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Bugs · 04-07-2008, 10:52 AM

The Associated Press: Obama says Iraq trip could refine his policy

Quote:

Obama says Iraq trip could refine his policy
FARGO, N.D. (AP) — Democrat Barack Obama struggled Thursday to explain how his upcoming trip to Iraq might refine, but not basically alter, his promise to quickly remove U.S. combat troops from the war.
A dustup over war policy — one of the main issues separating the Illinois senator from his Republican opponent, John McCain — overshadowed Obama's town-hall meeting here with veterans to talk about patriotism and his plans to care for them. Republicans pounced on the chance to characterize Obama as altering one of the core policies that drove his candidacy "for the sake of political expedience." He denied equally forcefully that he was shifting positions.
Arriving in Fargo, Obama hastily called a news conference to discuss news of a sixth straight month of nationwide job losses, but the questioning turned to Iraq policy and his impending trip there.
"I am going to do a thorough assessment when I'm there," he said. "I'm sure I'll have more information and continue to refine my policy."

Speaking of the candidate for change, seems Obama might be changing his tune as it relates to Iraq as well. IMHO he created a bit of a problem when early in his campaign he gave a specific timeline (16-18 months) for the removal of combat troops from Iraq. Locking down a firm timeline on an issue like this so early on makes it easy pickin's when the inevitable tweaking takes place.

The red team really took him to task on what some are going so far as calling a flip-flop on Iraq today. I on the other hand am glad to see some refinement on the issue. I applaud him for his commnets (in the morning) in regard to saying that after his pending trip and chance to talk with the folks on the ground that he will "have more information and continue to refine my policy". On the other hand seems he might have been better served had he actually made a trip to Iraq and got the lay of the land prior to outlining an exit timeline in the first place.

I think he might have yet opened himself up to future problems on this issue when in the afternoon he came back out and stuck to his 16-month timeline. Being so adamant about the timeline in the afternoon might come back to bite him later.

Norton · 04-07-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugs

I think he might have yet opened himself up to future problems on this issue when in the afternoon he came back out and stuck to his 16-month timeline. Being so adamant about the timeline in the afternoon might come back to bite him later.

Perhaps so but the 16 month draw down may be achievable if he can get the Iraqi government to agree and adhere to steps needed to get their house in order. Certainly, US relations with Iran will play a major role in stabilizing the Iraqi situation.

Texpat · 04-07-2008, 12:55 PM

I read somewhere this week Iraq has reached satisfactory progress on 15 of 18 points of order necessary prior to assuming full control of their own security. They're having trouble hammering out a satisfactory SOFA, so maybe they're ready to step up and act like they got a pair. Good negotiating tactic regardless of who wins the White House.

Bugs · 04-07-2008, 12:59 PM

Indeed there is a train of thought that goes along the lines of "iraq won't ever be ready until they are forced to be ready". As such putting a firm timetable in place may actually end up being benefical to those ends. However, if forcing a timetable on them does not have the desired effect of getting them to step up to the plate, then things could go tits up pretty quickly.

If will be a fine wire to walk in getting them to believe the US is firm on the timetable, and yet on the other hand not being so firm with it as to allow things to possibly get beyond repair should the Iraqies fail to measure up.

Norton · 04-07-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texpat

I read somewhere this week Iraq has reached satisfactory progress on 15 of 18 points of order necessary prior to assuming full control of their own security.

I read this and may be the same you read. Still some debate in Congress over the degree to which the 15 points are completed but clearly progress has been made.

"Whether the new administration starts pulling troops out of Iraq right away, as Democratic presidential hopeful Barak Obama has promised, or refuses to set a timetable, per Republican John McCain's suggestion, most agree that a functional democracy in Iraq could still be years away because of the complexities of the issues involved and the deeply rooted distrust among the nation's sectarian groups.
"Iraq has the potential to develop into a stable, secure multiethnic, multi-sectarian democracy under the rule of law," Ryan Crocker, U.S. ambassador to Iraq said in April when he last testified before Congress. "Whether it realizes that potential is ultimately up to the Iraqi people.""

The Associated Press: New Iraq report: 15 of 18 benchmarks satisfactory

chinthee · 04-07-2008, 07:06 PM

I've never understood why pundits give candidates such shit about flip-flopping. What exactly is wrong with modifying your position based on better intelligence, reasoning or even political expediency? I think both candidates should be allowed to flip fop around like drunken shrimp.

I have no problems with that, as long as they arrive at the right conclusions.

Boon Mee · 08-07-2008, 09:11 PM

Heh - a partial short-list of BO's Flip-Flops:

Taking union money—was against, now for;
Public financing—was for, now against;
Lifting the Cuba embargo—was for, now against;
Cracking down on illegal immigrant employers—was against, now for;
Telecom immunity in the FISA—was against, now for;
D.C. gun ban—was for, now against;
Taking Big Oil money—says he’s against, but takes money from Big Oil execs;
NAFTA—was against, now for; and
Death penalty—was against, now for.

GETLIBERTY.ORG | The Radical Waffling True-Believing Flip-Flopping Obama

Norton · 08-07-2008, 09:48 PM

These are flip flops:

These are rational changes based on situational changes and political astuteness:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Taking union money—was against, now for; Public financing—was for, now against; Lifting the Cuba embargo—was for, now against; Cracking down on illegal immigrant employers—was against, now for; Telecom immunity in the FISA—was against, now for; D.C. gun ban—was for, now against; Taking Big Oil money—says he’s against, but takes money from Big Oil execs; NAFTA—was against, now for; and Death penalty—was against, now for.

This is....err, OK he's kinda like, hell I don't know!:

Texpat · 10-07-2008, 07:36 PM

Sunlen Miller
ABC News

Barack Obama took a "tough love" message to African American youth, telling that finishing high school is a better route to success in life than an unlikely trip to the NBA or the top of the rap industry.

"You are probably not that good a rapper. Maybe you are the next Lil' Wayne, but probably not, in which case you need to stay in school," Obama, D-Ill., told a cheering crowd, brought to a standing ovation at a town hall meeting in Powder Springs, Georgia.

The presumptive Democratic nominee was speaking about high school drop out rates and the need for people to be committed to working hard in school so they can get a job after school.

Obama said he knows some young men think they can't find a job unless they are a really good basketball player.

"Which most of you brothas are not," Obama, who played basketball in high school, a sport he continues to play to this day, said jokingly. "I know you think you are, but you're not. You are over-rated in your own mind. You will not play in the NBA."

Obama, who will be the first African American presidential nominee of a major party accepts the Democratic nomination on August 28, 2008, in Denver, spoke to a predominantly black audience at the Georgia event.

The candidate regularly voices a "tough love" message in front of all groups –- telling parents to turn off the video games, get off the sofa, and if their child is in trouble in school to "not cuss out the teacher."

The town hall marks Obama's first visit to Georgia -- a state not won by a Democratic presidential candidate since then-Gov. Bill Clinton's win in 1992 -- in the general election campaign. Speculation has also surrounded former Sen. Sam Nunn, D-Ga., a potential Obama vice presidential pick that could help put the Peach State in play.

Obama's visit is part of the campaign's week-long effort to campaign in so-called "red states" that have favored Republicans in recent elections and, presumably, also lean toward his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

Political Radar: Obama Slams Hoop Dreams for High School Diplomas

***

Reminds me of Bill Cosby. Good message, but will it be received?

Boon Mee · 14-07-2008, 03:39 AM

Putting things into perspective -

"John McCain suffered as a POW longer than Barack Obama has been a senator.

In fact, John McCain was a Prisoner of War 13 times longer than Barack Obama was a US senator before he decided to run for President.

From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the US Senate.

In contrast, John McCain has 26 years in Congress, 22 years of military service, and 1,966 days in captivity as a POW in Hanoi"

But, Obama was a community service organizer and he did

go to church.

Thanks to Nobody Says It Better « Sigmund, Carl and Alfred

Milkman · 14-07-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Putting things into perspective -

"John McCain suffered as a POW longer than Barack Obama has been a senator.

In fact, John McCain was a Prisoner of War 13 times longer than Barack Obama was a US senator before he decided to run for President.

From the time Barack Obama was sworn in as a United State Senator, to the time he announced he was forming a Presidential exploratory committee, he logged 143 days of experience in the US Senate.

In contrast, John McCain has 26 years in Congress, 22 years of military service, and 1,966 days in captivity as a POW in Hanoi"

How many voters will consider this relevant enough to vote for McCain over Obama. I don't think "experience" will be an issue, based on what I've seen, read, and heard.

Age, and positions will likely be more of an issue.

McCain's rank in the Navy was fairly low. (No direspect, but he wasn't in a leadership position.)

Bugs · 14-07-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkman

McCain's rank in the Navy was fairly low. (No direspect, but he wasn't in a leadership position.)

Fairly low rank? Not in a leadership position?

About three years after McCain returned from Vietnam he became the commanding officer of the Navy's largest training squadron (VA-174) in Florida, and he retired from the Navy with the rank of Captain.

Sure he never obtained the rank of Admiral but that hardly means he had a fairly low rank (Captain O-6 ain't a fairly low rank IMHO). And sure he was not a front line commander during war time, but I fail to see how one could classify a person that was the CO of the Navy's largest training squadron as not in a leadership position.

Washington Times - Politics, Breaking News, US and World News - "McCain camp: 'Shocked and disappointed'" by Dinan

Quote:

...talk about McCain's postwar executive experience as commander of the Navy's largest aviation squadron, VA-174, a training squadron based at Cecil Field in Florida.

John McCain’s service record

Quote:

After months of treatment and therapy, McCain regained his flight status by late 1974 and became commanding officer of a training squadron stationed in Florida by 1976.
McCain retired from Navy on April 1, 1981 as a captain.

Boon Mee · 17-07-2008, 06:00 PM

Knew there was a reason I don't pick up a copy of Rolling Stone anymore. This Glowbama thing is getting out of hand...

Milkman · 17-07-2008, 10:14 PM

Bugs, I stand corrected on McCain's leadership as a Captain. Boon, the "Rolling Stone." What a farce of a magazine, especially in politics.

As for Obama's priorities, both candidates are muddying the waters, becoming more controlled, tightening the leash on surragates (cheerleaders that go on talk shows to support a candidate) and both are flopping and focusing big-time on the low-info voter.

Boon Mee · 19-07-2008, 01:45 AM

Still more flipping & flopping by you know who...

Moonbattery: Still More Flipping and Flopping

and another: Moonbattery: Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

Milkman · 19-07-2008, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Still more flipping & flopping by you know who...

Moonbattery: Still More Flipping and Flopping

and another: Moonbattery: Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

There is a lot of flip-flopping on both sides, and will continue as the election nears.

Flip-flopping is necesarry. It's part of the campaign (and sometimes even policy).

sabang · 19-07-2008, 02:11 AM

^Yeh, at least Osama doesn't FlipFlop on his policy.
Unlike that bladdy Obama.

Texpat · 19-07-2008, 05:10 AM

On a lighter note:

Joel Stein
Los Angeles Times
July 18, 2008

I believe comedic change is possible. Since the New Yorker dropped a bum joke on its cover this week, comedians have appeared on every news outlet to whine about how hard it is to make fun of Barack Obama. Really? They have an arsenal of jokes to use against a 71-year-old ex-POW cancer survivor and Obama is too touchy a subject?

I'm here to help. I called some comedian friends to compile a guide to making fun of Obama. The consensus is there's not yet one standout attribute to pound away on (McCain is old! Clinton cheats on his wife! Bush is stupid! Al Gore is a robot! John Kerry makes me feel inexplicably sad inside!), but there are areas to explore. If we just work a little harder, and sacrifice a little bit, we can achieve greatness. We are the immature jerks we have been waiting for.

He's a nerd. Yes,

08-07-2008, 09:11 PM	#667 (permalink)
Boon Mee Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 06:47 PM Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,820	Heh - a partial short-list of BO's Flip-Flops: Taking union money—was against, now for; Public financing—was for, now against; Lifting the Cuba embargo—was for, now against; Cracking down on illegal immigrant employers—was against, now for; Telecom immunity in the FISA—was against, now for; D.C. gun ban—was for, now against; Taking Big Oil money—says he’s against, but takes money from Big Oil execs; NAFTA—was against, now for; and Death penalty—was against, now for. GETLIBERTY.ORG \| The Radical Waffling True-Believing Flip-Flopping Obama __________________ ผมเป็นคนบ้านนอก

04-07-2008, 12:55 PM	#663 (permalink)
Texpat ฝรั่งพูดมาก Last Online: Today 09:52 AM Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nong Khai Posts: 9,775	I read somewhere this week Iraq has reached satisfactory progress on 15 of 18 points of order necessary prior to assuming full control of their own security. They're having trouble hammering out a satisfactory SOFA, so maybe they're ready to step up and act like they got a pair. Good negotiating tactic regardless of who wins the White House.

04-07-2008, 12:59 PM	#664 (permalink)
Bugs Yao Last Online: Today 09:00 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: At home Posts: 857	Indeed there is a train of thought that goes along the lines of "iraq won't ever be ready until they are forced to be ready". As such putting a firm timetable in place may actually end up being benefical to those ends. However, if forcing a timetable on them does not have the desired effect of getting them to step up to the plate, then things could go tits up pretty quickly. If will be a fine wire to walk in getting them to believe the US is firm on the timetable, and yet on the other hand not being so firm with it as to allow things to possibly get beyond repair should the Iraqies fail to measure up.

04-07-2008, 07:06 PM	#666 (permalink)
chinthee Sundance is my bff Last Online: 23-09-2008 07:21 AM Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,033	I've never understood why pundits give candidates such shit about flip-flopping. What exactly is wrong with modifying your position based on better intelligence, reasoning or even political expediency? I think both candidates should be allowed to flip fop around like drunken shrimp. I have no problems with that, as long as they arrive at the right conclusions.

10-07-2008, 07:36 PM	#669 (permalink)
Texpat ฝรั่งพูดมาก Last Online: Today 09:52 AM Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Nong Khai Posts: 9,775	Sunlen Miller ABC News Barack Obama took a "tough love" message to African American youth, telling that finishing high school is a better route to success in life than an unlikely trip to the NBA or the top of the rap industry. "You are probably not that good a rapper. Maybe you are the next Lil' Wayne, but probably not, in which case you need to stay in school," Obama, D-Ill., told a cheering crowd, brought to a standing ovation at a town hall meeting in Powder Springs, Georgia. The presumptive Democratic nominee was speaking about high school drop out rates and the need for people to be committed to working hard in school so they can get a job after school. Obama said he knows some young men think they can't find a job unless they are a really good basketball player. "Which most of you brothas are not," Obama, who played basketball in high school, a sport he continues to play to this day, said jokingly. "I know you think you are, but you're not. You are over-rated in your own mind. You will not play in the NBA." Obama, who will be the first African American presidential nominee of a major party accepts the Democratic nomination on August 28, 2008, in Denver, spoke to a predominantly black audience at the Georgia event. The candidate regularly voices a "tough love" message in front of all groups –- telling parents to turn off the video games, get off the sofa, and if their child is in trouble in school to "not cuss out the teacher." The town hall marks Obama's first visit to Georgia -- a state not won by a Democratic presidential candidate since then-Gov. Bill Clinton's win in 1992 -- in the general election campaign. Speculation has also surrounded former Sen. Sam Nunn, D-Ga., a potential Obama vice presidential pick that could help put the Peach State in play. Obama's visit is part of the campaign's week-long effort to campaign in so-called "red states" that have favored Republicans in recent elections and, presumably, also lean toward his Republican rival, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz. Political Radar: Obama Slams Hoop Dreams for High School Diplomas *** Reminds me of Bill Cosby. Good message, but will it be received?

17-07-2008, 06:00 PM	#673 (permalink)
Boon Mee Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 06:47 PM Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,820	Knew there was a reason I don't pick up a copy of Rolling Stone anymore. This Glowbama thing is getting out of hand...

17-07-2008, 10:14 PM	#674 (permalink)
Milkman Gone Off Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: shelf Posts: 9,543	Bugs, I stand corrected on McCain's leadership as a Captain. Boon, the "Rolling Stone." What a farce of a magazine, especially in politics. As for Obama's priorities, both candidates are muddying the waters, becoming more controlled, tightening the leash on surragates (cheerleaders that go on talk shows to support a candidate) and both are flopping and focusing big-time on the low-info voter.

19-07-2008, 01:45 AM	#675 (permalink)
Boon Mee Senior Member Last Online: Yesterday 06:47 PM Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9,820	Still more flipping & flopping by you know who... Moonbattery: Still More Flipping and Flopping and another: Moonbattery: Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

19-07-2008, 02:11 AM	#677 (permalink)
sabang Watching the Wheels Last Online: Today 09:52 AM Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: east of Pattaya Posts: 8,447	^Yeh, at least Osama doesn't FlipFlop on his policy. Unlike that bladdy Obama.