Arizona's New Illegal Alien Trespass Law

**dotcom** · 18-05-2010, 09:22 PM

Obama is legislating from the White House.

Holder is road kill.

**Norton** · 18-05-2010, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by slackula

This was America. Citizens are assumed to be peaceful, law abiding citizens until shown otherwise. Probable cause is required right to snoop further into their lives?

Sorry for the wee edit but the state of fear instilled in it's citizens, laws that have been passed to counter the perceived fear and America no longer represents the America it should be.

A few months ago my two sons both decided it would be fun to drive from Phoenix, AZ to Las Cruces, NM to pick up my youngest sons wife who was attending a Hewlett Packard sales meeting. They were cruising along Interstate 10 just around the AZ/NM border about 100 miles from the Mexican border when they arrived at a police roadblock. They were stopped and asked if they were American citizens. Both answered yes and were waved on their way.

After picking up the wife and heading back to Phoenix, they again were stopped at nearly the same spot and asked if they were all American citizens. Both boys and the wife answered yes but this time the cops asked for ID. All produced their drivers licenses. Cop looked at the licenses and asked them to step out of the car. He then asked if they would open the trunk. Rather than make a fuss, they did. Son told me all the while the cop had his hand poised over his sidearm. Cop took another long look at the drivers licenses asked where they were going and where they had come from then waved them on their way.

Anyone care to make a wild guess as to the difference between the two very different experiences at the roadblock?

**larvidchr** · 18-05-2010, 11:34 PM

^

If you are a normal citizen in compliance with laws and regulations neither of the episodes should raise your pulse one iota, you should not confuse the Police Officers security procedures with aggression, he holds his hand on his sidearm because- all to often have Police Officers to complacent been shot at routine stops, all hell can break lose in a split second, this is the working environment the American society give their "Peace" Officers.

Instead nice people should be pleased to comply quickly friendly and with no fuss, this way they know they assist their own Police the best way possible in doing their job protecting them and their loved ones.

Let me just make this point, in the following I am in no way referring to Nortons family and the specific event in Nortons post.

In general people react very differently to ID control depending on the circumstance, a lot of people have a negative sense when stopped by police no matter if they have done anything wrong or not, I do not know that many who handles that situation completely unaffected, it's more like "f... what have I done" searching their mind for any infraction they might just have committed ect. this way a police check for great many people is a little tense, and many resent that it makes them feel uncomfortable.

But in the airport, on the way on holiday in high spirit, no one thinks twice about much more stringent ID checks, being scanned, watched and scrutinized by hidden security cams, and with armed Agents in civilian clothes, as well as armed uniformed Officers ready to shoot at a split seconds notice. Still most do not walk away with neuroses and paranoia from their charter flight check in, and later feel resentment towards the staff.

IMO this is all very much dependent on your mindset and attitude, as in it is up to you, whether you let a routine check bother you. Alternatively you could be happy seeing the police doing their job protecting you and society, and thank him for it before getting into your car and continue on your way.

**Norton** · 18-05-2010, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Let me just make this point, in the following I am in no way referring to Nortons family and the specific event in Nortons post.

All are very polite when addressing police but care to answer the question I posed.

Originally Posted by Norton

Anyone care to make a wild guess as to the difference between the two very different experiences at the roadblock?

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

If you are a normal citizen in compliance with laws and regulations neither of the episodes should raise your pulse one iota

Why shouldn't my pulse be raised one iota? I've done nothing wrong. Just driving down a road. In the America I was raised in the cops had no right to stop me without probably cause but the police decide I need to be stopped, questioned and searched. Might be acceptable in Europe and is now acceptable in the US but it doesn't make it right.

**larvidchr** · 19-05-2010, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by larvidchr

Let me just make this point, in the following I am in no way referring to Nortons family and the specific event in Nortons post.

All are very polite when addressing police but care to answer the question I posed.

Originally Posted by Norton

Anyone care to make a wild guess as to the difference between the two very different experiences at the roadblock?

I did the best I know how by generalizing, without referring to the specific situation not wanting to make wrong or faulty assumptions about your family whom I do not know, but Im sure are lovely people who always behave appropriately, sorry if it is not good enough

**larvidchr** · 19-05-2010, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by larvidchr

If you are a normal citizen in compliance with laws and regulations neither of the episodes should raise your pulse one iota

Why shouldn't my pulse be raised one iota? I've done nothing wrong. Just driving down a road. In the America I was raised in the cops had no right to stop me without probably cause but the police decide I need to be stopped, questioned and searched. Might be acceptable in Europe and is now acceptable in the US but it doesn't make it right.

I just do not agree, times change and so do circumstances and the necessary measures adapting to the changing environment, I think it is us that sometimes fail to evolve with time and refuse to accept that development in society in some areas are negative, and no longer like in the good old days.

And the older we get the worse it gets

**Muadib** · 19-05-2010, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by larvidchr

If you are a normal citizen in compliance with laws and regulations neither of the episodes should raise your pulse one iota

Why shouldn't my pulse be raised one iota? I've done nothing wrong. Just driving down a road. In the America I was raised in the cops had no right to stop me without probably cause but the police decide I need to be stopped, questioned and searched. Might be acceptable in Europe and is now acceptable in the US but it doesn't make it right.

It must have been a while since you lived in the US Norts...

Road blocks & check points are run of the mill these days... Often placed in high-traffic areas in order to catch drunk drivers, but when you cast a wide net you never know what you are going to catch...

I have no problem providing my ID to law enforcement when asked... After all, I have nothing to hide...

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

sorry if it is not good enough

Nawh was just fine. Nothing to do with my family.

BTW, my daughter in law is Mexican. Comes from a family who lived in California before it was a state. Sons are both big, strapping all American white boys.

Point here is there is no way the cops can claim there will or is no "profiling" as it relates to the Arizona law. Two white guys are waved through with no questions asked.

Same two white guys with a Mexican women and the whole procedure changes.

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by larvidchr

I just do not agree, times change and so do circumstances and the necessary measures adapting to the changing environment

What has changed in Arizona to warrant the new law?

We're being told it's to protect the good citizens of Arizona from criminal illegal aliens. Does not compute.

Violent crime rates per capita are down from a peak of 713/100,000 in 1993 to 447/100,000 now.

**phomsanuk** · 19-05-2010, 12:41 AM

I donno not being a literate lawyer, ask the Attorney Generl whenever he gets around to reading it

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Muadib

Road blocks & check points are run of the mill these days

Yes I know. Sad innit.

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by phomsanuk

I donno not being a literate lawyer

You donno what?

**dotcom** · 19-05-2010, 12:59 AM

According to your logic Norton the cops have no right to erect rodblocks to check for anything.

Although we know they do it in cities on a Friday night looking for drunk drivers.

**Jet Gorgon** · 19-05-2010, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

Anyone care to make a wild guess as to the difference between the two very different experiences at the roadblock?

later...

Originally Posted by Norton

BTW, my daughter in law is Mexican.

Awww, I had my hand up, you ignored me and then answered your own Q.

Actually, I was gonna say that she was Thai or Asian.

It's possible her addition to the group raised a flag, but I know from experience that sometimes I'm checked, sometimes not, and I've been with the same people or alone. It's the cops right to ask, especially if there is a road block. I'm surprised the lefties don't demand a ban on road blocks.
...
So, now that AG Holder was forced to confess that he hasn't read the AZ law (but he did glance at it) before condemning it, Homeland chief (and ex-AZ guv) Napolitano just confessed that she ain't read the bill either. C'mon, let's do 3 for 3, Prez Obama, have you read AZ law 1070? It's only 16 pages and four of those are reference pages.

What a laughingstock. Nobody read the stimulus bill, nobody read the healthcare bill; well should we forgive them because they were both thousands of pages long? But a 10-pager?

How can these people in high office pass judgment on something they HAVE NOT READ?

And what is it with the state official apologizing to the Chinese for possible human rights abuses in AZ? WTF?

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano admitted Monday that she has not read the controversial Arizona [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]immigration [COLOR=blue ! important]law[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] even though she's gone on television to criticize it, and continued to assert that it was "bad law enforcement law."

FOXNews.com - Napolitano Admits She Hasn't Read Arizona Immigration Law in 'Detail'

!

**FailSafe** · 19-05-2010, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by dotcom

According to your logic Norton the cops have no right to erect rodblocks to check for anything.

Although we know they do it in cities on a Friday night looking for drunk drivers.

You realize of course that the supreme court has already ruled those stops legal (even though the decision was close and some of the justices feel that those stops are violations of the constitution that should not be allowed):

The Michigan Supreme Court found sobriety checkpoints to be a violation of the Fourth Amendment. However, in a split decision, the U.S. Supreme Court reversed the Michigan court. Although acknowledging that such roadblocks violate a fundamental constitutional right, Chief Justice Rehnquist argued that they are necessary in order to reduce drunk driving. That is, he argued that the end justifies the means. Attorney and law professor Lawrence Taylor refers to this as “the DUI exception to the Constitution.”

Chief Justice Rehnquist had argued that violating individual constitutional rights was justified because sobriety roadblocks were effective and necessary. But dissenting Justice Stevens pointed out that "the findings of the trial court, based on an extensive record and affirmed by the Michigan Court of Appeals, indicate that the net effect of sobriety checkpoints on traffic safety is infinitesimal and possibly negative." And even if roadblocks were effective, the fact that they work wouldn’t justify violating individuals’ constitutional rights, justices argued.

DWI/DUI Sobriety Road Blocks or Checkpoints

This is at least an issue that is enforced at a state level to begin with- now we're talking about granting state-level police powers to enforce a federal law (immigration)- according to the constitution, states cannot create legislation re: federal issues, and this is most likely why the AZ law will not be upheld.

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by dotcom

According to your logic Norton the cops have no right to erect rodblocks to check for anything.

I have no problem with cops putting up roadblocks when conducting an operation to apprehend a violent criminal or the like.

My objection is allowing police to stop any citizen "suspected" of being a law breaker and questioning them. When laws are passed to legitimize this type of police activity we move toward a nation where any citizen can be stopped with the demand "papers please".

I am far from a law enforcement hater. I was one, sort of, many years ago. The world is full of some nasty folk and law enforcement is essential in apprehending them. But, folks should not be subjected to any police action unless the police have good reason, aka probable cause, to detain or question someone.

Law enforcement in Arizona has been doing a good job in reducing the crime rate in Arizona over the last several years so enacting the law in question is unnecessary and only serves to further erode the rights of citizens.

Illegal immigration is a problem. A big and complex problem that will not be solved or mitigated by the folly of building walls or with the enactment of the AZ Immigration Law.

**Jet Gorgon** · 19-05-2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Norton

I have no problem with cops putting up roadblocks when conducting an operation to apprehend a violent criminal or the like.

Whaaat? If you have nothing hide, what's the prob? There are always roadblocks for drunk driving checks, no?

Originally Posted by Norton

Illegal immigration is a problem. A big and complex problem that will not be solved or mitigated by the folly of building walls or with the enactment of the AZ Immigration Law.

"The folly of building walls"? Should they just do a libbie and tell Mexicans not to cross? What's wrong with AZ's law, which just underscores Fed law, but erm. the feds ain't doing anything while AZ suffers.

**FailSafe** · 19-05-2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

What's wrong with AZ's law, which just underscores Fed law, but erm. the feds ain't doing anything while AZ suffers.

The problem is that it's counter to the constitution (see separation of state and federal jurisdiction)- states cannot legislate re: a federal issue.

This is what you had to say recently re: Elena Kagan- you can't have it both ways:

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Someone who follows the Constitution is fine by me. I don't give a toss either about their human aspects other than that they follow the Constitutional law.

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

You realize of course that the supreme court has already ruled those stops legal (even though the decision was close and some of the justices feel that those stops are violations of the constitution that should not be allowed)

I am indeed but strongly disagree with the decision. I also believe the Patriot act even as modified in 2006 to make it "constitutional" remains unconstitutional and needs to be challenged in the USSC. I agree with the USSC ruling in Roe vs Wade but others have strong opposing views.

America cannot allow itself to infringe on the rights of individual freedom and privacy to "ensure the safety of it's citizens" no matter what the stated "threat" may be.

**FailSafe** · 19-05-2010, 11:50 AM

^^^

Exactly- as Ben Franklin said:

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."

**Norton** · 19-05-2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

If you have nothing hide, what's the prob?

Hear this preposterous statement all the time. Constitutionally irrelevant as it relates to probable cause.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

"The folly of building walls"?

As history points out, building at great expense, walls to keep out a determined group are indeed an exercise in futility. If one wants in bad enough they will simply find a way to get around the wall. The Great Wall and China or the Maginot Line a but two examples.

Walls when coupled with constant police surveillance are quite effective keeping people in, however.

**AntRobertson** · 19-05-2010, 01:20 PM

It bemuses how those on the conservative/right side of the equation are always banging on about less/smaller Govt. yet are usually the first to jump on the bandwagon when it comes to something like this, further Govt. intrusion into their lives and erosion and abrogation of their rights. This particular example would even be enforced by the socially-funded Police... Look out Marxist state here we come!

The same applies in my mind to the death penalty dichotomy; the single biggest action of a Govt. over its citizens that there can be and yet it's often supported by the right.

In fact since 9/11 it seems that there are no shortage of willing lemmings only to ready, willing and able to hand over their rights every time the Muslim boogeyman is invoked and some arrow moved into the red-zone on a Fox news chart.

**barbaro** · 19-05-2010, 02:15 PM

As for the illegals in AZ, as you all know I have family in Southern Arizona.

Every 3 months US citizens go out to the Sonoran desert to pick up thousands - yes thousands of pieces of garbage left behind by the Mexican illegals.

**Jet Gorgon** · 19-05-2010, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by barbaro

As for the illegals in AZ, as you all know I have family in Southern Arizona.

Every 3 months US citizens go out to the Sonoran desert to pick up thousands - yes thousands of pieces of garbage left behind by the Mexican illegals.

A friend sent me an e-mail with several photos of this. I found a few on the Net:

http://thereaganwing.wordpress.com/2...onoran-desert/

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