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  1. #51
    たのむよ。
    The Gentleman Scamp's Avatar
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    3 kids is enough to last a foking priest for a while isn't it?
    That's redworthy mate, he's still my brother even if he's a godbotherer - i'll let you off this once.

  2. #52
    bkkmadness
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    Sorry Scamp, didn't know he was your real brother I just thought he was part of the crew my nigga.




















    Actually I did kind of guess he was, but wanted to use the line. I will accept the red like a man.

  3. #53
    たのむよ。
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    You have been pardoned... run along now.

  4. #54
    anonymous ant
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    Now, immediately you should be noticing one startling exception to the list of 6 - your loved one (i.e. husband/wife)! The fact is, your spouse is a statutory heir, but as class 7! In other words, if any member of class 1-6 is surviving, spouse only gets a proportionate share:


    1. at the same % share as each surviving child
    2. 50%
    3. 50%
    4. 75%
    5. 75%
    6. 75%


    ONLY if NO class 1-6 heir exists, will the spouse get 100% of the estate- so those of you with assets in your wife's names, without a will, better start putting pen to paper as you read this. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED




    this is very interesting, and i do not dispute the information or the source, but i have been advised differently by three different legal entities (thai attorneys) and they seem to be of the opinion that:
    the spouse is entitled to the first 50%
    the remaining 50 percent is then split between the children, the mother and the spouse again , so in my case, 50percent for me, 12.5percent for each of my two children, 12.5 percent to her mother and another 12.5 percent to me, totalling 62.5percent for the spouse.
    we will be going to court on these grounds, since the father laid claim to the land and managed to get her land transferred to his name under false pretences after her death.
    i am told by all the thais that i speak to that the asset split happens in this way.i.e. this is the way it happens in thailand.
    can anybody please clear up the confusion?

  5. #55
    Thailand Expat
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    ^it's possible. Dying without a will means the division of the assets is subject to the court's discretion. Usually this means that a blood relative, of which a child is the highest order, has a stronger call than a non-blood relative - such as a spouse. This is even more so if the marriage has not been registered at the amphur.

    The above split you quote is as prescribed by the Civil and Commercial Code, but again it is subject to court discretion, so should not be taken as outright correct. It is one of the dangers of dying without a will that your assets will be subject to court discretion - and my experience of this in Thailand is that this can mean almost anything. Hence the need to ensure it doesn't happen to you.

    Unfortunately most of us believe we will have sufficient time to put our affairs in order before we die, so put the thing off. Experience has shown me that this is rarely the case.

  6. #56
    anonymous ant
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    ^it's possible. Dying without a will means the division of the assets is subject to the court's discretion. Usually this means that a blood relative, of which a child is the highest order, has a stronger call than a non-blood relative - such as a spouse. This is even more so if the marriage has not been registered at the amphur.

    The above split you quote is as prescribed by the Civil and Commercial Code, but again it is subject to court discretion, so should not be taken as outright correct. It is one of the dangers of dying without a will that your assets will be subject to court discretion - and my experience of this in Thailand is that this can mean almost anything. Hence the need to ensure it doesn't happen to you.
    and would the court decision be swayed if the father of the deceased had had himself appointed executor of the estate, then made a fraudulent claim, stating that he was the sole heir, that the deceased had no spouse, nor any children, and had the land transferred into his name after her death?
    he seems to think he has sole right to the land since he had signed it over into her name about fifteen years ago, so that justifies his actions.
    it looks like i will have to go to court on this one, and i dont want to be paying for the lawyer's new car if i am backing a loser. i am not interested in making a claim for my share, but i do insist that the land is transferred into my (the deceased's) children's names.
    the lawyer assures me that a marriage certificate from ANY country is valid in thailand, whether it was registered in the amphoe or not.
    i have a certified translation of the original south african certificate, and he seems to be happy with that.
    sorry to be a pain in the butt, but i do not want to be setting myself up to be taken for a ride by the lawyer as well............
    Last edited by Marmite the Dog; 07-04-2008 at 01:31 PM. Reason: sorted out the quote

  7. #57
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    DIY wills and POA

    After inquiring about obtaining a POA for me to represent my 89yr old father at the US consulate for sworn affidavit of pension for my 89 yr old father who is under my care and at this point, he is barely able to walk, they sent me a list of local Chiang Mai attorneys and i contacted one that I was familiar with and their fee for that simple doccument was 2kbaht. I then asked for their fee for drawing up a simple will naming me as my father's beneficiary of his two Thai bank accounts [currently amounting to 500kbaht].....one page of 'boiler plate' [standard fill in the empty spaces doccument] and they wanted 8kbaht.

    Leading me to ask the following questions....

    1] what are the standard attorney fees for these simple doccuments?? POA & will

    2] can I DIY [do it myself by typing up the forms and getting three witnesses to sign?? Legally??

    3] it was [just casually] mentioned that the POA would be useful for one transaction only and would have to be drawn up on a yearly basis to satisfy
    Thai immigration requirements for retirement visa. Is this true??

    4] and would Eglish only suffice for these doccuments??

    any competent or experienced advise would be greatly appreciated as I feel that attorneys here in LOS are 'sharks' like their counterparts in America.

    Thanks in advance.....

  8. #58
    Member Khun Custard's Avatar
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    Great thread William!

    BUT Will or no Will , if Tilak dies before you - the land and house you paid for in her name can never be yours by Thai law - right??
    What's your thoughts on clauses in Wills to protect non Thai benefactors - liquidation of all property assets on death?

    Seems that the Falang might get caught in the middle and the kids or the inlaws might be the landlord??

    Be nice to your inlaws and kids!!

  9. #59
    I am in Jail
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    I was advised, by a Thai lawyer, to keep minimal assets in Thailand. I am following this advice.

  10. #60
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    My answers are in bold below

    Leading me to ask the following questions....

    1] what are the standard attorney fees for these simple doccuments?? POA & will

    The charges you were quoted were very cheap. For the will alone I would probably have charged in the region of 30K - and that's assuming it was not difficult.

    2] can I DIY [do it myself by typing up the forms and getting three witnesses to sign?? Legally??

    Ordinarily I would say yes, but Thai law has a few technical issues; so I would be reluctant to suggest you do this. Nothing to do with lost fees


    3] it was [just casually] mentioned that the POA would be useful for one transaction only and would have to be drawn up on a yearly basis to satisfy
    Thai immigration requirements for retirement visa. Is this true??

    True to a degree. It all rather depends on what the POA states. More to the point is that a POA can be revoked at any time. Under Thai law, a POA is seen more in the realm of an agent/principal relationship. I think that is the reason why you were advised as you were.


    4] and would Eglish only suffice for these doccuments??

    Yes and no. English is fine, but in the case of a will it's inventive that you will need to involve Thai authorities, so best to have a Thai translation of an English deed/agreement.

    any competent or experienced advise would be greatly appreciated as I feel that attorneys here in LOS are 'sharks' like their counterparts in America.

    I make no comment as to the 'sharks'
    Thanks in advance.....[/quote]

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khun Custard View Post
    Great thread William!

    BUT Will or no Will , if Tilak dies before you - the land and house you paid for in her name can never be yours by Thai law - right??
    What's your thoughts on clauses in Wills to protect non Thai benefactors - liquidation of all property assets on death?

    Seems that the Falang might get caught in the middle and the kids or the inlaws might be the landlord??

    Be nice to your inlaws and kids!!
    The Land Code is very clear that you can be the beneficiary of land. There are conditions attached with retaining the right to own the land. As such, it is likely you would need to sell the land - but you could structure the transaction in a friendly manner.

    My thoughts on the will provisions are clear - make you the beneficiary and then see what happens. You never know, you could get lucky!!

  12. #62
    Member Khun Custard's Avatar
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    Thanks William
    Seems's it's really no more risky than a western divorce settlement

  13. #63
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    Hi William, going back to your article you recommend more than one Will when there are assets outside of Thailand.
    I believe UK Wills must containing a clause revoking all other Wills.
    What to do?

  14. #64
    I am not in Jail AntRobertson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumpyfalang View Post
    Hi William, going back to your article you recommend more than one Will when there are assets outside of Thailand.
    I believe UK Wills must containing a clause revoking all other Wills.
    What to do?
    William hasn't posted on here in a long time, scrumpy.

    However the situation is easily dealt with by keeping the Thai and UK assets seperate (hence the two wills). You're correct that a valid will should rescind all prior ones, however that's only in relation to the assets that you choose to list in it.

    You can have two contemporaneous wills as long as they don't purport to deal with the same assets.

  15. #65
    Thailand Expat
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    ^What he said - and keep in mind that you are dealing with two different jurisdictions and legal systems

  16. #66
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    Many thanks to you both.

  17. #67
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    Assume this all pertains to Thailand assets and not assets back in the mother land. What would be the scenario if assets were maintained outside of Thailand? Will back west for assets back west and a Thai will for Thai assets? Could get confusing if that were not the case.

  18. #68
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    ^Lorenzo - to the extent possible, any Thai will should only include Thai assets. You can include beneficiaries that are outside Thailand, but the assets should be in Thailand.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Another of my articles looking at Thai law issues for you to look at and flame!


    Wills and Estate Planning - Thailand

    * Note: the following is intend only to provide the reader with an overview of the issues that need to be considered when looking at wills and estate planning in Thailand; it is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, nor is it intended to constitute legal advice. In the event that you are contemplating writing a will (or putting your affairs in order) in Thailand, it is strongly recommended that you seek the advice of a reputable lawyer in Thailand.


    The following is a brief article about a a topic many of us avoid thinking about until it's too late - our death. However, as my dear old Mother used to say, "there are two things certain in life William, taxes and death. Avoid paying the first to make sure you have something to leave when you face the second." No truer words spoken, and you can never set about putting your affairs in order young enough - especially with the way we drive and live our lives here in Thailand! So, what are the issues we need to be thinking about?


    Inheritance tax - and the problems its causes
    Without doubt, one of the greatest aspects of living and having assets and families in Thailand is that our beneficiaries are not (currently) subject to inheritance tax. The downside here, the Thai legal system is very simple when it comes to estate planning - there are no complex estate trust mechanisms in place. Indeed, in part because there is no inheritance tax, the Thai legal system doesn't even recognise the legal concept of a trust - nor does it recognise the concept of a "beneficial" owner in equity. Simply put, Thai law only recognises legal owners of property. One caveat here would be that Thai law does recognise the concept of a legal "guardian", which could be seen as a very embolic form of trust relationship.


    Types of probate
    In short, Thai law recognises two types of probate - intestate and will.


    Section 1620 of the Civil and Commercial Code
    "Where a person dies without having made a will, or if having made a will, his will has no effect, the whole of his estate shall be distributed among his statutory heirs according to law.

    Where a person dies having made a will which disposes of or has effect for a part only of his estate, the part which has not been disposed of or is not affected by the will shall be distributed among his statutory heirs according to law."


    - the intestate probate


    Section 1646 of the CCC
    "Any person may, in contemplation of death, make a declaration of intention by will concerning dispositions as to his property or other matters which shall take effect according to law after his death."


    - the will probate.


    How to make a will in Thailand
    In order to constitute a binding and lawful will under Thai law, you will needs to be made in compliance with Title III: Wills; Chapter II: Forms of Will, of the CCC. In short, bullet-point form, this means you will needs to be:


    * made by someone over the age of 15 (Section 1703);
    * may be made in writing, dated at the time of making the will and signed by you and at least 2 witnesses (Section 1656)
    * may be made by an holograph document (Section 1657)
    * may be made by public document (Section 1658)
    * may be made by a secret document (Section 1660); provided that the document: is (a) signed by you; (b) be a closed document with your signature across the place of closure; (c) the closed document must be closed in front of the Kromakarn Amphoe ("KA") with at least 2 witnesses, with a declaration that it is your last will and testament; (d) the document must be signed by the KA and you and the witnesses and the KA must note on the cover of the document that it is your last will and testament declaration along with the date it was submitted
    * may be made orally, if exceptional circumstances such as imminent danger of death, during an epidemic or war, the person is prevented from making a will in any of the above prescribed forms (Section 1663), but such oral will will only be valid for a period of 1 month if you do not die within that time frame subsequent of making it (Section 1664)

    - it should be noted that a witness to a will cannot also be a beneficiary thereunder (Section 1653).


    Thai nationals living overseas
    Insofar as they wish to devolve assets held in Thailand, Thai nationals overseas may execute their will in the form prescribed by the law of the country in which they reside or under Thai law; but when made in accordance with Thai law, the role of the KA is taken by the Thai embassy or consult or any competent authority for authenticating a record of public statement.


    Foreign assets / Thai assets
    The division of foreign assets versus Thai assets is an interesting one. On the one hand, there is nothing stopping you including Thai assets in a foreign will, nor foreign assets in a Thai will. Practically speaking however, and especially so if you live in a country that has inheritance tax, estate planning will put you in direct conflict with Thai law and will, thus, likely nullify your wishes if you wish to probate such assets here.

    For this reason, good practice guidelines are such that you separate your assets into those assets you have in Thailand and those you have elsewhere, with wills drawn up on how to devolve these assets in the best manner possible pursuant to the local rules where the assets are held.


    Intestate
    In a worst case scenario, you die without having left a will, what happens? The answer is that your estate is split up according to the provisions of the CCC - in particular Book VI: Succession; Title II: Statutory Right of Inheritance. In fairness, in trying to be equitable to all, the provisos here are a mess, but essentially you have 6 classes of heir, with varying importance, as follows:


    1. direct descendents (also known as "issue", and "children")
    2. parents
    3. brothers and sisters of "full" blood
    4. brothers and sisters of "half" blood
    5. grandparent
    6. uncles and aunts


    Now, immediately you should be noticing one startling exception to the list of 6 - your loved one (i.e. husband/wife)! The fact is, your spouse is a statutory heir, but as class 7! In other words, if any member of class 1-6 is surviving, spouse only gets a proportionate share:


    1. at the same % share as each surviving child
    2. 50%
    3. 50%
    4. 75%
    5. 75%
    6. 75%


    ONLY if NO class 1-6 heir exists, will the spouse get 100% of the estate- so those of you with assets in your wife's names, without a will, better start putting pen to paper as you read this. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED


    What happens if I die owing money?
    If you owe money on your death, your creditors can make a claim against your estate, but only for an amount equal to the property value being transferred/devolved. In other words, if you have nought when you die, and your estate has nought when you die, your creditors have nought when you die! Then again, so do your dependents/beneficiaries (if any).


    The concept of a "living will" in Thailand
    The concept of living wills is interesting in Thailand. The fact is, the CCC has no specific provisions relating to living wills. Wills only become effective - as a declaration of intent - on your death. Thus they're useless here.

    As a contractual document, it is extremely likely that a living will would not be enforced in Thailand on the grounds that it would be "against public morals". Unfortunately, Thai law has no definition of what constitutes "Thai morals" and the Thai courts have never defined it, just calling it "Thai morals".


    So, if you want to write a living will in Thailand - feel free to do so, nothing stopping you from doing so, but do so in the knowledge that, as with most things here, you wishes will likely be completely ignored and there will not be a damn thing you can do about it!


    Finally
    In the words of one Dr. Spock, I do hope you all "live long and prosper". However, make sure you see a good lawyer in Thailand a long the way and get your affairs in order. After all, if you are surviving spouse, it could mean the difference between be out on your arse and having a roof over you head!


    Copyright ownership of this article belongs to William Jarvis. You are free to copy this article at liberty and you are also free to quote from this article in full. In either case you are asked, as a matter of courtesy, to make reference to the author as being just that. To this end, while not being particularly fussy, the author views the act of passing off as being a particularly repugnant act done by those too stupid to work things out for themselves. Please respect my views on that its not asking a lot!

    If you have any questions relating to this article, please feel free to PM me or email me. I cannot promise that Ill be able to answer your questions, but Ill do my best.
    Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a Kromakarn Amphoe, and where do I find him/her?

  20. #70
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    Confused on Intestate Succession

    Hi All,

    Got an Intestate Succession Q. from a European son whose Father passed away not-residing in Thailand but with a property in the country. Confused as to what the succession rules are. Biggest one is whether or not the surviving spouse is entitled to 50% of all the assets immediately before the rest of the estate is divided between statutory heirs...

    Any help would be massively appreciated.

    Tom

  21. #71
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    I want to make a simple Will which states, " Lek " the Bar girl is entitled to my worldly possessions if I get run over by a Tuk Tuk.

    It's the " Handbag " actually, I want to make sure she can get to my cash that's sitting in " Bangkok Bank."

    I've told her to rip it all out using my Bank Card but she is a tad scared that the Filth may bang her up for accessing my account when it ain't really hers.

    I see her point so I'm gona make a proper Will using a Thai Lawyer.

    No kids, No house, no nothing complicated. Just making it legal so she can access my Bank.

    Do not want my Buks going to the Bank Manager.

    So around about, what would I be lookin at paying these vultures. ?


    And No, I ain't putting her name on my account.
    Stroller is a Yerman faggot.

  22. #72
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    ^I paid 10k Baht for my latest local Will a few months back. It's quite basic and is in place mainly to ensure Mrs Worx (who's actually only my de-facto) would have legal access to money in my Thai bank accounts. Your Missus's worries about breaking the law if you kicked the bucket and she used your ATM card to access your local money are well warrented, for her to do so would be illegal.

  23. #73
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    ^
    Thanks very much mate,

    Your situation is exactly the same as mine.

    10 K baht is fokin expensive, that's $ 400 AUD.

    I was bitchin about paying $300 in Perth.

    Whatever Huh.

    Anyway,

    I'm onto a Lawyer here regards this issue so I've got something to go of.

    Thanks again.

  24. #74
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    ^Most welcome. Something else possibly worth thinking about is your partners immediate access to money, even with a Will in place she won't be able to get at the money left to her in your bank account for a while. In my case that's a problem, Mrs Worx would need instant access to funds for my funeral and her immediate financial well being. I get around this by keeping a quantity of gold in a place she can access that could be converted to cash in 5 minutes.

    It's a fairly macabre topic but we have to be realistic and have plans in place, more so as we get older. I've seen guys here pass away unexpectedly with nothing in place and it's a complete nightmare, you do NOT want your partner and kids (in many cases) to have to go thru courts to get access to assets you wanted her/them to have in the first place.

  25. #75
    Thailand Expat terry57's Avatar
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    ^
    Yes I agree totally, one must have ones shit sorted.

    I have a Safe at home which contains a heap of Cash plus all my important stuff like Bank books, Passport and such.

    If I kick off she can call on my mate. He has my spare Safe key and will come over and Pop it open for her.

    I've tuned her into taking it all down to Superich, covert it to Baht and smash it in her Bank account.

    It's the Money in my Bank I need to get squared away, she needs to be able to get it.

    I want to see my Handbag set up if I Kick.

    She's been a great girl.

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