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mad_dog

I think it is simply a case of not putting all your eggs in one basket.

bkkandrew

^^Butterfly, before I turn in detail to Milkman's sensible question, I will address you silly one by noting you have not answered my question in post 276...

bkkandrew

^The question, because I know you have a notoriously short attention span, was do you think that US State debt doesn't matter?

Bugs

I don’t really bother to follow the value of the US money supply but I took a quick look and it seems the US money supply has actually shrunk recently so maybe they have not quite gotten around to cranking up the presses just yet - they better hurry to reach your Sept forcast.

Sharp US money supply contraction points to Wall Street crunch ahead - Telegraph

Quote:

The US money supply has experienced the sharpest contraction in modern history... ...the biggest one-month fall since modern records began in 1959.

As a side note the shrinking money supply ain’t good news either – as this typically means rough times ahead for the market.

As of late there has been very little sign of the dollar loosing value and thus giving the world a hint of the US attempting to inflate the debt away. On the contrary the general trend as of late has been for that the dollar has actually gained against other major currency such as the Euro and the Pound.
RTTNews - Currency Trading, Currency Market Update, Trading Opportunities, US Market Update ....

Quote:

The US currency soared to a new multi-year against the pound and new multi-day highs against the franc and the euro during early Asian deals on Monday.

In regard to repudiation why would they bother now or even after the election? To function the US needs to be able to sell bonds and such. Repudiation of the debt would make it near impossible for them to sell them, and would sink the value of the dollar at the same time. Might as well crank up the presses and pay off the debt that way.

Much of the debt is bonds and such that are dollar denominated. All they have to do to pay them off is print the money. No need to repudiate the debt.

__________________
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion" - Steven Weinberg

Butterfly

Actually a good question,

yes it does matter for the state, not the Federal government. But if you are going that route, what about Corporate Debt ? Municipal ? County ? why stop at the state ?

And in England, what about Council debt ? hey what about Football club debt as a collective burden on the local fan base ?

so what's your point with state debt ? should it be included as total debt for Federal Government even though they didn't create the debt in the first place ? The state is NOT the Federal government, I do hope you are not confusing local government with Federal government.

bkkandrew

^Good, so you accept that State debt is important. Lets go back to the Wiki dispute, which I assume you have now skim-read:

So, the figures you quoted in haste, without reading the background material, actually account for public debt in an entirely different way than the countries you are making comparison with.

Butterfly

Yes it's important for the state, not the Federal government. You need to get familiar yourself with the US system, it's very different from what we are used to as Euros and other nationalities. Also the US banking system is very specific, it's structured in a significant different kind of way than other countries. Since you based all your knowledge on news clips, you wouldn't catch those fundamental differences, but there are there, and they are huge books about it, something I doubt you have read.

That's because you are assuming the US Federal system is the same as everyone else. It's not, so those adjustments might be justified. Most countries public debt are "straightforward" because there is one central government with all the power. This is not true in the US. Local governments have so much power that they could actually be regarded as mini-countries by themselves, much like the constituent countries of the EU.

Now, I see that your failed to answer my question about why stopping at the state debt and not add Municipal debt back into the calculation if we follow your line of thinking ? the truth is that the Federal government didn't write those debts, so why should it be accountable ?

bkkandrew

Again, I have to smile, as, in your haste to make a lame joke about football fans, you have not considered the contagen of liability. If you re-read post 269, you will see that a banking liability, turns into a FDIC liability, which then becomes a Treasury liability.

Butterfly

^ non-sense, not everyone will be defaulting on their debt, and usually the accounts are sold to a stronger bank, so you can take the collective assets of all US banks and match that number with the possible debt defaulting on private loans, that number is perfectly reasonable

again, I note you didn't answer my question and failed to address the issues I have raised when I replied to yours

bkkandrew

^Sublety too difficult for you?

You posed the question:

I answered giving another scenario from a previous post thus:

So the Federal Government didn't write the banking debts, but has become liable.

You do know that, when I refer to the Treasury, this means the Federal Government?

Butterfly

that was my original question, that you carefully avoided to answer,

Another issue I raised that again you carefully avoided, since you love to focus on things that are pointless so you can go in circular mode,

That scenario is about a PRIVATE debt, nothing to do with the collective PUBLIC debt. Once again, you refused to answer "relevant" questions and will rather focus on silly pointless details or imaginary scenario so you can distract the discussion from your blatant mistakes, misconceptions, assumptions and complete misunderstanding.

Back to you clown, let's see what kind of circular argument you are going to come up with now

bkkandrew

Why is this so hard for you to understand? Your basic assertion was flawed. You simply looked up the Wiki table of Government debt, but didn't bother to note that it was innaccurate.

For example, the US debt figure is Federal Debt ONLY, yet for Canada? I quote:

Source:

Talk:List of countries by public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, your comparison table is CIA produced nonsense. Using it as your central argument is indeed a blatant mistake, misconception, an assumption and complete misunderstanding. (To coin a phrase.)

bkkandrew

Just because you happen not to like an answer, doesn't mean that you have not been answered.

bkkandrew

Canada? - Nope, same structure as US.
Germany? - Nope, same structure as US.

Butterfly

here we go, going into circular mode as expected

first, I didn't look at that wiki where you claimed I got my numbers, it was from a different source, not wiki, so your whole conspiracy theory about me missing the "dispute" from the CIA was completely over the top and typical of your paranoia and silly clown mentality, I didn't even look at the page

Second, you seem to infer that the Federal Government is responsible for all debt, even private, indirectly by extra polling a scenario of the FDIC defaulting ??? I mean WTF, are you really that clueless ? why not go the whole route of USD debt in foreigner countries then ? should the Federal government be also responsible for Eurodollar defaulting ????

you say, but since you do not have the brain to analyze and discuss those kind of matters, I would suggest you stick to copy/paste of news clips.

Btw, still waiting for you to answer the question ? why not include Corporate Debt in your "estimate" ? I mean surely they are "important" as you put it ?

back to you troll,

bkkandrew

So where did you get it from then?

Seems a long paragraph to avoid telling us...

bkkandrew

The CIA Handbook that has measured debt to GDP %ages strangely excludes all debt other than Federal for the US figure, yet includes Municipal and State debt for comparable countries, such as Canada.

Quoting like with like would be a start.

bkkandrew

The FDIC, under its charter, would have to replenish its shortfall from the Treasury. After Indymac et al, the current reserve ratio is too low (according to its charter) and, indeed, this would add to the Federal debt.

bkkandrew

Corporate debt is not underwritten by the Treasury, except in exeptional circumstances (of which we are about to get a case in point - the Freddie and Fannie show).

Most US corporates simply file for bankruptcy when they become insolvent and unsecured creditors face the loss. So, no, apart from those institutions that have specifically been underwritten by the Treasure, the corporate debt figures have no place in the equation.

bkkandrew

Butterfly, much as I have enjoyed exposing your lack of knowledge over the past months, would it be possible to post in a slightly less rude manner and stick to the facts?