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Jet Gorgon

That's where I beg to differ, Bugs. I think the lower classes of both races will change for the worse if Obama gets in, with whiteys angry that a "nigga" is president and the blacks shoving the fact in their face. That's why I've focused on this the whole race. And you know what rural white folks are like when they see an "uppity" black, never mind folks in the South.
Sure, the educated folks will do fine, but I don't think America as a whole will be able to embrace a black president.

Norton

Not sure they can stand another white man in office for 8 years either!

The real question is; will bigotry override common sense?

Texpat

How many black mayors, governors have there been? Hundreds.

I don't think it's quite as dire as Jet alludes. Sure there are some fringe elements, but they don't represent anything significant.

Milkman

I agree with 2 points of your post on the class/socio-economic status, Jet.

But there are potential over-generalizations in the above post, IMO.

Yes, I do believe certain whites from certain geographical areas and certain socio-economic backgrounds will resent a black candidate. But how many (what %) we don't know. The US has changed, with more young people, more mixed races and marriages, and changing attitudes for the better, IMO.

The second part of your post I agree with (as I stated above) about the "educated" folks.

The 3rd part: I do think that the US can embrace a black President if he appoints good people to cabinet and bureaucratic positions, has popular stands on policies, and if the economy rebounds (even though the Prez has little to do with the Macro economy), IMO.

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Military men are dumb, stupid animals, to be used as pawns for foreign policy

Bugs

Actually much like the civil war has never ended for many in the south, I don’t think the battle for civil rights has died with many of the blacks or poor whites in the US. At the bottom end of the scale things are still pretty bad when it comes to race relations in the US. In reality it has more to do with economics than race, but race is an easy excuse. On that front I don’t know that thing could get any worse. The blacks don’t think they have been given enough, the whites think they have been given too much, the browns are wondering when folks are going to notice they are a minority too, and the yellow folk are simply trying to tip-toe thru the minefield and get an education.

What Obama seems to have done in many places is make folks wake up to the fact that race plays a larger part in how they see the world than most thought was the case. It has always been pretty easy to pigeonhole Mr. Jackson, and Mr. Sharpton and the such as such out to make things better for the black folks - only. This is not the case for Obama. He has been able to appeal to a larger cross-section with a message that is not only focused on the lowest tiers of society, and while he has certainly taken advantage of race where he can, he has not beat people over the head with the race issue.

That is why I think many white folks who never really thought themselves as racists are having a bit of a hard time right now. They seem to agree with Obama on the surface, yet they also have a problem thinking of him as the candidate of choice for the next president of the US.

I also disagree a bit with Tex when he says we have governors, senators, and congressmen/women that are black already. It is much easier based upon how congressional lines are drawn to vote in a minority/female into office in other races than it is in the presidential race. Granted with the electoral college the presidential race is not a straight popularity contest, but it is much more difficult to appeal across the nation than it is to appeal across a single state/ senate/ or congressional district.

I think it is more than just at the fring. Hence the polls where Obama is in the high 90's with the black vote, yet I have not seen a single poll where Obama has even been in the mid-high 40's with the white vote.

Race is an issue, and more so than most thought it would be. Even folks that thought race would not matter to them find themselves contemplating the race issue now that is smack in their faces.

From another point of view the ladies in the house must be a bit miffed that not only did the blacks beat them to the voting booth they have also beat them to the race for the oval office.

I must say however that things have progressed alot further than what I had though in the US. When I left the US to live in Asia about ten year ago I would give anyone odd on a female or a minority getting the top spot with no questions asked. Now it seems that both have a real shot - which IMHO is a good sign of how things have progressed, and again one of the reasons that I find at times that I actually pull for Obama to excell even though I don't agree with most of his policies.

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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion" - Steven Weinberg

Bugs

Not really an attempt to take things off the race issue but what the hell is Obama thinking with his current energy policy?

A generally negative review of the recently proposed Obama energy policy – out of those namby-pambies in SF none the less.

Obama goes for easy points on energy

Must say I generally agree with the SF assessment. Although I think they were being a bit harsh in the assessment. McCain seems to be getting extra credit from some reporters for flip-flopping on the off-shore issue sooner. And there is quite a bit of an economic difference between suspending the gas taxes (pennies on the gallon and a few dollars a month) as opposed to handing out $1000 dollar checks. Don’t get me wrong I think the Obama idea of taxing the oil companies to simply turn those dollars back over to the populace is a horrible idea and flies in the face of my idea of how a market should operate and the place of governments in said markets. But such a move would result in a real impact as opposed to suspending the gas tax which would IMHO have a minimal impact on individuals.

Obama unveils plan to deal with high energy prices - Muskegon Chronicle - MLive.com

Not to keen on the idea of the $4 billion in loans and tax credits for American auto plants and manufacturers either. Sure I would like to see the US manufacturers improve their positions in the market, but they have shown us time and again they do nothing but abuse any assistance given to them by the government and do little to truly strengthen their positions in the market.

On the flip side I have no problem with the $7K credit to motorists for buying more fuel-efficient cars as long as the credit was available for cars that meet efficiency criteria regardless of manufacturer.


Obama calls for end to foreign oil dependence in 10 years- Politics/Nation-News-The Economic Times

Pretty lofty goal - independent of foreign oil (middle east and Venezuela) in ten years? Limited offshore drilling, no nuclear, etc, etc, where in the hell are we going to get the power and be able to transfer out of foreign oil in 10 years?

I think the guys that wrote this speech were smoking some of the same stuff the speech writers where smoking that wanted an undivided Jerusalem as the capital of Israel during Obamas AIPAC speech.



BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Obama urges opening oil reserves

Obama urges opening oil reserves – WTF. I love the liberties some folks take to how they report on events. While Obama has indicated he would be willing to open up the oil reserves to help lower current gas prices. I would hardly categorize his comments as him urging it to happen. More like he is reluctantly agreeing to compromise on the idea (much like his reluctant agreement on the off-shore drilling). Still a far cry from urging it to happen IMHO.


As far the the engergy issue goes I sure hope Obama takes another hard look at things and what can/needs to be done to move the US ahead on the energy issue.

On the plus side Obama seems to have an open mind and his policy does not seem as confined as most of the reports in the press seem to indicated:
TRAIL BLAZERS Blog | The Dallas Morning News

As the artical says neighter McCain or Obama seem to be too far off what Pickens has said recently, but the real key will be getting any of these seemingly simply ideas placed into action - unified grid, more natural gas to tide the US over until we can make battery, wind, solar, etc (non carbon based fuels) real large scale alternatives.


For those of you out there looking for a good chuckle – here is Mitt Romney comparing Obama to “an Internet date”.
Mitt Romney: Obama an 'Internet date': The Swamp


And here is an editorial submission from the heart of WV about what the author feels is Obama’s “fear” of having the town-hall meetings with McCain.
Obama Fears Open Dialogue on Issues - The Intelligencer / Wheeling News-Register
I tend to agee with this point of view when it comes to debates. If someone wants to the top dog they should not shy away from a mono-on-mono deal like a town hall meeting IMHO.

The Hindu News Update Service


Ouch.. that hurt....

Sorry to say it appears the negative tilt of the current McCain crew seems to be working and therefore we are likely to see more of it. Heard one pundit on Anderson Cooper saying how the Paris/Britney ad while maybe not the slickest bit of work had basically been run/ reported in the print and video news for most of the week. Thus giving McCain about ten times the value for the ad as a standard ad. Polls first had McCain pulling even, then getting an edge, and now obtaining an edge that is close to or more than the margin of error in the polls. Thus giving McCain his first real edge in the polls since Obama locked up the blue team nomination. The result of which is sure to be more negative out of McCain until it is proven to be unaffective - if ever.

sabang

Doubts weaken Obama, polls show

White, independent voters hedge

Growing doubts among white working-class and independent voters blunted the momentum of Sen. Barack Obama's presidential run in recent days, leaving him in a tight contest with Republican candidate Sen. John McCain, pollsters say.
"His bubble hasn't burst, but it's leaking a little bit," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. "It is not massive. It is incremental, but we've seen it across the board in all of these states, that [Mr. McCain] is doing better among white voters, especially white voters without college educations."
Mr. Obama, Illinois Democrat, led by double digits earlier this summer but now barely edges out the Arizona Republican in most national polls. A Gallup daily tracking poll released Tuesday showed Mr. Obama with a four-point advantage but, for the first time since June, losing the battle for independents 43 percent to 40 percent.

Washington Times - Doubts weaken Obama, polls show

Still leading according to the Washington Post, but not by much.

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To err is human. To blame someone else is politics.

Norton

The idea of taxing oil companies or any others because they happen to make a large profit is not what either candidate should support.

Tax is just a part of overall cost when a company sets it's price. A ten percent increase in tax will likely result in a ten percent increase in the cost of the product. Raising tax on a particular industry sounds good politically to some but I can't see where it will significantly reduce the price of the product.

Raising taxes is merely a method of punishing success. There are many companies that have performed well in the profit arena. Taxation of their profits will increase government revenue proportionally to the increase in their profits. To suggest these successful companies be further tapped for more revenues makes no sense. Should the approach of increasing tax on success be adopted, it only follows the government should reward none performing companies by granting tax breaks or bailouts. The recent bailouts of lending institutions is an example of what I believe is rewarding bad business practices.

Government regulation of business practices is a must but rewarding failure or punishing success based on profitability is an area the government has no business getting involved in.

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There is such a thing as a nation being so right that it does not need to convince others by force that it is right.

Woodrow Wilson

Jet Gorgon

Good posts, Bugs, but I disagree on some points, as usual. As you noted, it's easier for minorities to be elected at the local and even state levels. Heck, in Canada, city councilmen and MLAs are non-English-speaking immigrants, and you can get info in several non-official languages for your district, even if the member is fekin white. The burbs stuffed with Chinese have a Chinese rep, same for the Indos. Just a comparison. But country leader? Don't think so.
OK, look at Chicago: how many black politicians do they have there and what's the B/W ratio? Ask Chitown.
The energy plan viz T. Boone Pickens. That's a fekin far stretch. T Boone is interested in alt energy, but what is he doing? He's buyin up all the water reservoirs in the Texas panhandle and any other place he can nearby coz he views water as the next must-have commodity with a price tag -- ie, it's going to run out and people will have to pay and he's going to be the seller. He knows oil is nearing its end and is looking to the future, like any sharp investor does. The blogger linking him to Obama viewpoints needs social study home tutoring.
I still have qualms about Obama in the Oval Office. Sure, he's the figure head for the dem team, but who is the dem team? What if there is another attack on America. Just too unstable and cocky for my liking.
Forgot: tax breaks to car cos? 555 Get the fekin unions outta there and make the mgmt turn the cos around like any smart bizperson should.

Milkman

I wish we could discuss Canada and the current Canadian situation. I think Jet and only a couple of others have enough knowledge, as their Canadian. I have relatives in Vancouver and Victoria, B.C., but they are older now. I wish I knew more. I've learned about Canada from Canadian expats I've befriended, but Jet, and anyone else, feel free to start a Canada thread, or offer info anytime.

T. Boone Pickens is one of the reasons why the US is not a democracy. 527 groups and pumping millions of dollars into them. Now his face is on the TV a lot.

The unions are an endangered species. Less than 10% of workers in the US belong to a union. I know of one industry, that if it goes non-union, will make it not even worth working in: lower pay with high cost of living, and a 401K.

This is when it's time to switch industries.

Texpat

Here's my take.

The military is nothing more than a microcosm of the US on whole. Granted it's not all elected, with the stuffings and nonsense involved -- it's merit based (not the Thai style, rather based on what you've accomplished.) No shortage of blacks, Asians, Jews, Hindus in the highest ranks.

We promoted a black to the highest military post who was subsequently launched to the Secretary of State. Roundly thought to be the third highest position in the US hierarchy. How many years ago was that? And he was a real black man!

Previously, every other black presidential candidate has been little more than a chuckle. I honestly think that Powell's respect as SecState (as a black man) set the stage for a black president someday. I know the UN speech detractors (nay the supporters, nay the naysayers, fuck, I'm confused) I recall thinking that he was a no-shit possibility when he was appointed.

This whole race issue in pres elections has not taken me by storm or surprise -- at all. I've thought since the late 90s America might have a black president someday. Perhaps it's because the military is mostly colorblind. Perhaps it's because I don't see inherent virtue or flaws in commanders of various colors.

I've served under commanders practicing the Muslim faith, Blacks, Asians ... I just can't see America basing it's decision in 2008 on color or religion.

The truth is America is almost 80 percent white. If a half-white guy can win. He's convinced a whole bunch of people he's interested in their well being.

Why has the term mullato never appeared in the past two years of Teak Door? Barrack Obama is the perfect black candidate. Because he's not.

Texpat

Just wondering out loud how a 46-year-old first term senator who's travel deficient (Americans are world-renowned for avoiding never travel within 20 miles of their birthplace) is capable of being better than GWB. Is this wishful thinking? Is this granting the chosen one carte blanch because he's a different hue? Can BO find your country in a 30-second quiz? Maybe. I'd give myself better odds.

Choose the pussy of your choice, I know whom I'm voting for. And it you're not voting ---




fuck off.

Bugs

And the Clintonites go marching to Denver:
Clinton backers to march during Democratic convention -- Newsday.com

Quote:

Clinton backers to march during Democratic convention WASHINGTON - Ardent Hillary Rodham Clinton backers plan to parade through Denver during the Democratic National Convention later this month in a last-ditch effort to win her the presidential nomination. In the nine weeks since Barack Obama became the Democrats' presumptive nominee, the New York-based grassroots organization called 18 Million Voices has spawned chapters and Web sites in more than half the states in an apparently massive online network. "First we were grieving and then we got angry," said Marilyn Fitterman of East Hampton, a member of the group and the former president of New York State National Organization of Women. "I feel there's hope now that Hillary may get the nomination," she said.

I kind of wonder if any of these nut cases will actucally vote for McCain after Obama officially gets the nomination, and Hillary is not tapped for the VP slot?

Certainly will be interesting (well it will be to me) to see how vocal they remain after the convention.

Jet Gorgon

Interesting, I try to quote or multiquote Milkman's post about my "Canada" comparison and T Boone view, and I get Texpat's post...

Still beg to differ, Middle America will not vote for bambam.

Boon Mee

The Obama Racist Test

1.If you think Obama's the most liberal member of the senate you...may be a racist.

2.If you object to Obama raising your payroll, capital gains and estate taxes you...may be a racist.

3.If you'd prefer a president have at least some foreign policy experience you...may be a racist.

4. If you're in favor of drilling for oil and building nuclear power plants you...may be a racist.

5. If you think "Vero Possemus" is Latin for "Massive Ego" you... may be a racist.

6. If you wonder why Obama was hanging around William Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn you...may be a racist.

7. If your pastor is nothing like Rev. Wright or Father Pfleger you... may be a racist.

8.If you don't want the majority of justices on the Supreme Court to be like Stephen Breyer you...may be a racist.

9. If you're not impressed with Obama's 100% NARAL rating you...may be a racist.

10. If you're not sure whether Obama opposed or supported FISA reauthorization you...may be a racist.

11. If you don't think America is a "downright mean" country you...may be a racist.

12. If you think Obama should've visited wounded troops at Ramstein and Landstuhl you...may be a racist.

13. If you think the surge is working and that's a good thing you...may be a racist.

14. If you oppose racial preferences in employment, school admissions and contracting you...may be a racist.

15. If you think "we are the change we've been waiting for" is a line from a Monty Python skit you...may be a racist.

16. If you prefer that a president have a smidgen of executive experience you...may be a racist.

17. If you're appalled that Obama voted against treating infants born after an abortion attempt the same medically as other infants born alive you...may be a racist.

18. If you were proud of your country even before Obama's candidacy you...may be a racist.

20. If you don't think American troops are just "air raiding villages" you...may be a racist.

21. If your grandmother isn't a "typical white person" you...may be a racist.

22. If you don't think rural, working class people are bitter and "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them" you...may be a racist.

23. If you're not sure invading Pakistan is a particularly good idea—what with their nuclear weapons and all— you...may be a racist.

24. If you don't want the president to meet without precondition with the leaders of state sponsors of terror you...may be a racist.

25. If you don't care how Hollywood or the European elite think you should vote you...may be a racist.

Basically, if you disagree with anything Obama has said, may say, or said, but now says he didn't say, you are a racist!


http://anti-strib.blogspot.com/

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raycarey

racist? who knows. more than a few racists here in the TD issues section that's for sure--but that's another thread.

anyway, if someone does believe that obama is the most liberal senator then they're just a buffoon who believes everything they read in the national journal. btw, guess who the national journal named the most liberal senator in 2003...john kerry....just in time for the 2004 election. shocking, huh?

honestly, how could anyone believe that obama is more liberal than russ feingold, ted kennedy, barbara boxer or bernie sanders---who's a socialist for god's sake.

and for a good laugh, take a look at what the national journal decided to be 'liberal' and 'conservative'. according to the national journal,

requiring 100% inspections of shipping containers for national security threats is a 'liberal' position.

establishing english as the official language of the US is a 'conservative' position.

and if you want to investigate further into what a joke this ranking is, take a look at how they dealt with missed votes.

i can't be bothered to knock down the remaining nonsensical points on the above list, but rest assured that they're equally ludicrous.

Jet Gorgon

^ I think you missed the irony of it, Ray. Welcome back, BTW. Can I buy you a caps key or are you continuing your holier-than-thou spree?

Boon Mee

'Ol Jason is back from climbing mountains with Beth & Rafferty!

Bugs

Can't they all just get along?

Obama partisans block Clinton faction bid to end caucuses -- chicagotribune.com

Quote:

Obama partisans block Clinton faction bid to end caucuses

Party unity eludes Dems at platform meeting - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

And here is the party platform:
Marc Ambinder (August 07, 2008) - Obama's Democratic Platform Includes New Governance Planks, Emphases On Women, Fatherhood

Bugs

More fodder provided by the Clinton camp:

Adviser told Hillary Clinton to attack Barack Obama on 'lack' of U.S. roots
And some interesting hindsight on the Hillary fall:
Clinton told to portray Obama as foreign - Politico.com Print View