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  1. #1
    Thailand Expat Texpat's Avatar
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    The paradox of Muslim weakness

    By Sadanand Dhume
    International Herald Tribune
    June 3, 2008

    WASHINGTON --
    In the years since 9/11 two broad narratives have emerged in the West to explain the nature of the so-called war on terror.

    On the right it has become commonplace to equate Islamism - the ideology that seeks to order 21st century societies by the medieval norms enshrined in Islamic Shariah law - with a long line of totalitarian threats to liberal democracy. Victor Davis Hanson of the Hoover Institution, for instance, calls it a "foul apparition that has succeeded fascism, Nazism, and communism as the world's next bane."

    The left sees the issue as a product of poverty or flawed policies toward the Middle East. Robert Fisk of The Independent blames Islamist terrorism on "political situations and injustice in various parts of the world."

    Both views are flawed. Conservatives rightly emphasize the power of Islamism as an idea and the global ambitions of its adherents, but fail to acknowledge the movement's lack of military and intellectual heft, or its limited global appeal compared to communism in its heyday. Liberals correctly point out that talk of a Muslim takeover of Europe is delusional, or at the very least premature. But they fail to see that in the Muslim-majority societies of Asia and the Middle East Islamism remains a powerful and growing force. Better organized, better motivated, backed by the threat of violence and protected by cultural norms that prohibit any criticism of Islam, Islamists are able to alter the nature of society even where they don't hold formal power.

    Unless beleaguered moderates from Iraq to Indonesia can find a way to broaden the war of ideas they'll continue to lose ground to a tenacious movement that believes it has both God and history on its side.

    At first glance the familiar comparison of the war on terror with the Cold War appears reasonable enough. Like communists, Islamists value the group over the individual, justify the use of violence for political ends and nurture an almost visceral antipathy to a world order dominated by wealthy liberal democracies. The threat within - once symbolized by Western communist parties and their sympathizers - is now represented by such Islamist-friendly groups as the Council on American-Islamic Relations and the Muslim Council of Britain. Moreover, the argument goes, whereas communist and capitalist proxies skirmished in such remote corners as Angola and Afghanistan, Islamists have brought their battle to the heart of the West. Suddenly New York, London and Madrid are as much battlegrounds as Beirut and Baghdad.

    Plausible though it appears, this formulation exaggerates Islamist strength and underestimates the effectiveness of the West's institutions and the resilience of its societies. True, Islamist intimidation has curbed free speech in some places: The Dutch and the Danes must tread lightly when criticizing Islam or contemplate a life of bodyguards and safe houses. But it has also spawned a generation of bold Muslim thinkers in the West - Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji and Asra Nomani to name just three - who are willing to ask the uncomfortable questions that tend not to be asked in their countries of origin.

    Moreover, Islamism, steeped in a joyless literal reading of Islam, cannot hope to extend its appeal in the West beyond a minority of a minority - those Muslims drawn to its stark utopian vision. Osama bin Laden's visage will never grace nearly as many T-shirts as Che Guevara's.

    The weakness of Islamists in the West is matched by the backwardness of the Muslim world. In its prime the Soviet Union could reasonably claim to match the United States in such varied fields as Olympic sports, aviation technology and space exploration. Strip away the accident of oil wealth from Muslim lands and we're left with societies that cumulatively boast fewer achievements than a single mid-sized Asian power, albeit an exceptional one, such as Korea.

    This reality makes it easy to dismiss the Islamist threat, as do most Western liberals, or to shrink its dimensions to the activities of a handful of terrorist groups - Al Qaeda or Southeast Asia's Jemaah Islamiyah. Yet, paradoxically, it's precisely the sorry state of Muslim societies that makes Islamism such a formidable force.

    Reminded daily that they are recipients of God's final revelation, a large minority of Muslims - perhaps between 10 and 15 percent - embrace the Islamist idea that the cause of their backwardness lies not in a failure to embrace modernity but in a failure to fully embrace their faith. Many more, while not Islamists themselves, are broadly sympathetic to a world view that is steeped in conspiracy theories and compulsively blames Muslim failures on outsiders. Jews and Americans are favorite bogeymen.

    Of course, neither religious obscurantism nor a lack of self-criticism is a Muslim monopoly. India has its Hindu fundamentalists who riot against Muslims; America its Christians waging war against Darwin in the classroom.

    Nonetheless the danger to liberal democracy that Islamists pose in Muslim countries is of an entirely different order.

    Islamists - although almost always a minority - tend to be better motivated and better organized than their opponents. Weak or sympathetic courts and police officials allow them to use violence or the threat of violence to control the public square. Cultural norms - even in relatively open countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia - put any public criticism of Islam out of bounds.

    Even where they have not claimed formal power Islamists have led their societies in an illiberal direction. In Egypt, female university students come under greater pressure to wear the head scarf today than they did a generation ago. In parts of Pakistan, Islamists have declared war on music and soap operas. In Indonesia Christians and heterodox Muslims often find their churches and mosques under siege.

    In each of these countries those who reject the Islamist message - who believe that gender equity, freedom of speech and freedom of conscience are universal values and not merely Western ones - must do so with one hand tied behind their backs.

    So while talk of Islam's inroads in Washington, London and Paris may indeed be overblown, the special conditions in the Muslim world ensure that the threat to liberal democracy in Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur and Islamabad is not about to disappear any time soon.

    Sadanand Dhume is the author of "My Friend the Fanatic: Travels with an Indonesian Islamist," about the rise of radicalism in the world's most populous Muslim country. Reprinted with permission from YaleGlobal.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/03/opinion/edhume.php?page=1

    ***

    Interesting, well-balanced article. Puts the Islamist factor into perspective.

  2. #2
    Thailand Expat lom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texpat
    Interesting, well-balanced article. Puts the Islamist factor into perspective.
    Certainly does.
    It was a relief to read it, I'm less scared of them now.

  3. #3
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    Yes, well balanced but not so much a relief for me.

    The present state of affairs has been building up for, perhaps, hundreds of years and there is no single recent cause. It certainly didn't begin with attacks from one side or another during this century. At the beginning of the '90's whilst working in Madrid, I was asked to go to the British Council offices. There I was warned that British and US businesses and business people were being watched by 'North African people' and I should take care of myself, my family and my employees. A parked car outside in the street was pointed out to me from a window and there was such a guy looking back at me. Intelligence gathering, I suppose.

    Perhaps the fanatics are relatively few in number at the moment but, while other muslims are prepared not to report them to the authorities or the authorities pander to their demands for favoured treatment, they will continue to grow in strength.

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    Thailand Expat stroller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    A parked car outside in the street was pointed out to me from a window and there was such a guy looking back at me. Intelligence gathering, I suppose.
    Yes, they are devious, these Muslims, aren't they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stroller View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    A parked car outside in the street was pointed out to me from a window and there was such a guy looking back at me. Intelligence gathering, I suppose.
    Yes, they are devious, these Muslims, aren't they?

    I don't know about that - just showing that trouble was brewing for quite a while, enough for UK and US governments to warn expats. 18 years ago.

  6. #6
    Not again!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    Perhaps the fanatics are relatively few in number at the moment but, while other muslims are prepared not to report them to the authorities
    How would an average Muslim know who the fanatics are? Will green you once you answer this question! In the mean time have a red.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    Perhaps the fanatics are relatively few in number at the moment but, while other muslims are prepared not to report them to the authorities
    How would an average Muslim know who the fanatics are? Will green you once you answer this question! In the mean time have a red.
    Perhaps the way they talk or behave. Indoctrination is likely to lead to some changes that family and close friends notice.

    Why the red? Is it because you don't agree with me? Seems a bit extreme.

  8. #8
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    Not an extreme. It's just that I am sick n tired of bigots like Mr Earl. Will make up for the red soon. Your answer to me question is still vague.
    Perhaps the way they talk or behave.
    How do they talk and behave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    How would an average Muslim know who the fanatics are?
    The moment they empathize with Palestinian suicide bombers they become fanatics.

  10. #10
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    .... and how would an average Muslim find out who's empathising with the suicide bombers?

    What's your opinion about people, like yourself, who empathise with blood sucking, child eating IDF?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    Not an extreme. It's just that I am sick n tired of bigots like Mr Earl. Will make up for the red soon. Your answer to me question is still vague.
    Perhaps the way they talk or behave.
    How do they talk and behave?
    Well, if its bigotry that's bugging you, I'm not a bigot.

    I'm living and working at present in a muslim country under shiria law and have had numerous conversations with muslims from all over the Middle East (and the UK for that matter) about what's going on in their world. I was brought up in the UK and my permanent home is in Thailand. I was in the London Underground at 8.50am on 7 July 2005 near to Liverpool Street Station. I may not have first hand experience of everything on which I have a view but I'm not alone in that. I try to see more than one side of a discussion. If I ever achieve perfection or persuade everyone to agree with me I shall become very bored and smothered in greens.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    I may not have first hand experience of everything on which I have a view but I'm not alone in that. I try to see more than one side of a discussion.
    But ya see there is some that just like to hang on the meat tho,, and you have met em on here..

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackgang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Morden
    I may not have first hand experience of everything on which I have a view but I'm not alone in that. I try to see more than one side of a discussion.
    But ya see there is some that just like to hang on the meat tho,, and you have met em on here..
    Not pork, in this instance, I guess.

  14. #14
    Thailand Expat stroller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Earl
    The moment they empathize with Palestinian suicide bombers they become fanatics.
    So, every Muslim who 'emphathises' with Palestinian suicide bombers should be reported to the authorities.

    What about others who also emphathise? Should they also be reported by their respective religious peers?

    Oh, and for what purpose should they be reported, what should the authorities do?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    What's your opinion about people, like yourself, who empathise with blood sucking, child eating IDF?
    You're a low life bottom feeder.

    When did the IDF eat any children ?

    And learn to spell you moron.

  16. #16
    Mea-Culpa
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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi
    How would an average Muslim know who the fanatics are?
    Easy, the fanatics are the ones with a AK47 over the shoulders and a belt of explosives around there waiste, + a T-shirt with a picture of Bin Laden.....

  17. #17
    I don't know barbaro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyTits View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    What's your opinion about people, like yourself, who empathise with blood sucking, child eating IDF?
    You're a low life bottom feeder.

    When did the IDF eat any children ?

    And learn to spell you moron.
    I'm with Macha on this one. The IDF are scumbags.

    The IDF gets way too much slack from the US media, which portrays them as "good guy." Good guys, they are not. They are scum.
    ............

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    .... and how would an average Muslim find out who's empathising with the suicide bombers?
    It is the average Muslim who is duped by his religion to empathize with the Palestinian cause and methodology.

    Quote Originally Posted by macha
    What's your opinion about people, like yourself, who empathise with blood sucking, child eating IDF?
    I don't know where the "child eating" comes from. Care to elaborate?
    It is well known for Palestinians to sacrifice their own children to denigrate jews and Israel.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by stroller View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Earl
    The moment they empathize with Palestinian suicide bombers they become fanatics.
    So, every Muslim who 'emphathises' with Palestinian suicide bombers should be reported to the authorities.

    What about others who also emphathise? Should they also be reported by their respective religious peers?

    Oh, and for what purpose should they be reported, what should the authorities do?
    "Report" to whom???? Who said anything about reporting?
    And who would you report to???
    When the entire Islamic religion has been hijacked by murderous, bloodthirsty fanatics who would care? Salmon Rushdie? I think we already know where his critique of Islam got him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyTits View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by machangezi View Post
    What's your opinion about people, like yourself, who empathise with blood sucking, child eating IDF?
    You're a low life bottom feeder.

    When did the IDF eat any children ?

    And learn to spell you moron.
    I'm with Macha on this one. The IDF are scumbags.

    The IDF gets way too much slack from the US media, which portrays them as "good guy." Good guys, they are not. They are scum.
    Accusing the IDF of baby eating is focking ridiculous without some proof.
    Milky go back to your corner!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Earl
    Accusing the IDF of baby eating is focking ridiculous without some proof. Milky go back to your corner!
    Seems to be a soft spot in Milkies head that didn't harden when it was supposed to and it appears someone accidently stuck a finger in his brain at one time and it kind of gets to him once in awhile, most generally he is a fairly rational guy, but at times he does about fall out of his tree..

  22. #22
    Thailand Expat Texpat's Avatar
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    If he knew who he hated and was consistent about it, it might be tolerable. But in the same thread, sometimes in the same post, he contradicts himself and leaves readers either laughing or redding.

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