calculate the speculator premium to precisely as well!

  11. #36
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    Cooling Towers 8 of them with 1 black top smoke stack

    That's called Steam.

    These stupid things are a waste of money. Cost a fortune to build, if its too windy can't work, if its not windy enough don't work. Maintenance cost is through the roof and constant.

    Too old to Rock 'N' Roll :

    Too young to Die !

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Metal
    Cooling Towers 8 of them with 1 black top smoke stack
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Metal
    That's called Steam.
    Black smoke stack on cooling towers. Oh my!

    It is condensed water droplets. They can look dark like clouds that are also just water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Metal
    These stupid things are a waste of money. Cost a fortune to build, if its too windy can't work, if its not windy enough don't work. Maintenance cost is through the roof and constant.
    Again oh my!

    They are not cheap, true. But the modern ones are quite low in maintenance and produce a lot of power. Their problem is that they don't always produce power and not always at the time it is needed. Over any sufficiently large area though and connected to a grid of continental scale there is always wind production going on. They are not THE solution but can be part of it.

  13. #38
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    world govt's are never going to go renewable to much revenue collected from oil gas coal etc.

    There are many alternatives available that would help many farming communities around the world, that are sustainable as well.

  14. #39
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    Viaspace : Giant King Grass Information

    here's one such alternative.

  15. #40
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    Daft putting off the inevitable - Nuclear in massive numbers ASAP (including Iran). Electric cars and everything else. That young lad the other day who devised a completely safe mini nuclear power station good for a town - genius; that's the way forward.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasojack View Post
    world govt's are never going to go renewable to much revenue collected from oil gas coal etc.

    There are many alternatives available that would help many farming communities around the world, that are sustainable as well.
    Community, sustainability, and substance isn't important, Jack.

    Profit-mongering is.

    So-called alternative energy models will certainly fall under the rule of them before long.

  17. #42
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  18. #43
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    We all have to use less. Anything else is window dressing!

    Even in British Columbia where the majority of the power is hydro they still buy coal-fired power for the US. Why? Because real electric power cannot be stored so hydro cannot cope with peaks it can only be used for base loading.

    Tesla and all that rubbish? There is insufficient energy produced in the world to power all the cars if they were electric.
    No one on TD is gay. If suspect, it was probably because of the way they were reared.
    I apologize if any offence was caused. unless it was intended.
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  19. #44
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    Biogas is an interesting one. the material thats used will to so degree undergo anaerobic fermentation in the environment releasing methane and carbon dioxide. in the short term, about 100 years, methane is 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas.

    I would argue that this is something that should be factored into biomass. that some of this methane thats being captured and burnt, is being kept out of the environment and that this should be factored into the co2 emissions of biogas.

    likewise for gas generated electricity, when the gas comes from fragging.... which is quite leaky. I suspect that the lower emissions of co2 from gas derived electricity compared to coal, could evaporate if one factored in the contribution from all that leaking methane.

    ENT we were ridiculing you simply because your electrolysing of water with a cars alternator in order to power the engine which runs the alternator.... was fundamentally flawed and only worthy of ridicule.
    Whilst the system can create improved efficiency in the engine, its only because of the water that contaminates the hydrogen causes the engine to run more efficiently at the cost of fucking it into an early grave.. no a problem for WWII bombers, but a big one for domestic cars. Ahhr wait I forgot you live an alternate reality where the second law of thermodynamics is advisory rather than mandatory..

    BTW there is one company in thailand selling equipment to process biogas for use in CNG cars/trucks

  20. #45
    euston has flown

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    Quote Originally Posted by VocalNeal
    Even in British Columbia where the majority of the power is hydro they still buy coal-fired power for the US. Why? Because real electric power cannot be stored so hydro cannot cope with peaks it can only be used for base loading.
    usually its the other way round. coal power stations take many hours to warm up and go online. hydro power stations can go online and provide power in 10's of seconds.

    A good example being Dinorwig pumped storage power statstion in wales. It stores waste base load electricity from the night time operation of nuclear power stations (which cannot economically vary their load) to pump water into a storage lake. This water is then used to provide short term electricity during TV adverts and sudden generating losses.

    If hydro in british colmbis cannot cope with peak demands, I would suggest thats its because they don't have idling turbines on the hydro powerplants to bring online for teak demand. That could be becuase they cannot fit the extra turbines into the dams or these things are just too expensive to have idling waiting for peak periods.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazz View Post
    This water is then used to provide short term electricity during TV adverts and sudden generating losses.
    What on earth does that mean?

  22. #47
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    at the time that the station was designed and bult, we had 3 tv stations only one of which had adverts. there wasa issue with millions of people using the advertising breaks to pop into the kitchen and make a cup of tea. This would add demand to the national grid in the high hundreds of MW's for 5-10 minutes. the same at the end of the programs too.

    As for generating losses, I mean, when a power station stops providing power to the grid because something's broken.

  23. #48
    ENT
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazz View Post
    ENT we were ridiculing you simply because your electrolysing of water with a cars alternator in order to power the engine which runs the alternator.... was fundamentally flawed and only worthy of ridicule.
    Whilst the system can create improved efficiency in the engine, its only because of the water that contaminates the hydrogen causes the engine to run more efficiently at the cost of fucking it into an early grave.. no a problem for WWII bombers, but a big one for domestic cars. Ahhr wait I forgot you live an alternate reality where the second law of thermodynamics is advisory rather than mandatory..
    Another one of your "shoot the messenger" posts. From a guy who doesn't know his periodic tables and claims the fluorine is an essential nutrient, your hazey alternate reality, Hazz- ard.

    The two hydrogen powered cars I set up in Chiangmai are still operating well, no problems, the motors haven't crapped out and both still saving 30% fuel running on one alternator/ engine.

    Your theories don't match reality, so go check with NASA about LH with LOX, go check with any hydrogen powered vehicle company. They have news for you.
    “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? John 10:34.

  24. #49
    ENT
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    Getting away from hydrogen fueled internal combustion motors, hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles, including hybrids have been in use for a while.

    Hyundai's latest announcement on hydrogen cars.


    Hyundai Motor Co. announced Tuesday that it has become the first company to begin mass production of a hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicle, with a goal of having the first cars hit European streets early next month.

    The company plans to lease 15 of its ix35 vehicles to the Municipality of Copenhagen, Denmark, over the next few months and wants to get 1,000 of its vehicles on the road by 2015. Those vehicles will be leased to private companies and governments. Hyundai hopes to start selling the car to consumers sometime in 2015.

    Frank Ahrens, vice president of global corporate communications with the company, says the rollout is starting in Europe because they have a better hydrogen gas station infrastructure in place. With prices per vehicle in the "upper $100,000s per car," the ix35—which emits only water vapor as its exhaust—is too expensive for general consumers right now, he says. The company hopes to bring the price of hydrogen cell cars down to about $50,000 by the time they're ready to sell to consumers.

    "Is this the ultimate car of the future, we don't know, but we think it'll be one of them," he says. "We think it's time to get these out on the road and in front of people's faces."

    Fuel cell vehicles use hydrogen gas combined with oxygen from the environment to create electricity in what is known as the fuel cell stack, which then powers a quiet electric motor. The only waste product is water vapor or a few water droplets.

    The Department of Energy notes that
    fuel cell vehicles "have the potential to significantly reduce our dependence on foreign oil and lower harmful emissions that contribute to climate change."

    Hyundai has been developing its hydrogen fuel cell technology since 1998, but until recently cars powered by the technology would have cost more than $1 million. Experts say the long-promised technology could one day replace internal combustion engines, but public concerns about safety and government indecision about which alternative fuel vehicle would be most appropriate for the U.S. market have slowed things down.

    "Battery makers and fuel cell makers have faced a challenge where every two years the media or the government switches the flavor of the month. First it was batteries, then fuel cells, then it was ethanol," says David Friedman, deputy director of the Union of Concerned Scientists' Clean Vehicles Program. "That created a lot of market uncertainty for companies—funding has gone up and down as public perceptions have gone up and down."
    https://www.evernote.com/pub/view/ds...7-4dd9215cf5a4

  25. #50
    Thailand Expat draco888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENT View Post
    Great news.

    It was only a few months ago that some TD members were ridiculing the alternative energy systems coming on line, and now some of them have reversed their stance.

    Ah, well, welcome aboard, wankers.
    Yet another angry man. What's the point? Is it the forum that makes you angry or are you angry all of the time? If the former there is a simple answer. Unless you enjoy being angry?

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