The Thailand expat forum for Travel, Lifestyle and Fun.

Jet Gorgon

^ Um, no, Norty, that's not what I meant at all.
If Bammer saves all that money from an Iraq pullout, why raise taxes.
My implication as you point out is nothing what you just implied. People who paid for uni or who worked hard to get a well-paying job desrve to make more money. Actually, anybody with a brain who goes out and creates something and makes gobs of money deserves it, too, IMO. What, just coz I was born I should deserve handouts so I can loaf around? NO.
"where all those rich people make money" was tongue in cheek.

Norton

Of course they do. But let's keep in mind a good portion of the 97% not earning $250k per year have done the same. I was one and stupidly being an engineer, never earned $250k per year! Guess I should have been a fund manager.

Bugs

This peaked my interest a bit and I did some poking around and it appears you might be on to something here. In that some folks both inside the Obama camp and McCain camp seem to think Obama might not fair too well in "town hall" type debates. I have only seen (on the telly) Obama in a few open (non-prepared) speaking type deals and he seems to carry himself rather well in the ones that I had seen. But others (more informed than me) seem to have different opinions.

One rather short but fairly encompassing example:
The Weekly Standard

I also came across a few Obama gaffs that are a bit reminiscent of GWB and how his sticks his foot in his mouth:

__________________
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion" - Steven Weinberg

Milkman

Obama gaffs? Sticks foot in mouth? I am sure he has and does.

Just like McCain, but much less often.

And remember, GWB, has stuck his foot in his mouth many, many, times, before and during both of his election campains in 2000 and 2008.

My point:

"Gaffs" for Obama are too rare, and too far and few between to be an issue for him.

For McCain, it might be.

__________________
Military men are dumb, stupid animals, to be used as pawns for foreign policy

Bugs

So why not accept McCain town hall meetings?

Jet Gorgon

^ Exactly. Perhaps Obama has made fewer gaffes coz most of his stuff is on the tele-prompter.

sabang

McCain appeals best to a Town Hall- by all accounts he's usually an affable, folksy kinda guy (apart from his notoriously foul outbursts of temper). Obama is a communicator more comparable to Kennedy. Why should he bother debating him in some Town Hall? He's ahead anyway, and the lead will likely increase. No disrespect to the good folk of Lincoln Nebraska or wherever, but Obama is speaking to the Nation.

__________________
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

raycarey

because he's so far ahead in nearly every poll taken. why should he be on the same stage with mccain? fair or not, this is how political campaigns are run.

and btw, some of mccain's biggest gaffes have been in these town hall meetings....'bomb, bomb, iran', and not rebuking a questioner for calling hillary clinton a bitch, etc...

a fred barnes opinion piece in bill kristol's neo-con rag is hardly the place to go for a non partisan perspective on barack obama.

and btw, at mccain's most recent 'town hall', no democrats were allowed in.

Texpat

Why would Obama agree to a town hall meeting where he might actually have to come up with answers about Iran, AIPAC, how to pay for his health care plan and why he hasn't been to Iraq for 900 days?

If I were him, I wouldn't want to answer random questions from critics either.

raycarey

what answers about iran hasn't he given? is there something that you don't understand about his position? have you even bothered to look?

Barack Obama | Foreign Policy__Iran


of course this has already been answered...there were ~20 democratic debates and the only major issue on which obama and clinton had significant disagreement was health care. how could you not know this?

anyway, here's his position...

Barack Obama| Health Care

perhaps the biggest red herring that is currently being disseminated by mccain and his lackeys.

a US senator and presumptive democratic nominee for president isn't going to be allowed anywhere near a dangerous area in iraq....surely you must know this, right?

so texpat, what would be accomplished by his going to iraq exactly?

and as a member of the senate foreign relations committe, he has already heard petraeus' honest testimony, hasn't he? or was patreus not being forthright when he testified?

and if it's so important for political leaders to actually be in iraq, why don't you tell us how many HOURS bush has spent in iraq since the invasion. that's right, it will be marked in hours, not days or weeks.

Milkman

I think it's part of Obama's campaign strategy.

And, to piggy-back off of Norton's comments somewhere, McCain has less money, and a Town Hall debate is free airtime for McCain.

I just read an article about Obama's subtle shift, as the campaign nears the election. Access is carefully thought about, and any pics of him are carefully being managed.

Bugs

Yea why worry about fair or not, and why not run the Obama campaign just like every other political campaign - some candidate for change there.

Did not pick the piece because I thought it was non partisan. As I stated I picked it because it was fairly short and seemed to cover what many were saying in general.

raycarey

such drama.

let's try to remember that it's only the middle of june, and the election isn't until november. there will be plenty of time for debates.....and i have little doubt that a 'town hall' style forum will figure in somewhere.

Bugs

Speaking of the candidate for change. Seems that the candidate for change is more of the same ol' same ol' and will renege in regard to his earlier comments:

http://www.commoncause.org/atf/cf/%7...NALRELEASE.PDF

Sure he made that commitment before he knew he would be far in the lead in regard to fundraising. But in order for some kind of deal like what he proposed to be struck it would require the campaign with the fundraising edge to concede that advantage. Seems Obama thought that would be fair when he probably thought it would be the red team making the concession, but now that he would have to be the one making the concession it probably won't happen. Seems like politics as usual to me, and not so much change.

Then again maybe he is just waiting to officially become the Democratic nominee? (but I doubt it)

sabang

Yes, why? Unlike several previous would-be President Democratic contenders, Obama is playing to win. It is possible for democrats to learn some things from republicans you know- even though, ultimately they would not stoop as low as Rovian tactics..

Apparently, you have a problem with that.

Texpat

Texas GOP discriminates against alternative lifestyle vendors at state convention.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080618/D91CLLBG6.html

"We don't allow pedophiles, transvestites or cross-dressers, either," then-GOP spokesman Robert Black said.

I'm sure that will absolutely outrage many TD libs. It's just not fair, is it?

Bugs

My main problem with the politicking is related to the "candidate for change" banner Obama continously waves. If you want to hold yourself up as not being like the rest of them then put your money where your mouth is and take action. Don't talk the talk and then when push comes to shove hide behind "it makes sense for the campaign" rhetoric. If Obama already has to resort to that kind of rhetoric this eary in the general election campaign why should anyone believe he will doing anything but politics as usual should he secure the top job?

McCain and Obama don't have the smoothest of histories and I would venture to guess as this campaign unfolds there will be just as much (if not more) mud slinging and nastiness from all sides as there has been in the past.

I love it when folks talk about how nasty Rove is/was. All Rove did was refine what the Clintons brought to the table, and what tactics helped to secure the top job for the Clintons two times running. Interestingly enough whenever Hillary or Bill went down a similar path in the primaries the blue team electorate punished them for it and Obama continuously came out on top. But the general election is different from primaries. I don't think either team's electorate takes too kindly to that kind of mud slinging in the primaries because at that stage the candidates are still all from the same team. But the general election is a different story and the electorate seems to eat up the mud.

IMHO Obama will fair far better in the upcoming debates than many seem to think. The guy is no dummy and generally carries himself rather well (from what I have seen). If anything I am anxious to see how things unfold in the town hall type debates in regard to both McCain and Obama. Both have made comments about not running their campaigns with all the mud slinging and nastiness of the past. And while neither of them can really control/prevent any nastiness from taking place, in a town hall format we should be able to see for ourselves how each carries themselves in this regard face-to-face.

sabang

More to the point Tex, just more votes in the bag for Obama. Them rednecks are only going to vote one way anyway, whereas a few more undecided voters will swing Obamas way on the back of their disgruntlement with this sort of attitude.

Norton

Texas, the belt buckle of the bible belt. Even the Dems know better than to allow those "San Francisco" perverts into the state convention.

sabang

^^^ Decent post Bugs. Obama will go down this road in due course and 'take up the challenge', I agree. Basically though, it is to his benefit to string McCain along for a bit longer yet- he can play his fiddle more succesfully to a wider audience right now, frustrate his opponent, and as you said, he will be no easy pckings in a debate- indeed may well be the winner.

Unlike so many previous Democratic campaigns, the Obama team is playing smart imo.